Jehovah's Witness I Need Your Help

Hi Dor.

Dor said:
Lets extend the context just a few verses and see who was being talked about.

Rev 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
Rev 1:12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
Rev 1:13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
Emphasis added.
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Unfortunately, the words "I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last:" in verse 11 that you quote above have long been recognized as a spurious addition to the text. That is, it was added by some scribe long after the book of Revelation was written. The best manuscripts do not contain those words, and neither do most modern translations, such as the NASB, NIV, etc. Why do you think someone would try to add those words to the text?
Dor said:
Mark2:10 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,)
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I take it from this that you believe this 'proves' that Jesus is God. That is not true. Jesus was given this power, just as he gave it to his apostles. (Matthew 28:18; John 20:23) This power didn't make the apostles God did it?

Dor said:
Matthew 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
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Yes, Jesus is sitting "on the right hand of power" which means "the right hand of God." (Acts 2:33) He is at the right hand of the Father.
Dor said:
And there are even more of them....where was the father ever spoken of as the son of man?
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He wasn't. Jesus is the Son of Man. Keep them coming if there are more of them.


TJ
 
Hi Dor.

Dor said:
OK we can go in circles for days. I prefer my Majority text KJV. You prefer your NWT.
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I didn't think we were going in circles and I didn't quote from the NWT. I quoted from other, popular, modern translations.

Perhaps you could explain to me how you understand the verses below.

John 17:1-3 (KJV)
"These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."

Notice that Jesus is speaking to his Father when he calles him "the only true God" and then mentions himself apart from "the only true God." Do you still view Jesus as "the only true God," and if so why?

Thanks.


TJ
 
TJ1 said:
Hi Dor.


I didn't think we were going in circles and I didn't quote from the NWT. I quoted from other, popular, modern translations.

Perhaps you could explain to me how you understand the verses below.

John 17:1-3 (KJV)
"These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."

Notice that Jesus is speaking to his Father when he calles him "the only true God" and then mentions himself apart from "the only true God." Do you still view Jesus as "the only true God," and if so why?

Thanks.


TJ
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Last time I checked, and is an inclusive, not a detractor. Also, since we could not see God fully in the old testament, I see no reason why we would suddenly be able to see God fully in the New testament. God Jesus (taking on the mantle of man) beats a bush, and a whirl wind, anyday.
 
Yes as a matter of fact I do.

Jesus is God in human flesh. He is not some half god half man thing or Michael. He is fully God and fully man. With two distinct natures.
So in this single person of Jesus is both a divine and human nature.

The divine nature was not changed, it was not altered, he is not merely a man who "had God within him" or "manifested the God principle" or "reached the Christ conscience(sp)".
He is simply God(2nd part of the trinity). The 2 natures are not mixed at all.

So as a man when he needed to pray he prayed to the Father.
 
Quahom1 said:
Last time I checked, and is an inclusive, not a detractor.
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i was just thinking that myself. the mystery of god (jesus christ) is first listed because from the beginning god has hidden all things in him, then jesus christ is listed because he has been made known. it is all inclusive "and".
 
Quahom1 said:
Last time I checked, and is an inclusive, not a detractor.
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So at Matthew 10:2-4, where it says, "These are the names of the twelve apostles: first, Simon (who is called Peter) and his brother Andrew; James son of Zebedee, and his brother John; Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus; Simon the Zealot and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed him," (NIV) you see these as inclusive?


TJ
 
BlaznFattyz said:
that is quite correct.
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He put aside His "God Head". Quite ironic, that He showed us what we could eventually become (and what we were supposed to be in the beginning), in total communion with God, and fully (willingly) subject to His will.
 
TJ1 said:
So at Matthew 10:2-4, where it says, "These are the names of the twelve apostles: first, Simon (who is called Peter) and his brother Andrew; James son of Zebedee, and his brother John; Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus; Simon the Zealot and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed him," (NIV) you see these as inclusive?


TJ
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yes, I do see the inclusive. Everyone of those men had an inclusive role to play in the perfection of God's ideal for mankind. I see no contradiction. Indeed, without them, there would have been flaws, yet there were none.
 
Quahom1 said:
yes, I do see the inclusive. Everyone of those men had an inclusive role to play in the perfection of God's ideal for mankind. I see no contradiction. Indeed, without them, there would have been flaws, yet there were none.
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So are you saying that Peter is himself Andrew, James is himself John, Philip is himself Bartholomew, etc.? Isn't this what you're doing with John 17:3, saying Jesus is himself "the only true God?"


