juantoo3
....whys guy.... ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb
"I've come to the conclusion, that a man is about as happy as he makes his mind up to be." -Abraham Lincoln
Greatest Proof of a Lack of a Deity?
- Thread starter pseudonymous
- Start date
Pagan-prophet
(Protect Computer)
I have always believed,
God is flawed.
God is flawed.
Pagan-prophet
(Protect Computer)
Quahom1 said:
I have no reason to believe that he is not flawed. Every living thing in the universe has its faults.
juantoo3
....whys guy.... ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb
Then I suppose the better question is: Who made whom?
Anzac said:
The trouble is, you're criticisms are based from an entirely Christian-centric view of the world. Christianity does not hold the trademark on God.
From a non-Christian-centric view, the reasoning of the Christian view can look flawed. Ultimately, a criticism of a Christian-centric view of God cannot be held as a criticism beyond that remit.
Anzac
Resident Anarchist
I know my opinion is Christian-based as I've been brought up with a one-dimensional view of what religion is from my westernized education! However, I know that each and every argument for and against God, religion and the function of the universe is all boiled down, taken apart and thrown to pieces and as a result I try and point out possible errors in individual areas of different religions (as a result I'm reading up more and more on the rest of the world religions because no offence but a GCSE and A level in RE counts for nothing in actual knowledge of religion!).
Until I've looked at it in enough detail I won't imprint myself on anything but Christianity (but my time will come...).
As for the other argument, the world is "flawed" - well what is "perfection"? Is anything or anyone really "perfect" per say? Can anything actually be truly without error - and as a result as (in Christianity and Islam) we are made in his image, is God flawed?
Until I've looked at it in enough detail I won't imprint myself on anything but Christianity (but my time will come...).
As for the other argument, the world is "flawed" - well what is "perfection"? Is anything or anyone really "perfect" per say? Can anything actually be truly without error - and as a result as (in Christianity and Islam) we are made in his image, is God flawed?
Pagan-prophet
(Protect Computer)
That is the question indeed. To me God seems to be a "the chicken or the egg riddle. If there is an effect for every cause then God must have a cause as well.juantoo3 said:
juantoo3
....whys guy.... ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb
So it would seem, logically. Of course, one could turn to something like Aristotle's "Unmoved Mover" and find an almost logical effect of God with no previous cause. So we return to individual experience which cannot be quantified. IMHO, I think God exists. I also think men have painted his face in so many different ways that none of us knows who He really is anymore. Just my opinion.
Pagan-prophet
(Protect Computer)
Enlighten me… what is the “Unmoved Mover”. Furthermore, what is “IMHO”?
“I think God exists. I also think men have painted his face in so many different ways that none of us knows who He really is anymore. Just my opinion.”
I could not agree more.
“I think God exists. I also think men have painted his face in so many different ways that none of us knows who He really is anymore. Just my opinion.”
I could not agree more.
IMHO = "In my humble opinion"
IMO = "In my opinion"
As to the point about God requiring a cause - alas, when you think in those terms, I fear you fail to address the Concept of God (which is not held to have a prior cause, but in itself is it's own first cause - hence, Prime Mover, etc).
IMO = "In my opinion"
As to the point about God requiring a cause - alas, when you think in those terms, I fear you fail to address the Concept of God (which is not held to have a prior cause, but in itself is it's own first cause - hence, Prime Mover, etc).
I said:
In other words, it is "difficult" (tongue in cheek), at best to attempt to place an infinite concept into a finite "Box", as we humans are want to do, with everything. We want it nice and tidy, with no loose ends. But then, that would bore us to death...and God just can't have that. No man, that would not do at all.
juantoo3
....whys guy.... ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb
Kindest Regards, Pagan-prophet,
“I think God exists. I also think men have painted his face in so many different ways that none of us knows who He really is anymore. Just my opinion.”
Thanks. I hope I was of some help, I suppose it could be better researched, I simply haven't taken the time or seen a pressing need to do so.
I have only cursory familiarity, beginning with a conversation with a philosophy major. This convinced to me take "philosophy 101", and my familiarity ends there. It was a position put forward by one of the old Greek philosophers, I want to say Aristotle. Like the concept, "cause and effect", the postulation was "every movement required a mover", or something like that. Ultimately, at the top of the chain, was assumed a Mover that "himself" was unmoved, the prime root cause of everything in the then known universe. Perhaps a philosophy student or scholar here could shed better light, but that is my understanding.Pagan-prophet said:
I was taught it means "in my honest opinion."
