Guilt, An Invisible Pattern

[JosephM]

Below is a short writing of mine open for dialog concerning Guilt and its place in us. Feel free to comment or dialog. Your differing or supporting view is welcome and views expressed herein are for your consideration only.
JM

Guilt is an invisible pattern of the mind whether it is in the conscious mind, unconscious mind or both. It is present in most all sentient beings in degrees that range from very slight to extreme. Depending upon its intensity, guilt manifests itself in a wide range of destructive tendencies that include everything from depression, errors in choice, some level of abuse to the body, suicide and everything in between. Guilt causes unconscious selection of choices which lead to suffering as a payment for the guilt and in the worst case to self destruction. These manifestations are in a sense all self-inflicted by the choice of measuring or judging others. Understanding this helps to lift ones level of consciousness to a point that one can choose the positive over the negative to eliminate the cause of this phenomena.

To break free of this invisible pattern it is necessary to realize that which triggers and sustains this pattern within ourselves. If one realizes that we are all connected to one another and all of creation, then we will note that whatever we say, think or do to another, we are doing it to self.

As we go about our daily life, we are presented with an innumerable amount of choices. When someone is speaking to us we sometimes choose to analyze their motives or we choose to entertain preconceived opinions and thoughts that may or may not be accurate. Either way it is not applicable to this moment of now. We may be unconsciously measuring them in a way that creates separateness. In fact any thoughts we have about them that are not founded in unconditional love and peace is a form of measurement or judgment. We may be holding a thought either consciously or unconsciously that they have a problem or are wrong or incorrect in their way. In effect, by our belief, we have made a law by doing so in that we have pronounced judgment on self. If we now commit even a similar act, we are guilty ourselves; we have thus pronounced judgment on self creating unconscious guilt by our perceived belief. Our unconscious attachment to this guilt then attracts the accompanying patterns of manifestations of suffering and afflictions.

Most of us remain consciously unaware of the connection of events and resulting cycle of manifestations of this cycle of guilt that was brought on by our choice to judge or measure another. One must at all times choose unconditional forgiveness and love for all of creation including ourselves. How all this self inflicted suffering came about may be described differently by our choice of belief but the net effect is that it is self-inflicted and requires choosing the positive over the negative to break its cycle. Some call it karma and some sowing and reaping. All may have a slightly different perception or understanding of its workings. Either way, all thoughts and actions, whether one believes or not, creates patterns whether positive or negative. It is these patterns that manifest as degrees of pain and suffering or degrees of love and peace. Guilt is False and destructive and is not a necessary virtue to correct errors in judgments. Whereas, wisdom, understanding and increased awareness will suffice.

Love in Christ,
JM

 

[Paladin]

I may have to read this several times so that it sinks in! But this nails it for me. Sometimes...well much of the time... I am painfully aware of the constant stream of judgements I make of people when I am out in traffic or in the market. After watching it for awhile I have discovered that not only is it very painful on many levels but it seems to happen almost of itself. Not to absolve myself of responsibility but as I watch my mind at work in this way it almost seems as if this stream of judment is happening without me and I am just unconsciously going along with it. I know this may not be making sense, but there are times when I get a reprieve and all at once I can see every individual person near me shining with divine light. In the rare instances when I see this I almost begin to cry with relief.

Peace

 

[JosephM]

I may have to read this several times so that it sinks in! But this nails it for me. Sometimes...well much of the time... I am painfully aware of the constant stream of judgments I make of people when I am out in traffic or in the market. After watching it for awhile I have discovered that not only is it very painful on many levels but it seems to happen almost of itself. Not to absolve myself of responsibility but as I watch my mind at work in this way it almost seems as if this stream of judgment is happening without me and I am just unconsciously going along with it. I know this may not be making sense, but there are times when I get a reprieve and all at once I can see every individual person near me shining with divine light. In the rare instances when I see this I almost begin to cry with relief.

