Spong's 12 theses

China Cat Sunflower said:
Yeah, that's exactly it. I just can't partition my mind where one part doesn't have to measure up to the same intellectual standards.

I can't discount mainstream Bible scholarship. I can't accept the Bible as history when archaeology tells a much different story.

The concept of original sin makes no sense to me. As allegory, sure, but not in any real historical sense.

The idea of a dead and risen avatar-messiah-saviour seems impossibly anachronistic to me. It's an uncomfortable mix of Jewish and Pagan elements that doesn't gell.

I can't see why the Logos would be the above avatar. I think one can gain an appreciation for the Logos concept by studying the Jesus character, though.

I can't conceive of God being in any way interventionist. I don't necessarily disagree with the Christian conception of God, I just think that the way it's usually put over is entirely too simplistic, and often downright silly. Surely everyone knows that God Itself is entirely beyond description. That's why no one has "seen" IT. Mainly, though, the problem for me is that if God intervenes in the affairs of humans directly, then there's no point in ever learning to use one's deductive intellectual faculties. Everything is a big conspiracy because nothing can be trusted to be what it seems. I just can't live like that.

So there you go. I don't believe the Bible is historically reliable. I don't believe in original sin. I think the idea of a messiah avatar is primitive, sometimes barbaric, and entirely anachronistic. I don't believe Jesus is literally the Logos. And I don't believe in the miraculous because I don't think God is that sort of thing . Doesn't seem very Alpha and Omega-ish.

So what kind of organized Christianity might appeal to someone like me? I consider myself a Christian--at least ethnically and philosophically. I'm not a syncretist (anymore), or an atheist, nor a deist, pantheist, panentheist, Buddhist, Pagan. I like the Tao, but that's also just philosophical. I appreciate Spong trying to figure out a way to have a Christianity that I, and he I'm sure, could find pleasant and meaningful. I guess he's saying he's found a way to do it for himself, but I haven't.

Chris
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Why do you want to be part of organized Christianity? I would say it's not about you. You can get that (your own personal spirituality whatever it may be) on your own. My take on it is that being a Christian is about choosing a way that takes us outside our own way. But that's just me.

Maybe what Spong does for you and others (and me) is to give us permission to seek in our own way what Christ is all about. Yeah, I know, we don't need permission, but there seem to be very few voices out there today saying it's OK to question and to look at things differently.

FWIW, I found the book The Heart of Christianity by Marcus Borg to be very helpful when I was re-entering Christianity with all the same ideas and reservations you state above. He helped me find the meaning in the stories of the Bible and to focus on what they are pointing at, rather than getting all hung up in the literal-metaphorical debate. Yet he does not throw out God, Christ, and the Bible along the way.

luna
 
Well, I think that Spong is trying to do several things. For one thing he's trying to get people to catch up on the state of the intellectual debate over the origins, context, and historicity of the Bible. But I think his main focus is to reach out to people like me and say that there is the possibility of light ahead. There is another alternative to just chucking it all and becoming a hard boiled atheist. I appreciate that.

Chris
 
China Cat Sunflower said:
Well, I think that Spong is trying to do several things. For one thing he's trying to get people to catch up on the state of the intellectual debate over the origins, context, and historicity of the Bible. But I think his main focus is to reach out to people like me and say that there is the possibility of light ahead. There is another alternative to just chucking it all and becoming a hard boiled atheist. I appreciate that.

Chris
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If Spong is a "wake up call" for people otherwise asleep...then who am I to argue with him?

v/r

Joshua
 
lunamoth said:
Why do you want to be part of organized Christianity?
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This could be a fun one, organized v. disorganized Christianity. Between all the various denominations of 'acceptable' Christianity, and then the numerous groups who are also organized and claim often to be the only true Christians yet are regularly ostacized for their vocal views on what is deemed not acceptable...even the emerging church is organized...

For years I wavered out there in a disorganized Christianity, not finding a home in any church I attended. Don't think I ever truly made it to atheist or even agnostic completely...but the portions of the church experience that turned me off one after another, kept me out of believing I needed an organized Christianity ie a building, a congregation, a preacher...

How wrong I was, how much more enriched and comfortable my life has been since I did. In truth though it is the Spongs, those that tilted at windmills, looked for the essence despite the contradiction, that is what kept me willing, barely willing to keep searching.
 
wil said:
This could be a fun one, organized v. disorganized Christianity. Between all the various denominations of 'acceptable' Christianity, and then the numerous groups who are also organized and claim often to be the only true Christians yet are regularly ostacized for their vocal views on what is deemed not acceptable...even the emerging church is organized...

For years I wavered out there in a disorganized Christianity, not finding a home in any church I attended. Don't think I ever truly made it to atheist or even agnostic completely...but the portions of the church experience that turned me off one after another, kept me out of believing I needed an organized Christianity ie a building, a congregation, a preacher...