“I think God exists. I also think men have painted his face in so many different ways that none of us knows who He really is anymore. Just my opinion.”
Thanks. I hope I was of some help, I suppose it could be better researched, I simply haven't taken the time or seen a pressing need to do so.
JJM
Well-Known Member
Pagan-prophet said:
How can someone with supreme rule. who's opinion is always right be flawed. If he decides what is right and wrong then wouldn't he always be right if his opinion is always right. It's kind of like someone asking how can God always be just he decides what just is so of course he can always be just. and He decides what it is to not be flawed so of course he isn't flawed. After all isn't evil the opposite of God's opinion. Just my thoughts.
_____________________________________________________________
I am the wisest man alive, for I know one thing, and that is that I know nothing.
Socrates
Pagan-prophet
(Protect Computer)
Not that I disagree with you but just for the sake of debate,
JJM said,
“How can someone with supreme rule. who's opinion is always right be flawed. If he decides what is right and wrong then wouldn't he always be right if his opinion is always right. It's kind of like someone asking how can God always be just he decides what just is so of course he can always be just. and He decides what it is to not be flawed so of course he isn't flawed. After all isn't evil the opposite of God's opinion. Just my thoughts."
Not unless there is more than one God in which case the God’s can disagree on what is right, wrong, just, flawed and evil. Furthermore, if your flawed that means that you do not necessarily have supreme rule.
I, Brian said,
“As to the point about God requiring a cause - alas, when you think in those terms, I fear you fail to address the Concept of God (which is not held to have a prior cause, but in itself is it's own first cause - hence, Prime Mover, etc).”
I see… how does one go about moving without being moved? Its hard to explain. So if it is unexplainable then why take it into account? One could state that there never was a beginning of the universe. Thus there was always a mover that had a mover to it.
juantoo3 said,
“I have only cursory familiarity, beginning with a conversation with a philosophy major. This convinced to me take "philosophy 101", and my familiarity ends there. It was a position put forward by one of the old Greek philosophers, I want to say Aristotle. Like the concept, "cause and effect", the postulation was "every movement required a mover", or something like that. Ultimately, at the top of the chain, was assumed a Mover that "himself" was unmoved, the prime root cause of everything in the then known universe. Perhaps a philosophy student or scholar here could shed better light, but that is my understanding.”
If I where to say that God where outside of time, then I would be able to assume that he would not need a mover because the term mover, is relative to time. But what if the universe itself has a timeline infinite in each dirrection. It would not need a mover then.
Quahom1 said,
“In other words, it is "difficult" (tongue in cheek), at best to attempt to place an infinite concept into a finite "Box", as we humans are want to do, with everything. We want it nice and tidy, with no loose ends. But then, that would bore us to death...and God just can't have that. No man, that would not do at all.”
Unless the box itself is infinite…
God is Omnipresent (a characteristic of being flawless) then is he himself not the box? If God is infinite then so must the box. If the box is infinite then one can question if that is also relative to time (time can be infinite in each direction). Thus if the box has a beginning then the universe is not infinite and if the universe is not infinite then God cannot be omnipresent, thus god is not flawless.
…My brain hurts… why am I doing this at 3:44 in the morning? Nighty night…
JJM said,
“How can someone with supreme rule. who's opinion is always right be flawed. If he decides what is right and wrong then wouldn't he always be right if his opinion is always right. It's kind of like someone asking how can God always be just he decides what just is so of course he can always be just. and He decides what it is to not be flawed so of course he isn't flawed. After all isn't evil the opposite of God's opinion. Just my thoughts."
Not unless there is more than one God in which case the God’s can disagree on what is right, wrong, just, flawed and evil. Furthermore, if your flawed that means that you do not necessarily have supreme rule.
I, Brian said,
“As to the point about God requiring a cause - alas, when you think in those terms, I fear you fail to address the Concept of God (which is not held to have a prior cause, but in itself is it's own first cause - hence, Prime Mover, etc).”
I see… how does one go about moving without being moved? Its hard to explain. So if it is unexplainable then why take it into account? One could state that there never was a beginning of the universe. Thus there was always a mover that had a mover to it.
juantoo3 said,
“I have only cursory familiarity, beginning with a conversation with a philosophy major. This convinced to me take "philosophy 101", and my familiarity ends there. It was a position put forward by one of the old Greek philosophers, I want to say Aristotle. Like the concept, "cause and effect", the postulation was "every movement required a mover", or something like that. Ultimately, at the top of the chain, was assumed a Mover that "himself" was unmoved, the prime root cause of everything in the then known universe. Perhaps a philosophy student or scholar here could shed better light, but that is my understanding.”