Peace

Hi Paladin,

Yes it does seem that a constant stream of judgments no matter how slight continue to parade before us. It seems to me this is the working of the ego mind. Its survival seems to be based on its re-enforcement of separateness and nothing seems to separate us as much as measuring and judging each other. You are making great progress in that you are aware of the devices of the ego. The more aware and conscious you become of these thoughts the less power they have to render you unconscious of them and falling under the power of these unwelcome thoughts to your true nature.

The light of awareness strips the thoughts of any power and as you surrender them to God and replace them with positive thoughts of love and peace, they dissolve and have less and less effect. The light of awareness exposes them for what they are and you gradually become master of your thoughts rather than they the master of you. Simple awareness and a wish for only love and peace is enough to transform your life totally and break you free of the endless pattern of judgment and guilt and punishment which is self inflicted.

May you continue to be transformed and reside in perfect peace.

Love in Christ,
JM

 

[cyberpi]

I find that guilt is a visible pattern, both personally and in others. This discussion is further evidence of that.

As another example a person knows well at a deep level when they intentionally tell a LIE, because it shows up almost immediately in the body as measured on a polygraph. Those lie detectors have been found to measure extremely well. So the guilt is clearly present in the person regardless of how the person tries to hide it or ignore it. I don't think a person tells a LIE by stating truthfully what he sees, thinks or believes. I think a person tells a LIE or a falsehood by manufacturing information, or by manufacturing the evidence to judge with... to judge without measurement.

Measurement: I consider seeing, hearing, touch, smell, taste, are all forms of measurement... some say there are 5 senses of the body but I think there are a lot more: force, friction, air velocity, temperature, gravity, UV radiation, etc... Some things can be measured, but some important things can not.

I see that a person does NOT set themselves up by measuring and judging others. Instead a person sets themselves up by NOT measuring (seeing), and yet still manufacturing a judgement... or by seeing something and NOT judging. The set-up is caused by guessing at something unseen with lack of measurement and stating it as a fact, or by seeing something and remaining detached and apathetic to it. Regardless of the unseen intentions, the manufactured beliefs can, and do mislead other people. So when the situation is folded over and the person finds themselves on the other side of the situation, and in disagreement with their former selves, then I think the guilty feelings may ensue. Guilt can be a good lesson.

For example, the child becomes the parent and sees in their own actions something they remember hating in their parents. Or a person takes action out of anger or fear and realizes later that he/she was being the monster. Or a person feeds manufactured advice to people but later learns that the advice was wrong and it hurt them. Or a person who judges someone as if they had no choices, only to cause hatred. For example, saying "you are mean" instead of, "Why are you being mean to me?" Or, "You are a pig" instead of, "I wish you would choose to be cleaner." Or, "You are a liar" instead of stating it as, "I want to believe you, but what is this conflicting evidence I see?"

I further see that it is not only by blind judgement that people invite their guilt, but by NOT judging some things seen. For example, the child becomes the parent and does not see themselves doing something that they remembered being sad for when their parents did not do it. Or a person who does not take action for fear or shyness, and then later realizes that he/she could have easily prevented a crime or an accident. Or a person who did NOT listen and place advice with a person, who then commits suicide. Or a person who does NOT judge from some evidence, thinking they really had no choice. For example NOT saying, "I love you." Or NOT saying, "You are hurting me", Or NOT saying, "I need some help."

With children I know, I recommend they use their words. The people who have Loved me are the ones who listened to me and judged me by it... including parents, teachers, doctors, friends, family, and most of all God. I submit that world wars and conflicts are caused first by people who either measured and looked the other way, or apathetically did NOT measure and did NOT care to judge. Then came the people who judged NOT from measurement, and even condemned (hurt, killed, etc...).

I further do not see a cycle. Whether with reason or not, any guilt signals that something is wrong. Can a person be falsely led to believe that they are guilty? I say yes... temporarily. If a weak person hears a lie enough times from a person they loved, I imagine they will believe it... but when the truth is revealed then who is the guilty? Can any person lie to a person that places Faith in them, hurting them, and even temporarily using their guilt and other feelings against them? Absolutely... but when the truth is revealed then who is the guilty? Whether through reconciliation by confession and forgiveness, or by hatred, apathy, and tragedy, or by age, isolation, and moving on... something is always going to change.