How wrong I was, how much more enriched and comfortable my life has been since I did. In truth though it is the Spongs, those that tilted at windmills, looked for the essence despite the contradiction, that is what kept me willing, barely willing to keep searching.
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Hi wil, Thank you for those comments and describing your experience. My question (written at night with a sinus infection) did sound kind of pointed. Sorry Chris if that put you off; it was not my intention. I was trying to sincerely ask what it is you are looking for. For me the being part of something more than myself, larger than me but not of this world, is a big part of it...I can relate to what wil says above. But for many that is not so important and I guess I was wondering how Chris saw this, if community was part of what he is looking for.

Laurie
 
Perhaps it's arrogant presumption, but I feel, and I believe that I'm being gently guided in my personal spiritual quest. Had I been guided back to the conservative Christian theology of my childhood I would have gone willingly. It would have made things a lot easier. I'm not way out here on the edge because I'm looking for a way out. I'm here because I committed long ago to follow my heart, my mind, and the still, small voice. I accepted the quest not knowing where it would lead, but determined to start, to show inititive, intention, and trust. (it's not nearly as grand a thing as I'm making it sound.)

There are those who will always insist that I'm "leaning unto my own understanding", or quote that other verse about "a path which seems right unto a man, but in the end there is destruction." FS said she thinks of me as the serpent trying to deceive people. That's O.K., I understand. But I have to make sense of things. I have to study things carefully; figure things out. It's the honest intention and initiative that prods the universal muse. Kinda like tickling a lobster out of it's hidey hole in the reef.

There has to be a level at which the physical absolutely jibes with the metaphysical. This is what I'm looking for. So long as we keep the world of knowlege separate from the spiritual realm both will lack potence. Everything has to work one way. The physical laws and the spiritual laws have to relate to a single source. Logos, if you wish. I can't accept doctrine, dogma, theology which relies on an abridgement of reason. Which excuses illogic by blaming it on Satan, or warning me not to trust my own mind.

Chris
 
FWIW Chris, I've always felt that your presence in this forum represents an honest quest for understanding. Even when you needle us!

luna
 
Kindest Regards, China Cat!
China Cat Sunflower said:
Perhaps it's arrogant presumption, but I feel, and I believe that I'm being gently guided in my personal spiritual quest. Had I been guided back to the conservative Christian theology of my childhood I would have gone willingly. It would have made things a lot easier. I'm not way out here on the edge because I'm looking for a way out. I'm here because I committed long ago to follow my heart, my mind, and the still, small voice. I accepted the quest not knowing where it would lead, but determined to start, to show inititive, intention, and trust. (it's not nearly as grand a thing as I'm making it sound.)

There are those who will always insist that I'm "leaning unto my own understanding", or quote that other verse about "a path which seems right unto a man, but in the end there is destruction." FS said she thinks of me as the serpent trying to deceive people. That's O.K., I understand. But I have to make sense of things. I have to study things carefully; figure things out. It's the honest intention and initiative that prods the universal muse. Kinda like tickling a lobster out of it's hidey hole in the reef.

There has to be a level at which the physical absolutely jibes with the metaphysical. This is what I'm looking for. So long as we keep the world of knowlege separate from the spiritual realm both will lack potence. Everything has to work one way. The physical laws and the spiritual laws have to relate to a single source. Logos, if you wish. I can't accept doctrine, dogma, theology which relies on an abridgement of reason. Which excuses illogic by blaming it on Satan, or warning me not to trust my own mind.
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Awesome post! Seems you and I have come to somewhat different conclusions so far, but it is really cool to know that our motivations are very similar!
 
You know that Jesus told us the Gate is narrow.
Does not say anything about it being a wide open road, a narrow Gate.

Sometimes you need to question that little voice and see who it really is talking to you.
 
Dor said:
You know that Jesus told us the Gate is narrow.
Does not say anything about it being a wide open road, a narrow Gate.

Sometimes you need to question that little voice and see who it really is talking to you.
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He did say that Dor. But I would think that any voice that encourages us to look for God through Christ could be trusted. It would be the voices that tell us to give up, to stop seeking, stop asking, stop knocking, that I would be more wary of.

2 c,
luna
 
1Th 5:14 Now we exhort you, brethren, warn them that are unruly, comfort the feebleminded, support the weak, be patient toward all men.

1Th 5:15 See that none render evil for evil unto any man; but ever follow that which is good, both among yourselves, and to all men.

1Th 5:16 Rejoice evermore.

1Th 5:17 Pray without ceasing.

1Th 5:18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.

1Th 5:19 Quench not the Spirit.

1Th 5:20 Despise not prophesyings.

1Th 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.


1Th 5:22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.

1Th 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1Th 5:24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

KJV
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Chris
 
Kindest Regards, Dor!
Dor said:
Yep but how are things that contradict the Bible and reject Christ(ala Rev Spongbob) going to prove to be good?
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In this I also agree, hence my reasons for holding Spong at arms' length, with no desire to entertain his thoughts. That does not take away from the underlying drive behind China Cat's motivations. It is those motivations that I am in agreement with... :D
 
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