Free Choice or Chioce by Evolution of Consciousness?

Re: Free Choice or Choice by Evolution of Consciousness?

Hmmm... And how does this make you feel?
:D

Hi,

Counselling now, eh?!!

I would hope that I engage in both "types" of mind activity, as appropriate...

s.
 
To prove the free-will: Something has to come out of a person that did NOT go in. If every particle could be tracked then it would be seen that something is not obeying the 'cause and effect'... but that can not be seen. To measure anything requires using energy, which either destroys or alters. Besides there are far too many particles to track. But it is a requirement of free will that information comes out of a person that did not go in.

These are just examples of how people tend to perceive things. There are those who see or rather must see the whole or big picture and then break it down into its parts. These usually see that the Whole is greater than the sum of its parts.
Is this not where the evolution of consciousness part comes in? It's free-will that is greater than the sum of the parts. Free-choice is often concerned with just the parts.

{Oh, btw, I'm an INTJ who recognizes that there are some things that are just beyond our current perception.} :D
 
Incidentally the MBTI shows I'm an INFP

{Oh, btw, I'm an INTJ }

Hi,

Maybe us intuitive introverts could form our own club. It would make great material for a Woody Allen film. But then Paladin's too absorbed to be sociable, seattlegal's too stubborn to agree where to meet and I don't like small talk or parties. Oh and we're not even on the same continent. Stupid idea all round really.

s. (INTP and proud).
 
This MBTI: 4 bits? 4 bits that can't even encode a single letter of the alphabet is suppose to say something about a person's personality? I looked it up and I am an EISNTFJP... unable to answer questions that do not have an answer... primarily since they are situation dependent and subject to what a person chooses. So here is an easy expansion to 12 bits:

Do you sometimes prefer to be more Extroverted than Introverted?
Do you sometimes prefer to be more Introverted than Extroverted?
Do you sometimes prefer to Sense rather than rely on Intuition?
Do you sometimes prefer to use Intuition rather than Sensory?
Do you sometimes prefer to Think rather than Feel?
Do you sometimes prefer to Feel rather than Think?
Do you sometimes prefer to Judge rather than Perceive?
Do you sometimes prefer to Perceive rather than Judge?

So that is: Y, N, and don't know for 8 questions... which can be encoded in 12 bits. At least thats enough to encode a single letter of the alphabet.
 
Hi,

Maybe us intuitive introverts could form our own club. It would make great material for a Woody Allen film. But then Paladin's too absorbed to be sociable, seattlegal's too stubborn to agree where to meet and I don't like small talk or parties. Oh and we're not even on the same continent. Stupid idea all round really.

s. (INTP and proud).


Hey! um... well, yeah okay:D
 
Hey! um... well, yeah okay:D

Hi Paladin,

Hee hee! Only reading my notes on your type! And you can't argue with Jung (mainly of course because he's dead).

s. (playing against type and engaging in small talk....)
 
This MBTI: 4 bits? 4 bits that can't even encode a single letter of the alphabet is suppose to say something about a person's personality? I looked it up and I am an EISNTFJP... unable to answer questions that do not have an answer... primarily since they are situation dependent and subject to what a person chooses. So here is an easy expansion to 12 bits:

Do you sometimes prefer to be more Extroverted than Introverted?
Do you sometimes prefer to be more Introverted than Extroverted?
Do you sometimes prefer to Sense rather than rely on Intuition?
Do you sometimes prefer to use Intuition rather than Sensory?
Do you sometimes prefer to Think rather than Feel?
Do you sometimes prefer to Feel rather than Think?
Do you sometimes prefer to Judge rather than Perceive?
Do you sometimes prefer to Perceive rather than Judge?

So that is: Y, N, and don't know for 8 questions... which can be encoded in 12 bits. At least thats enough to encode a single letter of the alphabet.

Hmm, this quote comes to mind:
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is.

Chuck Reid
Gotta keep a sense of humor when dealing with some of the wacky theories we humans come up with. :D
 
Nice add. I do see a lot of insight in that quote from Chuck Reid, and it is in this thread in multiple ways from multiple contributors.

Between the Ortho-Christian and the Liberal-Christian camps I see it playing out. Or maybe it is between some Muslim and Christian camps... same thing really. I would state it this way: In the person that thinks their thinking is rightful, thinking rightfully and doing good works is the same thing. In the person that has done good works, they are NOT the same... albeit often to the exclusion of organized thinking. I submit that it is safest to simply ask: I don't know which is more important, the bread or the wine? The flesh or the blood? Einstein or Edison? I say they are different, and both important. I would also venture to say the order is important. Best to be Einstein first and then Edison second... over and over... learn something about light before playing with light. Take the bread before the wine, over and over. Think before practice, over and over.