 

[Paladin]

Thanks for the encouragement Joe

 

[JosephM]

I find that guilt is a visible pattern, both personally and in others. This discussion is further evidence of that.

(Snip)

Thanks for sharing your perspective cyberpi,

Love in christ,
JM

 

[JosephM]

It is easy to see from reading the posts that the 'effects' of guilt that are visible are easily mistaken for guilt itself. Guilt itself is a silent and invisible entrainment created from all thoughts and actions in general that serve to fortify the illusion of separateness. The most predominant and easy to recognize being judging, condemning, measuring and holding onto un-forgiveness. All vanities in a sense promote guilt because they are naturally unfounded in truth. Just a few more thoughts to contemplate concerning the subject.

Love in Christ,
JM

 

[cyberpi]

It is easy to see from reading the posts that the 'effects' of guilt that are visible are easily mistaken for guilt itself. Guilt itself is a silent and invisible entrainment created from all thoughts and actions in general that serve to fortify the illusion of separateness. The most predominant and easy to recognize being judging, condemning, measuring and holding onto un-forgiveness. All vanities in a sense promote guilt because they are naturally unfounded in truth. Just a few more thoughts to contemplate concerning the subject.

Love in Christ,
JM

If the source of guilt is invisible, then how is it that anyone is able to see it and describe the source? Are you guessing at what you claim is in the dark, or are you able to see it without measuring it? Are you just saying that the guilt in other people is invisible to you? Are you saying that your own guilt is invisible to yourself? Does guilt cause crime?

If a person purposely walks in front of a slow moving car, gets hit, rolls over on the ground, curses, and yells at the driver, "Why did you hit me you blind evil driver? I think my neck is broken now." Is there guilt and with whom? Does this example fit your model?

 

[JosephM]

If the source of guilt is invisible, then how is it that anyone is able to see it and describe the source? Are you guessing at what you claim is in the dark, or are you able to see it without measuring it? Are you just saying that the guilt in other people is invisible to you? Are you saying that your own guilt is invisible to yourself? Does guilt cause crime?
(snip)

Cyberpi,

Invisible with the eyes but not with the Spirit. No guessing here. No I'm not saying that. Neither am I saying that. No, Guilt does not cause crime.

Peace,
JM

 

[JosephM]

(snip)
If a person purposely walks in front of a slow moving car, gets hit, rolls over on the ground, curses, and yells at the driver, "Why did you hit me you blind evil driver? I think my neck is broken now." Is there guilt and with whom? Does this example fit your model?

Hypotheticals don't exist in reality and require no answer. I have no model.

Peace,
JM

 

[cyberpi]

If guilt is invisible then isn't a hypothetical here a requirement? I think that a hypothetical is real information and it is a way of sharing information between individuals. If not, then every class in my education, both grade school and college, were maybe misguided. I answered many hypothetical questions, my answers were judged, and I learned from the judgments. But I slanted towards science and away from the liberal arts.

The question I still have is, what do you (or anyone) believe the source of Guilt is? Genes? Random emotions? Upset stomache? Paranoia? A judgement from another person? A judgement from God?

Answering my own question, I think the source of guilt is either from God, whether in the genes or not, or a socially selected trait resulting from the judgements of other people. Either way I submit that guilt is a very good and positive trait to have both in self and among the people that a person selects to be around. It may be deselective to an individual but it is an important trait for relationships and for a society. I guess I think of it as training wheels though and it does seem like some people can take advantage of it.

I can see guilt. With the right words presented to a person I can usually see it in their actions. I can see it in my own actions. Certainly a person can try to hide it just as they can try to hide every thought or emotion, but doing so re-configures how they behave and I think that can be see too.

