Right Doing and Rewards

[jiii]

This question has been partially insipred by a different thread in the 'Alternative' forum, but I'm approaching it from a different angle.

Why is it that many religions seem to promote doing good or being compassionate by offering some kind of reward in the afterlife? Isn't this a case of being so unsatisfied with doing good that we must believe we will be rewarded in a future time? Doesn't this system simply encourage people to do good for selfish reasons, and diminish and obscure our sense of "doing good being its own reward"?

Hypothetically speaking, what if we found that a heaven, in its many varied forms world-wide, did not actually exist? Would it suddenly be acceptable to turn violent, pillage our neighbors home, kill indiscriminantly in vengeance, rape, plunder, steal, etc, etc? Because, after all, there is no reward for doing good anymore besides doing good for its own sake...and by and large, that apparently seems to be a pretty unattractive idea. It seems that very few people are really satisfied with that, you know...they want something for it. 'What's in in for me?', they ask...and it still seems as if many people still need some kind of reward for being compassionate. Frankly, I can only see this leading to a terribly affectacious and phony brand of compassion. The ultimate in selfishness, you know, because it hides one's selfishness very cleverly. They don't have to be selfish outwardly...no, no...they can be selfish inwardly. They can conceal it almost perfectly, go around doing good deed after good deed with a seeming selflessness, yet the whole time their mouth is just watering thinking about the glorious spoils they will receive after their death. The fact that one's fellow man is cared for compassionately is, in this view, really just a pleasant bonus. The real point is to get the gold in the afterlife.

What are everyone's ideas about this?

 

[jiii]

Believe it or not, I intended to post this question in the 'Belief and Spirituality' forum. When I refreshed the page I saw I posted it here. Thus, if it is not moved, let me specify this:

I am not trying to rip on Abrahamic religions, necessarily. My post did not refer to Heaven, but 'heavens'. The idea of a rewarding afterlife is not, in any stretch of the concept, unique to Abrahamic religions.

I wanted to note this before people began responding as if I was attacking Abrahamic faiths. Frankly, it actually isn't even an attack...merely a strongly worded inquiry, really...which will hopefully be received with strong responses. I'm referring to the general idea of a reward in the afterlife, not any specific religious view of such a thing. That would complicate the issue too much to really discuss the meat and potatoes of this inquiry.

 

[Saltmeister]

Believe it or not, I intended to post this question in the 'Belief and Spirituality' forum. When I refreshed the page I saw I posted it here. Thus, if it is not moved, let me specify this:

I am not trying to rip on Abrahamic religions, necessarily. My post did not refer to Heaven, but 'heavens'. The idea of a rewarding afterlife is not, in any stretch of the concept, unique to Abrahamic religions.

I wanted to note this before people began responding as if I was attacking Abrahamic faiths. Frankly, it actually isn't even an attack...merely a strongly worded inquiry, really...which will hopefully be received with strong responses. I'm referring to the general idea of a reward in the afterlife, not any specific religious view of such a thing. That would complicate the issue too much to really discuss the meat and potatoes of this inquiry.

Well . . . maybe doing good isn't the most important thing in life after all.

It might, for example, be more important to have good relationships. ie. a good relationship with God. Make yourself known and understood. Explain yourself. Be valued and appreciated. Share life with other people. Make your feelings felt. Drain it out of your system. It's about taking as well as giving. It's about sharing.

It's a bit selfish I admit, but at least you're being honest, open and personable to others, which I think is more important than doing good all the time.

Perhaps it's just impossible to keep up the effort of doing good. So let's not fool ourselves : we're not superhuman or demigods. We are mortals with weaknesses and limitations. The brute force approach to goodness never does that much good.

It could be, that after reaching our pinnacle of goodness in our efforts to do good, we have nowhere to go but down. That's when people start judging you.

Life is a journey, so let's share it. Let's do it together. We don't all have to be so high and mighty at once. We don't have to be so strong all the time.

If we try to be strong all the time, people will start expecting us to be strong all the time. I would rather that people didn't expect so much from me. I prefer starting off as an untidy, dishevelled, disoriented and messed-up wreck and work my way slowly upwards to a position where I can have the dignity I need. Only then can I start helping people. But right now I just have to help myself.

 

[Dondi]

It's funny that this topic would come up, for in my own investigation, I have come up with interesting observations on my own in this matter.