If I where to say that God where outside of time, then I would be able to assume that he would not need a mover because the term mover, is relative to time. But what if the universe itself has a timeline infinite in each dirrection. It would not need a mover then.
Quahom1 said,
“In other words, it is "difficult" (tongue in cheek), at best to attempt to place an infinite concept into a finite "Box", as we humans are want to do, with everything. We want it nice and tidy, with no loose ends. But then, that would bore us to death...and God just can't have that. No man, that would not do at all.”
Unless the box itself is infinite…
God is Omnipresent (a characteristic of being flawless) then is he himself not the box? If God is infinite then so must the box. If the box is infinite then one can question if that is also relative to time (time can be infinite in each direction). Thus if the box has a beginning then the universe is not infinite and if the universe is not infinite then God cannot be omnipresent, thus god is not flawless.
…My brain hurts… why am I doing this at 3:44 in the morning? Nighty night…
Pagan-prophet
(Protect Computer)
And as for God being Omniscient and Omnipotent,
God is omniscient.
Therefore,
God knows what are future is going to be.
Therefore,
We have a set future. (no other options other than those set up by god.)
Therefore,
We have no free will/ God has predestined everyone’s future
You must believe in Predestination because you believe in an Omniscient God and God knows what the future is going to be therefore he predetermines all events before he makes them. If God cannot predetermine the future then he cannot be Omniscient or Omnipotent making him flawed. No matter how you boil down to it the facts are, because god can do anything he must be able to know the future and then make the world the way he knows it will turn out to be. Thus everything is predetermined. If this is true and God can predetermine the future (because he is flawless) God would know about all the evils in the would before he made them.
If everything is predetermined by God (a characteristic of being flawless) then God cannot be infinitely benevolent because he either directly or indirectly triggered a chain of events leading to evil. If evil is the opposite of God’s opinion then he himself caused what he did not want. “After all isn't evil the opposite of God's opinion. Just my thoughts.”-JJM. Yes. So why did god make it? He wanted to make choice/ free will? But all of are lives are predetermined. Therefore, No choice/ free will.
Now if you where to argue that we can never understand God for God is beyond us then you are saying God does not want us to know of him. The “Omniscient, Omnipresent and Omnipotent” God can simply make that one piece of proof that will satisfy everyone to come into everyone. But instead he makes us learn lessons through a system called “life”. This processes seems to be one made by a God with limits.
If you say, God is not Omniscient, Omnipresent or Omnipotent then God has a limit to what he can do, thus he is not flawless. Also if you use the term, “God cannot” then you are also stating that God has a limit.
God is omniscient.
Therefore,
God knows what are future is going to be.
Therefore,
We have a set future. (no other options other than those set up by god.)
Therefore,
We have no free will/ God has predestined everyone’s future
You must believe in Predestination because you believe in an Omniscient God and God knows what the future is going to be therefore he predetermines all events before he makes them. If God cannot predetermine the future then he cannot be Omniscient or Omnipotent making him flawed. No matter how you boil down to it the facts are, because god can do anything he must be able to know the future and then make the world the way he knows it will turn out to be. Thus everything is predetermined. If this is true and God can predetermine the future (because he is flawless) God would know about all the evils in the would before he made them.
If everything is predetermined by God (a characteristic of being flawless) then God cannot be infinitely benevolent because he either directly or indirectly triggered a chain of events leading to evil. If evil is the opposite of God’s opinion then he himself caused what he did not want. “After all isn't evil the opposite of God's opinion. Just my thoughts.”-JJM. Yes. So why did god make it? He wanted to make choice/ free will? But all of are lives are predetermined. Therefore, No choice/ free will.
Now if you where to argue that we can never understand God for God is beyond us then you are saying God does not want us to know of him. The “Omniscient, Omnipresent and Omnipotent” God can simply make that one piece of proof that will satisfy everyone to come into everyone. But instead he makes us learn lessons through a system called “life”. This processes seems to be one made by a God with limits.
If you say, God is not Omniscient, Omnipresent or Omnipotent then God has a limit to what he can do, thus he is not flawless. Also if you use the term, “God cannot” then you are also stating that God has a limit.