I submit that if I do not judge the words and actions of my children then I am NOT loving them. My judgement gives them an example to learn from and they have the choice of whether to listen to it and learn from me, or not to and learn from their own judgement. But if I provide them with no judgement then they are on their own. Note that I am not confusing the word 'judgement' with the word 'condemn'. I do not condemn my children for ignoring me and choosing to do things their own way. If I do condemn them for not following my judgement then I am just serving myself and oppressing them. So to say that any guilt in my children is destructive and is manifested as a consequence from my judgement is partly true, but it is also a consequence from their own judgement and actions. Alternatively the guilt will manifest if they compare what they have done with what they come to think is right or wrong.

I agree with you that judgement brings judgement. It is in some common religions too. If a person says to everyone, "1+1=3", then I come along and judge proclaiming, "No... 1+1=1". Having judged I will have provided information that will also be judged. Should I feel guilty? If I present something that is wrong and misleads people... yes, I will feel guilty. I will have learned from it but I will have also told so many people something that was wrong. I would also feel guilty being a surgeon and failing a surgery, or being a teacher and learning later that I taught something wrong, or being an engineer and designing something that hurts someone, or being a parent and seeing myself repeating my parent's mistakes. In any line of work or relationship I would be reviewing my judgements of myself and others.

I also think guilt can be relieved. I do find that honest confession and being forgiven results in powerful changes.

 

[JosephM]

Hi Cyberpi,

Yes, guilt is invisible and hypothetical are not a requirement. Perhaps your education was misguided if you see it that way.

The source of guilt is judgment by oneself, not from another and not from God.

You may see the effects of guilt in another's actions but you cannot see guilt.

Judgment is not found in love, only mercy and forgiveness in all cases.

As you say, honest confession and forgiveness results in powerful changes which I might add includes the removal of guilt.

Love in Christ,
JM

 

[cyberpi]

What did Jesus mean then when he said, "but judge righteous judgement" ?

If a commandment regarding Love was given by Jesus, and all of the Law and Prophets are hung on it, and Jesus further gives that the Law is a matter of Mercy, Faith, and Justice... then how is judgement and justice not a part of Love? Are all of the Law and the Prophets only a matter of mercy and forgiveness? Is it not also, "Judge others as you would have them judge you"? I find that Love is an open word defined by a relationship between two souls, and I see a lot more than mercy and forgiveness. How about charity? Patience... the sacrifice of time or opportunity?

 

[JosephM]

What did Jesus mean then when he said, "but judge righteous judgement" ?

If a commandment regarding Love was given by Jesus, and all of the Law and Prophets are hung on it, and Jesus further gives that the Law is a matter of Mercy, Faith, and Justice... then how is judgement and justice not a part of Love? Are all of the Law and the Prophets only a matter of mercy and forgiveness? Is it not also, "Judge others as you would have them judge you"? I find that Love is an open word defined by a relationship between two souls, and I see a lot more than mercy and forgiveness. How about charity? Patience... the sacrifice of time or opportunity?

Good question cyberpi. John 7:24
Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

The Greek word used for Judge is 'krino' meaning properly 'to distinguish'.
Jesus is saying not to distinguish/perceive according to 'opsis' sight, but distinguish/perceive 'dakiaos' innocent/holy perception.

The sense of sight is not being used. In effect judgment is being left to God.

Mercy and Faith are integral but God's Justice is always to pardon. Love cannot condemn. It is not in the nature of Love which is God's essence.
God's love is not an open word defined by a relationship between two souls. God's love is more 'a state of being'.

You say, is it not also "judge others as you would have them judge you" . I don't know about you but I prefer not to have others judge me at all. So where is judgment except as a concept in the mind of men to breed guilt and self condemnation?

Love in Christ,
JM

 

[Dondi]

I'm not sure where this guilt discussion is leading here. But there are several aspects of guilt that needs to be defined. There is a judicial guilt, brought down by the judgement of the community. Then there is personal guilt, brought on by our own sense of conscience. Then there is induced guilt brought on by one's influence over another, whether or not the accusation is valid.

To judge implies to compare one thing to another. This would also imply that one of the things in the comparasion is "right", regardless of what the other thing is, for that other thing could be "right" or "wrong". In other words, there is a standard by which we compare things.

This standard could be stated in a common moral code shared by the community (such in the form of laws), or in our own personal convictions that we have developed on our own through our experiences and learning and conscience. Or perhaps a combination of both.