Because I had been so inbred with the idea of a reward of an afterlife, seeing that I was motivated to seek this as well as avoid the unpleasant alternative of Hell, I accepted Christ on that basis. Now it may very well that the way everything wired that the very word "salvation" gives the connotation of escape from the eternal abyss. It was my original thought that we are motivated toward the Lord through fear initially, and by this we will come to God for that basic selfish reason of avoiding that fate. Then, after knowing our eternity is secure in Christ, supposedly we can begin to live in Christ and learn to love others as God has demonstrated His love for us in the aforementioned salvation.

On the surface, it appears that we do come to God for our lives, for our self-preservation. And knowing that Christ died for our sins and saves us via the work of the Cross, we can be confident in living for Him.

Unfortunately, many people fall into the idea that once one is good to go, they no longer have to worry about the consequences of judgement for that is already dealt with on the Cross. So then for many, the Christian life becomes anemic through complacency. Salvation is taken for granted and becomes little more than fire insurance. Does that make sense?

I used to be in that catagory.

But then it started making less and less sense to rely wholly on grace, for the the sake of grace. I didn't understand the true purpose of salvation until I stripped down my Christian orientation down to the bare minimum. For one, I couldn't deal with the idea that people of other religions and/or ignorant of the saving knowledge of Jesus were, by default, destined for an eternal hell. It seemed as if obedience to God was meaningless if it didn't involve Christ. But it didn't make sense to me that God would not consider a person's heart, even though Jesus wasn't prominate in their lives.

And in my investigation, I went back to the root of Christianity...namely Judaism. What I found is that Judaism doesn't stress the eternal life as much as they emphasize life in the here and now. That the motivation in obeying God through the observance of the Torah was in itself the reward, for this dealt with the concept of loving God and loving your neighbor as yourself.See here:

http://www.jewfaq.org/olamhaba.htm

So it appears that the emphasis on the afterlife is primarily a Christian tradition, probagated by Jesus and the early church.

So having studied Judaism for a time, and seriously considering converting or at least becoming a Noachide (A gentile believer in the Jewish God), I apporached the Gospels in a different light. I consentrated with the teachings of Jesus to see what agreement He had on the Jewish orientation and found that indeed He did. I've come to the realization that the passages concerning Hell have a deeper meaning that the Christian tradition of a literal lake of fire, though I don't completely dismiss that idea.

I have many more thoughts on the subject that I'm willing to discuss in depth. But i will say that I have a new perspective on the idea of salvation that I've been told is more of an Eastern Orthodox view rather than a Evangelical one that I've been familiar with all my life. And that it has been a refreshing change for me.

 

[Dor]

We are all saved by grace through faith and the Spirit is where our good works come from.
We do get rewards in heaven and different crowns based on what we do while we are here.

The difference in Christianity is God knows what is in our hearts.
If we are doing good and we are thinking oh cool there are more rewards in heaven. Then we are doing them for ourselves not for the Spirit.
We are told what our good deeds are when we do them for ourself.
Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

 

[jiii]

saltmeister:

It's a bit selfish I admit, but at least you're being honest, open and personable to others, which I think is more important than doing good all the time.

This is certainly a good point. I am reminded of a lecture by Alan Watts (to paraphrase): "A great deal of damage is done in our personal affairs because of our lack of honesty. We commit ourselves to things that we only ideally believe we ought to do, and that we simply aren't going to actually come through with." His sentiment here was...'be honest with yourself, not everyone is a saint merely because he wills himself to be so.' However, I do think that this message is slightly different than what I'm referring to. My question is more along the lines of: If we are going to be compassionate for selfish reasons, then what does it say about our compassion? Is it really compassion, after all? And isn't compassion driven by selfishness susceptible to becoming damaging to ourselves or people that are in need of compassion?

dondi:

Because I had been so inbred with the idea of a reward of an afterlife, seeing that I was motivated to seek this as well as avoid the unpleasant alternative of Hell, I accepted Christ on that basis.

So far as Christianity, specifically, this is also an interesting point. Bertrand Russel wrote a book titled "Why I Am Not a Christian" in which, among many other points, he specifically mentioned that he felt that a doctrine that motivated people to do good in order to prevent a fiery and torturous afterlife in Hell was ultimately a pretty cruel piece of doctrine...one that honored the concept of vengeance in the most appalling way. Maybe Russell's point is a bit exaggerated, but he makes sense. Is being compassionate or doing right done for the purpose of getting to a heaven of some kind (reward), or avoiding damnation (preventative), or both?

dor:
Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

I'm not sure if this sentiment is widely reflected in most religions that predict spoils in the afterlife...perhaps it ought to be?