When I have practiced before thinking I have tended to regret the outcome. When I have thought with no plans to practice I have tended to regret wasting the time. When I have thought before practicing I have realized the two are different but that the organized framework was there in my brain to make easy corrections. I see them as different, prefer to do both, and now in a specific order. It does not mean I have to, and it does not mean I always do, but I prefer to put theory into practice, make the least mistakes, and yet still learn from the practice. Cake and eat it too? No... eat the cake and have the recipe down to make more utilizing the least amount of resources. The brain lives off the blood and the blood lives off the brain. Yet I say the ideas do not come from the blood and the energy does not come from the brain.
 
For what its worth, a little on my view of the relationship between Truth and Faith:

People who want to know the paths are interested in theory.
People who want to take a path are interested in practice.

People who share information are looking for Truth.
People who share blood are looking for Faith.

People who accept Truth from another may be subject to their will.
People who accept Faith from another are subject to their own.

People who give Truth think they know the way.
People who give Faith know that someone will find it.

If Truth is measured in bits, it is a measure of information from the giver.
If Faith is measured in bits, it is a measure of information from the receiver.

If Truth is measured in joules, it is a measure of the energy it took to get it.
If Faith is measured in joules, it is a measure of energy given.

If Truth is seen coming from the theory, then Faith is found in the lab.
If Truth is seen coming from the lab, then Faith is accepting what is on the chalkboard.

If Truth is seen coming from the measurements of others, then Faith is found in accepting God.
If Truth is seen coming from God, then Faith is seen in doing per the measurements of others.

In summary I am saying that Faith is an action devoid of belief, religion, or ounce of knowledge in it except that which is heard from the will of another. To me, it means doing per the will of another, which means accepting information from them and applying some energy to it. Faith and information are totally different. Information can be given by Faith, but it is by the selectivity of the interaction.

My view, guided or misguided... either way I'm going to avoid people who only work with 4 bits.
 
Okay I will skip past all this philosophical exchange and just post an item which I wrote a few years ago. You will see that it is quite different in essence to what has been posted previously.


The Christians have it all worked out: God created a perfect world, and perfect "In the image of God" humans, but he gave us free will and we stuffed it all up. Well that conveniently answers everything, doesn't it. We can't blame God for pain, tragedy, war, environmental destruction and so on. He gave us a perfect world, and we blew it.

Well I have given the matter much thought and have concluded that most of our "free will" actions are nothing more than a matter of taking the path of least resistance given all the circumstances involved. When we are hungry, we eat; when we are thirsty, we drink; when we are tired, we rest; when our bladder is full, we relieve ourselves. Is there actually any free will involved in these basic examples of common human day-to-day experience? We don't think, we don't reason, we don't make a calculated decision; we just respond naturally to our body's demands.

We can apply this analogy to far more complex situations: a married couple find that they can no longer stand each other's company. So do they just walk away and start life anew? No, because financial considerations and responsibilities to offspring make up a much more complex equation. Eventually the couple will choose the course of action that causes the least stress to all involved, or in other words, the path of least resistance.

Anyone who takes the time to analyse the many "free will" decisions which they may make in a single day will soon see that, given all the circumstances involved, they are merely taking the path of least resistance.

However from time to time, and possibly even several times a day, we are faced with a choice of actions that are all of equal strength: there is no path of least resistance; a decision has to be made but it is impossible to choose between several equally compelling options.

And this, I believe, is where true free will comes into play: without knowing why, we randomly choose one of the competing options. I challenge anyone to present to me a scenario in which a conscious and deliberate choice can be made between multiple courses of action which are equally compelling. Is it a free will decision not to murder someone who has caused us intolerable stress? Probably not, because we weigh the alternatives of eliminating the source of our pain, with the probably consequence of spending many years in jail, as well as considering our conscience and deeply embedded social mores.

In every minute action we take each day our "choice" is predominantly determined by an amalgamation of our genes, upbringing, life experience, belief system, laws and so forth. I don't begin to understand the process that causes us to make a random choice when faced with no obvious preferred choice. But it is ONLY THIS PHENOMENON WHICH I WILL DIGNIFY WITH THE TITLE OF FREE WILL.

And now I would like to skip back to Genesis and try and make some sense out of the "free will" decision which is allegedly responsible for all the mayhem that has occurred from the inception of the human race.