Susma Rio Sep
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God is infinitely bored.
Word to the wise:
Since we can't otherwise than think of God as our brain or mind can make of Him, which of course is certainly off the mark as regards the quality and quantity of God.
So all our knowledge of God, if He does exist and granting for the sake of argument that He does, is off the mark, and absolutely infinitely off the mark.
Ergo we don't really know God.
What then is all this discussion about God? Futile exercise to keep our brain cells alive and active?
Anyway, if we would talk about God as we can't otherwise than as humans, then God is the most infinitely bored being for knowing everything and not in need of trying anything at all.
But remember medieval theologians tell us that God is satsified with Himself in His self-contemplation. Yet, another very human conception of God, just like we ourselves are essentially narcissistic.
Withal, I still believe in God and pray to Him. But I don't subscribe to anyone human telling me about Him and specially claiming to be His representative whatever. Very human of me -- of course, can't be otherwise.
Susma Rio Sep
Word to the wise:
Since we can't otherwise than think of God as our brain or mind can make of Him, which of course is certainly off the mark as regards the quality and quantity of God.
So all our knowledge of God, if He does exist and granting for the sake of argument that He does, is off the mark, and absolutely infinitely off the mark.
Ergo we don't really know God.
What then is all this discussion about God? Futile exercise to keep our brain cells alive and active?
Anyway, if we would talk about God as we can't otherwise than as humans, then God is the most infinitely bored being for knowing everything and not in need of trying anything at all.
But remember medieval theologians tell us that God is satsified with Himself in His self-contemplation. Yet, another very human conception of God, just like we ourselves are essentially narcissistic.
Withal, I still believe in God and pray to Him. But I don't subscribe to anyone human telling me about Him and specially claiming to be His representative whatever. Very human of me -- of course, can't be otherwise.
Susma Rio Sep
juantoo3
....whys guy.... ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb
Kindest Regards, Pagan-prophet,
When all is said and done, we are arguing the same arguments voiced for centuries. None of us has found any completely convincing argument either way, which is the quandary inherent in this subject. In the end, you choose which side of the fence you prefer to stand on, unless you like straddling fences (which creates an entirely different kind of pain!). And likely you will focus on the arguments that you believe best support your position, and reinforce yourself with those memes/mindgames/thought patterns, further justifying your position to yourself. We all do it.
Stated another way, if one uses logic solely and only to form their faith, they come away with one of a few belief systems (science, philosophy). But there are matters in this existence that reason seems to not address fully to our satisfaction. "Beyond reason" does not emphatically mean "beyond existence." There are matters that can be understood intuitively, that can tend to seem contrary to logic. In the end, one does the best one can with what one understands, and tries desperately to make sense of it all. Gotta go!
If God were "outside of time", then He would still be outside of an infinite universe, and still the Prime Mover. This is only a futile exercise in semantics, which is likely the cause of your headache.
When all is said and done, we are arguing the same arguments voiced for centuries. None of us has found any completely convincing argument either way, which is the quandary inherent in this subject. In the end, you choose which side of the fence you prefer to stand on, unless you like straddling fences (which creates an entirely different kind of pain!
). And likely you will focus on the arguments that you believe best support your position, and reinforce yourself with those memes/mindgames/thought patterns, further justifying your position to yourself. We all do it.Stated another way, if one uses logic solely and only to form their faith, they come away with one of a few belief systems (science, philosophy). But there are matters in this existence that reason seems to not address fully to our satisfaction. "Beyond reason" does not emphatically mean "beyond existence." There are matters that can be understood intuitively, that can tend to seem contrary to logic. In the end, one does the best one can with what one understands, and tries desperately to make sense of it all. Gotta go!
Susma Rio Sep
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Faith is a gift.
The Catholic Churches teaches that faith is a gift from God. I am not advocating the Catholic Faith, though. I just happened to have been a Catholic from childhood and have studied in Catholic schools.
Now, you can accept the gift or not. Protestants of the Lutheran school tell us believe and you shall be saved. Didn't Jesus say similarly and originally. Of course they are just repeating the injunction of Jesus.
"Accept Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior, and oila! Saved." I do that also.
I thus accept the faith as a gift, but I am still a critical and demanding connoisseur of faith -- looking at a gift horse in the mouth?
Woe is me? God help me, a postgraduate Catholic.