 

[seattlegal]

Why is it that many religions seem to promote doing good or being compassionate by offering some kind of reward in the afterlife? Isn't this a case of being so unsatisfied with doing good that we must believe we will be rewarded in a future time? Doesn't this system simply encourage people to do good for selfish reasons, and diminish and obscure our sense of "doing good being its own reward"?

Well, if you consider Mark 10:28-31, you will see that those who forgo accumulating land, wealth, and family in favor of going out and helping people and spreading the gospel will be rewarded in this life with hundreds of houses and families where they will be welcomed as one of their own. {Those families that you help will welcome you into their families.} In this sense, "doing good is its own reward," with a hundredfold increase, in this life. {which is the common sense approach} Also mentioned is the persecutions you might also have to endure by following this course, and the promise of eternal life in the age to come might serve as a comfort to those undergoing persecution. {compare Matt 5:10-12 The persecution could certainly "weed out" those who in it for purely "selfish reasons."}

28 Then Peter began to say to Him, “See, we have left all and followed You.”
29 So Jesus answered and said, “Assuredly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My sake and the gospel’s, 30 who shall not receive a hundredfold now in this time—houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands, with persecutions—and in the age to come, eternal life. 31 But many who are first will be last, and the last first.”

 

[Caimanson]

My question is more along the lines of: If we are going to be compassionate for selfish reasons, then what does it say about our compassion? Is it really compassion, after all? And isn't compassion driven by selfishness susceptible to becoming damaging to ourselves or people that are in need of compassion?

I agree with that statement, however I don't think that all believers will necessarily fall in that category. People can be genuinely compassionate, for various reasons, regardless of what beliefs they have.
I think it is sad that some parts of the NT seem to encourage people to serve god as a way of investing in eternity. Either salvation is unconditional by Grace, or salvation is by works, not both. In christianity part of the problem is that it can be hard to grasp Grace, they don't understand that they cannot earn it so they try to measure up, to pay back as much as they can because deep down they don't really believe God's love, they think there is a trap or catch somewhere.

I think most religions do offer something to hold on to, some kind of security or benefit, Heaven is one of them.

I recently saw a quote by Albert Camus: "For if there is a sin against life, it consists perhaps not so much in despairing of life as in hoping for another life and in eluding the implacable grandeur of this life"

When people struggle and are dissatisfied with life, sometimes it seems easier to focus on eternity rather than trying to make the best of this life (If I cannot succeed in this life I'll put up with it, and perhaps I'll be luckier on the next one ).

 

[kenod]

If we are doing good and we are thinking oh cool there are more rewards in heaven. Then we are doing them for ourselves not for the Spirit.

I'm sure you feel much the same as me, Dor (as one "Bible thumper" to another), it is because God loves us and forgives us and helps us that we want to be loving and forgiving and helpful to others. There is a change in our nature that makes us want to be Christ-like. Most of what I do is in appreciation for what He has done for me. And the only way I can do anything for Him, is to do it for others.

 

[kenod]

oops ... got a repeat!

 

[cavalier]

I remember talking with a Buddhist friend back in England about this stuff. I don't know if this is a Buddhist teaching or just his idea, but he said there were three levels of doing good, and that each successive level would bring you more positive karma.
On the first level, you do good for the positive karma you will receive.
On the second level, you do good for the sake of others, for the positive karma they might receive.
On the third level you forget all about karma and do good just for the sake of doing good.

The less you think about reward and gain, the greater will be the reward you receive.

 

[Quahom1]

I remember talking with a Buddhist friend back in England about this stuff. I don't know if this is a Buddhist teaching or just his idea, but he said there were three levels of doing good, and that each successive level would bring you more positive karma.
On the first level, you do good for the positive karma you will receive.
On the second level, you do good for the sake of others, for the positive karma they might receive.
On the third level you forget all about karma and do good just for the sake of doing good.

The less you think about reward and gain, the greater will be the reward you receive.

"if he asks for your shirt, give him your cloak as well. If he wants you to walk a mile, go two miles with him..."

First we got the golden rule...then we understood what the golden rule actually meant...