Christians will no doubt be shocked and mortified by my declaration that the first great "leap of faith" made in the history of Christianity was the decision by Eve, and subsequently Adam, to risk death in order to acquire wisdom. " ... you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."

Well we know that was a lie, don't we, or you wouldn't be reading this now. And if God was referring to a spiritual death as distinct from a physical death, then he didn't bother to clarify the issue. So when the serpent said: "You will not surely die ... when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil," Eve and Adam were faced with a decision which quite possibly meets my criteria for a free-will choice, as they had no foreknowledge on which to judge whether God or the serpent was telling the truth.

It is also an excellent example of that most admirable of human qualities: the willingness to risk death in the quest for knowledge.

But I reject the simplistic interpretation of this incident by the Christian Church. Obviously they would not have wilfully rebelled against God if they believed that by "death" he meant annihilation.
 
Re: Free Choice or Choice by Evolution of Consciousness?

Well I have given the matter much thought and have concluded that most of our "free will" actions are nothing more than a matter of taking the path of least resistance given all the circumstances involved. When we are hungry, we eat; when we are thirsty, we drink; when we are tired, we rest; when our bladder is full, we relieve ourselves. Is there actually any free will involved in these basic examples of common human day-to-day experience? We don't think, we don't reason, we don't make a calculated decision; we just respond naturally to our body's demands.

We can apply this analogy to far more complex situations: a married couple find that they can no longer stand each other's company. So do they just walk away and start life anew? No, because financial considerations and responsibilities to offspring make up a much more complex equation. Eventually the couple will choose the course of action that causes the least stress to all involved, or in other words, the path of least resistance.

Anyone who takes the time to analyse the many "free will" decisions which they may make in a single day will soon see that, given all the circumstances involved, they are merely taking the path of least resistance.


Greeting intrepidlover and welcome.
Thanks for a most interesting post. Though agreement is found in many areas of your post, I will take the liberty to address these few paragraph with a different perspective.

It would be good if people for the most part took the path of least resistance but it seems to me that on the contrary we get in trouble because of the opposite. All of these things you mentioned in the first paragraph are usually done at an unconscious level because they are autonomous and relate to physical needs. On the other hand other choices that are presented to us are often made on the basis of ego mind. Though many times a person may do those choices unconsciously, ones ego gets in the way and one then most often chooses the path of most resistance. It seems to me that this is mainly what creates conflict and problems in our life. Someone says something to us and our ego chooses anger as a response. From this state our choices take the path of most resistance until we find ourselves deep in conflict and trouble.

Most all conflicts and wars are created by resistance and not choosing the path of least resistance. In your example of marriage in your next paragraph it is again choosing resistance, not the path of least resistance that is the problem. It is the path of least resistance to choose not to fight and argue in the first place. The path of least resistance is in most cases to bend and cooperate rather than to seek divorce. They each can't stand each other because instead of not resisting each other they have choosen to operate from the path of most resistance.

Perhaps my perspective of least resistance is different from yours and so I may have misunderstood your meaning here. Perhaps you can clarify the matter for my benefit. Just one view of your writing to consider.

Love in Christ,
JM
 
Regarding free-will and the path of least resistance:
Matt 7:13-14 said:
13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.
 
Re: Free Choice or Choice by Evolution of Consciousness?

Greeting intrepidlover and welcome.
Thanks for a most interesting post. Though agreement is found in many areas of your post, I will take the liberty to address these few paragraph with a different perspective.

It would be good if people for the most part took the path of least resistance but it seems to me that on the contrary we get in trouble because of the opposite. All of these things you mentioned in the first paragraph are usually done at an unconscious level because they are autonomous and relate to physical needs. On the other hand other choices that are presented to us are often made on the basis of ego mind. Though many times a person may do those choices unconsciously, ones ego gets in the way and one then most often chooses the path of most resistance. It seems to me that this is mainly what creates conflict and problems in our life. Someone says something to us and our ego chooses anger as a response. From this state our choices take the path of most resistance until we find ourselves deep in conflict and trouble.

Most all conflicts and wars are created by resistance and not choosing the path of least resistance. In your example of marriage in your next paragraph it is again choosing resistance, not the path of least resistance that is the problem. It is the path of least resistance to choose not to fight and argue in the first place. The path of least resistance is in most cases to bend and cooperate rather than to seek divorce. They each can't stand each other because instead of not resisting each other they have choosen to operate from the path of most resistance.

Perhaps my perspective of least resistance is different from yours and so I may have misunderstood your meaning here. Perhaps you can clarify the matter for my benefit. Just one view of your writing to consider.