TJ
 
TJ1 said:
So are you saying that Peter is himself Andrew, James is himself John, Philip is himself Bartholomew, etc.? Isn't this what you're doing with John 17:3, saying Jesus is himself "the only true God?"


TJ
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I am called Q, and Quahom, and I have a personal name...does that make me three different people? Or one, manifested in three different ways, depending upon the circumstances?
 
Quahom1 said:
I am called Q, and Quahom, and I have a personal name...does that make me three different people? Or one, manifested in three different ways, depending upon the circumstances?
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So you are saying that Jesus and his Father are the same person? He calls his Father "the only true God." I don't see how Jesus fits into that scripturally.


TJ
 
TJ1 said:
So you are saying that Jesus and his Father are the same person? He calls his Father "the only true God." I don't see how Jesus fits into that scripturally.


TJ
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I don't know TJ. He also is clear that He is in the Father and the Father is in Him. He states He is the Alpha and Omega. He makes it clear that He created the heavens and the earth, that He was before the beginning of time, and likes to point out very human concepts of time to drive His point home to us in ways we can understand, that He is the author of life. He also does not stop us from worshipping Him (something reserved only for God, a very jealous God at that). However, if He is God, then there is NO CONFLICT in what HE HAS DECLARED, to man.
 
Quahom1 said:
I don't know TJ. He also is clear that He is in the Father and the Father is in Him. He states He is the Alpha and Omega. He makes it clear that He created the heavens and the earth, that He was before the beginning of time, and likes to point out very human concepts of time to drive His point home to us in ways we can understand, that He is the author of life. He also does not stop us from worshipping Him (something reserved only for God, a very jealous God at that). However, if He is God, then there is NO CONFLICT in what HE HAS DECLARED, to man.
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I've addressed most of these points earlier in this thread. Perhaps you'd like to interact with what I've posted?

Otherwise, you could provide your evidence to back up these claims and we can discuss it anew.


TJ
 
TJ1 said:
I've addressed most of these points earlier in this thread. Perhaps you'd like to interact with what I've posted?

Otherwise, you could provide your evidence to back up these claims and we can discuss it anew.


TJ
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Apparently not "satisfactorilly", nor do you have to, you see. And you certainly do not have to answer to the likes of me TJ.

I would love to debate you on the merits of one form of Christian faith vs. another, but I'm not at liberty to "hoard the board" as it were. Nor, would I wish to subject you to being overwhelmed upon. I think you see the wisdom of my thought here.

Besides, what is a chess game anyway? You believe, that is all that matters. I believe, we all believe that Jesus is the savior of man...yes?
 
TJ1 said:
Hi Dor.


I didn't think we were going in circles and I didn't quote from the NWT. I quoted from other, popular, modern translations.

Perhaps you could explain to me how you understand the verses below.

John 17:1-3 (KJV)
"These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."

Notice that Jesus is speaking to his Father when he calles him "the only true God" and then mentions himself apart from "the only true God." Do you still view Jesus as "the only true God," and if so why?

Thanks.


TJ
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Take a look at verse 5:
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. John 17:5 (KJV)
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Chris
 
TJ1 said:
So you are saying that Jesus and his Father are the same person? He calls his Father "the only true God." I don't see how Jesus fits into that scripturally.


TJ
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the father, the son, and the holy spirit are the three manifestations that make up the one true living god. jesus is not on earth as a man anymore, he is back with the father in heaven, yet now he is glorified in body and spirit above all things and that has been given to him by the father, whom he was with before all things.
 
Quahom1 said:
Apparently not "satisfactorilly", nor do you have to, you see. And you certainly do not have to answer to the likes of me TJ.
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That's fine, but it's not much of a discussion then. If you fell I haven't answered them adequately, it would be interesting to see where you believe I went wrong.

Quahom1 said:
I would love to debate you on the merits of one form of Christian faith vs. another, but I'm not at liberty to "hoard the board" as it were. Nor, would I wish to subject you to being overwhelmed upon. I think you see the wisdom of my thought here.
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You make a good point; I would probably have a tough time answering you as well as others in the limited amount of time I have. :eek:;)


Take care Quahom1,
TJ
 
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