(Do you have to parade that label everywhere, Susma? Well, it is my petty luxury here. I don't have any Avatar, though.)
Susma Rio Sep
The Catholic Churches teaches that faith is a gift from God. I am not advocating the Catholic Faith, though. I just happened to have been a Catholic from childhood and have studied in Catholic schools.
Now, you can accept the gift or not. Protestants of the Lutheran school tell us believe and you shall be saved. Didn't Jesus say similarly and originally. Of course they are just repeating the injunction of Jesus.
"Accept Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior, and oila! Saved." I do that also.
I thus accept the faith as a gift, but I am still a critical and demanding connoisseur of faith -- looking at a gift horse in the mouth?
Woe is me? God help me, a postgraduate Catholic.
(Do you have to parade that label everywhere, Susma? Well, it is my petty luxury here. I don't have any Avatar, though.)
Susma Rio Sep
Pagan-prophet
(Protect Computer)
Not that I disagree with any of you but just for the sake of debate,
Susma Rio Sep said,
“Word to the wise:
Since we can't otherwise than think of God as our brain or mind can make of Him, which of course is certainly off the mark as regards the quality and quantity of God.
So all our knowledge of God, if He does exist and granting for the sake of argument that He does, is off the mark, and absolutely infinitely off the mark.
Ergo we don't really know God.”
Your first sentence is a bit confusing… but I believe you mean to state that because God is infinite, we, being people with a finite brain, cannot comprehend the complexity of God. That, to me, is the only way one can escape the argument. I use the word escape because it is similar to saying:
A(God is infinite)=(we cannot understand him). Though the concept of “A” is baced appon faith.
Lets assume that God is not infinite. This would solve many questions right off the bat. Bad things happen to good people because God made bad things. There are only 3 primary colors because God could not think of anymore. Anything that you can think of that is imperfect in the world can be blamed on the flawed God. (this is not a belief that I share completely.)
“What then is all this discussion about God? Futile exercise to keep our brain cells alive and active?”
I am doing this because I’m looking for meaning… And its fun…
“Anyway, if we would talk about God as we can't otherwise than as humans, then God is the most infinitely bored being for knowing everything and not in need of trying anything at all.”
So what is God’s meaning of life? If god Knows Everything then why bother to do anything at all. God is not discovering anything. God Can do anything but entertain himself… (Because God cant entertain himself then he must not be Omnipotent because an Omnipotent God would be able to.)
Now I’m stuck in this “could god make a rock so heavy he could not lift” situation in which God is Omnipotent thus He can do anything. God is Omniscient therefore he knows everything. The Omniscient God who knows everything could not possibly entertain himself for he would know the outcome of the event in every way. (It is like reading a book for an infinite amount of times.) But if he where Omnipotent he would be able to entertain himself forever.
“But remember medieval theologians tell us that God is satsified with Himself in His self-contemplation. Yet, another very human conception of God, just like we ourselves are essentially narcissistic.”
But we do not know that God is satsified for sure… Just like I don’t know what God is like because he is “infinite” and I am finite.
“Withal, I still believe in God and pray to Him. But I don't subscribe to anyone human telling me about Him and specially claiming to be His representative whatever. Very human of me -- of course, can't be otherwise.”
I could not agree more.
----------------------
juantoo3 said,
“If God were "outside of time", then He would still be outside of an infinite universe, and still the Prime Mover.”
Ahhh… But if this is true and God is outside of an infinite universe then god would not be Omnipresent therefore being flawed. However, juest because God is outside of time does not mean that he has to be outside of space as well…
“This is only a futile exercise in semantics, which is likely the cause of your headache. ”
No my headache was a cause of dehydration and being up at 3:30 AM. But thanks anyway. I don’t see it as a futile exercise because I feel that almost anything is arguable.
“Stated another way, if one uses logic solely and only to form their faith, they come away with one of a few belief systems (science, philosophy)”
But the funny part is, is that I have not told you what my faith is. How can I argue in favor of my faith if my faith is not involved. I am merely introducing a concept that nobody seems to agree with (at first it was for the sake of debate).
“But there are matters in this existence that reason seems to not address fully to our satisfaction. "Beyond reason" does not emphatically mean "beyond existence." There are matters that can be understood intuitively, that can tend to seem contrary to logic. In the end, one does the best one can with what one understands, and tries desperately to make sense of it all. Gotta go!”