Love in Christ,
JM

Thank you for your comments. You make a good point in the ego sometimes choosing the path of most resistance.

Perhaps I was addressing this question too subjectively. You see at the beginning of my earnest search for truth 40 years ago, I made a deliberate effort to develop my intuition. Initially my ego would disagree with my intuition. It took many, many years for me to distinguish clearly between what my intuition was telling me and what my ego was telling me.

Apart from a rough daily structure for my life, almost every small decision is made by my intuition.

So I for one follow the path of least resistance. However I am regularly confronted with situations which have more than one equal and compelling choice. Thus I am continually aware of the mystery of free will as I have defined it and have to make a random decision.

Thank you to those people who have welcomed me to these forums.
 
Hi,



There was a young man who said "Damn,
It is borne upon me that I am
A creature that moves
In predestinate grooves -
Not even a bus, but a tram."​



s.
 
Cheers intrepidlover,
Is that the car that you love? I don't know what ego and intuition mean to you but I would say that you, a soul, a free-will, chose between them.

All things physical flow the path of least resistance... as far as I can see. Everything taught in biology, chemistry, physics, medicine, astronomy, engineering... the physical matter and energy all flows the path of least resistance. Any type of potential energy whether electrical, magnetic, gravitational, radiant, pneumatic, hydraulic, mechanical, thermal, etc... it all flows the path of least resistance. So whatever a person does, I have every confidence that it is the path of least resistance.

So how does a soul make a choice then? It requires two things: Knowing a potential least resistant path for energy to take and the ability to alter the path. For example, turning on a light requires knowing the available electrical path and controlling the switch that selects it. Flipping the switch requires knowing the muscles that could control it. Controlling the muscle requires knowing the neuron path and the neurons that can control it. The point is something very small can control something very big and at every scale something is flowing the path of least resistance.

How does a soul measure and select a path for energy to flow? I don't fully know, but it is in spirit meaning that there is no way to directly see a person except by the paths that they choose, their thoughts and actions. How can I not know? It is possible to drive a car and not know how an engine works. Or flip the light switch and not know where the electricity came from or where the wires are actually routed in the house.

Having to flow a path of least resistance does place requirements for knowing where free energy is and being able to control a path for it. I would say in Christianity that is what Jesus (pbuh) refers to as being baptized with the Holy Air and with Fire... I find that the Fire is not so much fire itself but loosening some free energy somewhere. Lighting a fire is setting energy on a path. Once a fire is started the path is somewhat uncontrolled. Kind of like rolling something large down a long hill and being uncertain of what it will hit and stop. I find that there is nothing truly random in it... just ignorance. That lack of information is what makes the path of a fire or the path of something rolling down a hill seemingly random. A question is, once something is rolling down a hill uncontrolled then how does a person stop it? I also find that the miracles in the bible are examples of directed energy flowing the path of least resistance.

If a person's definition of least resistance means to NOT choose a path and to simply be directed by the environment, the genes, the emotions, or to think that God (swt) is directing every path... then I think there is something very worthwhile for someone to think more about.
 
Hi I understand that we don't know how a decision actually happens but it seems as you say happens automatically i saw a program on discovery science which had subjects wired to monitors while they were given MRIs and Cat Scans. They were asked yes and no questions as well as they had to use their hand in pushing buttons. what they found out is that the doctors asking the questions to the subjects could see what part of the brain lit up to make a decision as well as they could see what the decision was going to be before the subjects consciously god the decisions. I don't know what happens but it seems after we hear a question somethings scans our beliefs and experiences which pertain to that question then simply picks an answer.

Not only like you say we have a limited supply of possible answers it also seems it all happens automatically just as it would with robots, except we have emotions which lead us to believe we actually do have free choice.

It really all doesn't matter unless you believe the bible which tells us we do have free will or free choice.
 
i'm a bit late to the discussion, my apologies.

i'd ask the OP how it is that one can choose to believe?

that's not how it works for me; i'm compelled to a view based on exposure to evidence, my understanding and interpolation of that evidence and it's integration into my paradigm.
 
A Chinese proverb says “There is a price for gold, but no price for jade” – one can put a price on gold, but jade is priceless. Even though there is no “Jade standard” like gold, emerald still has its price. Just like when buying clothes, you have to look at the textures and colors to judge the value. We call emerald color “se,” and when we talk about texture, we refer to the “water” in the Jade. These two things: color and water, directly determine the value of emerald.
 
Back
Top