This could be true… However, this is just one example for the opposing side: According to the Christen religion, God wants you all to believe in him and go to heaven. If someone does the best one can with what one understands and ends up not believing in the Christen God (assuming for sake of argument that it is the one true religion) then is it really that persons fault for going to hell? The person did the best they could to what God has applied to them… This means that reason is preventing many people to not believe in him. If God limits a persons abilities to believe in him by giving them too much or not enough reason then is it not God’s fault for making that person to go to hell? If what you say is true then God (according to the Christen religion) predestines people to damnation. This makes him flawed.
Susma Rio Sep said,
“Word to the wise:
Since we can't otherwise than think of God as our brain or mind can make of Him, which of course is certainly off the mark as regards the quality and quantity of God.
So all our knowledge of God, if He does exist and granting for the sake of argument that He does, is off the mark, and absolutely infinitely off the mark.
Ergo we don't really know God.”
Your first sentence is a bit confusing… but I believe you mean to state that because God is infinite, we, being people with a finite brain, cannot comprehend the complexity of God. That, to me, is the only way one can escape the argument. I use the word escape because it is similar to saying:
A(God is infinite)=(we cannot understand him). Though the concept of “A” is baced appon faith.
Lets assume that God is not infinite. This would solve many questions right off the bat. Bad things happen to good people because God made bad things. There are only 3 primary colors because God could not think of anymore. Anything that you can think of that is imperfect in the world can be blamed on the flawed God. (this is not a belief that I share completely.)
“What then is all this discussion about God? Futile exercise to keep our brain cells alive and active?”
I am doing this because I’m looking for meaning… And its fun…
“Anyway, if we would talk about God as we can't otherwise than as humans, then God is the most infinitely bored being for knowing everything and not in need of trying anything at all.”
So what is God’s meaning of life? If god Knows Everything then why bother to do anything at all. God is not discovering anything. God Can do anything but entertain himself… (Because God cant entertain himself then he must not be Omnipotent because an Omnipotent God would be able to.)
Now I’m stuck in this “could god make a rock so heavy he could not lift” situation in which God is Omnipotent thus He can do anything. God is Omniscient therefore he knows everything. The Omniscient God who knows everything could not possibly entertain himself for he would know the outcome of the event in every way. (It is like reading a book for an infinite amount of times.) But if he where Omnipotent he would be able to entertain himself forever.
“But remember medieval theologians tell us that God is satsified with Himself in His self-contemplation. Yet, another very human conception of God, just like we ourselves are essentially narcissistic.”
But we do not know that God is satsified for sure… Just like I don’t know what God is like because he is “infinite” and I am finite.
“Withal, I still believe in God and pray to Him. But I don't subscribe to anyone human telling me about Him and specially claiming to be His representative whatever. Very human of me -- of course, can't be otherwise.”
I could not agree more.
----------------------
juantoo3 said,
“If God were "outside of time", then He would still be outside of an infinite universe, and still the Prime Mover.”
Ahhh… But if this is true and God is outside of an infinite universe then god would not be Omnipresent therefore being flawed. However, juest because God is outside of time does not mean that he has to be outside of space as well…
“This is only a futile exercise in semantics, which is likely the cause of your headache. ”
No my headache was a cause of dehydration and being up at 3:30 AM. But thanks anyway. I don’t see it as a futile exercise because I feel that almost anything is arguable.
“Stated another way, if one uses logic solely and only to form their faith, they come away with one of a few belief systems (science, philosophy)”
But the funny part is, is that I have not told you what my faith is. How can I argue in favor of my faith if my faith is not involved. I am merely introducing a concept that nobody seems to agree with (at first it was for the sake of debate).
“But there are matters in this existence that reason seems to not address fully to our satisfaction. "Beyond reason" does not emphatically mean "beyond existence." There are matters that can be understood intuitively, that can tend to seem contrary to logic. In the end, one does the best one can with what one understands, and tries desperately to make sense of it all. Gotta go!”
This could be true… However, this is just one example for the opposing side: According to the Christen religion, God wants you all to believe in him and go to heaven. If someone does the best one can with what one understands and ends up not believing in the Christen God (assuming for sake of argument that it is the one true religion) then is it really that persons fault for going to hell? The person did the best they could to what God has applied to them… This means that reason is preventing many people to not believe in him. If God limits a persons abilities to believe in him by giving them too much or not enough reason then is it not God’s fault for making that person to go to hell? If what you say is true then God (according to the Christen religion) predestines people to damnation. This makes him flawed.