Judgement in the community begins with that common moral code. In the U.S. judicial system, for example, a person is deemed guilty or not guilty based on the evidence presented to a jury of his peers. The reason for jury pools and selection is to lessen the chance of a biased judgement. But no matter how careful the process, there will still be an element of bias. So the system is not entirely foolproof. Such as it is, it is the best we can come up with. But for the most part, justice is served.

We have to have judgement in the community. Otherwise their is chaos.

In our own personal judgements, we see have a wider range of varying biases, simply because as individuals we differ from one another so much. Your background is not my background, so your basis of judgement will differ from mine. One might believe that abortion is perfectly fine, while another believes it is murder. Personal judgement thus becomes relative and for the most part irrelevant and useless in attaining a goal of peacable living with one another.

The felt guilt of a person will be determined by the varying factors of personal convictions and any external factors (moral code, accusations). If one believes they have done something wrong, they will have a sense guilt, provided their conscience hasn't been seared to the point of apathy. The guilt could be valid or invalid.

For example, one who has been sexually abused may feel a degree of guilt that it is all their fault. They should not have provoked the other person to abuse them, so they are told. The problem here is that the abused person has no frame of reference in which to judge. Actually, they do have a frame of reference (the abuser), but that reference is flawed. Their sense of right and wrong is distorted, because in our society, sexual abuse is wrong. But until that abused person learns this, they are stuck with the flaw. And even when it is learned, it is very difficult to transcend the paradigm that they are so used to.

In regards to God's Justice, there must be a judgement in which Love can operate. There must be a standard with which God is guiding us toward, for in order to induce an effectual change in our lives there must be a determination between what we are now and what God wants us to become. If we are left to our own device, then we are just swirling around in our own self-righteousness.

 

[JosephM]

I'm not sure where this guilt discussion is leading here. But there are several aspects of guilt that needs to be defined. There is a judicial guilt, brought down by the judgement of the community. Then there is personal guilt, brought on by our own sense of conscience. Then there is induced guilt brought on by one's influence over another, whether or not the accusation is valid.

To judge implies to compare one thing to another. This would also imply that one of the things in the comparasion is "right", regardless of what the other thing is, for that other thing could be "right" or "wrong". In other words, there is a standard by which we compare things.

This standard could be stated in a common moral code shared by the community (such in the form of laws), or in our own personal convictions that we have developed on our own through our experiences and learning and conscience. Or perhaps a combination of both.

Judgement in the community begins with that common moral code. In the U.S. judicial system, for example, a person is deemed guilty or not guilty based on the evidence presented to a jury of his peers. The reason for jury pools and selection is to lessen the chance of a biased judgement. But no matter how careful the process, there will still be an element of bias. So the system is not entirely foolproof. Such as it is, it is the best we can come up with. But for the most part, justice is served.

We have to have judgement in the community. Otherwise their is chaos.

In our own personal judgements, we see have a wider range of varying biases, simply because as individuals we differ from one another so much. Your background is not my background, so your basis of judgement will differ from mine. One might believe that abortion is perfectly fine, while another believes it is murder. Personal judgement thus becomes relative and for the most part irrelevant and useless in attaining a goal of peacable living with one another.

The felt guilt of a person will be determined by the varying factors of personal convictions and any external factors (moral code, accusations). If one believes they have done something wrong, they will have a sense guilt, provided their conscience hasn't been seared to the point of apathy. The guilt could be valid or invalid.

For example, one who has been sexually abused may feel a degree of guilt that it is all their fault. They should not have provoked the other person to abuse them, so they are told. The problem here is that the abused person has no frame of reference in which to judge. Actually, they do have a frame of reference (the abuser), but that reference is flawed. Their sense of right and wrong is distorted, because in our society, sexual abuse is wrong. But until that abused person learns this, they are stuck with the flaw. And even when it is learned, it is very difficult to transcend the paradigm that they are so used to.

In regards to God's Justice, there must be a judgement in which Love can operate. There must be a standard with which God is guiding us toward, for in order to induce an effectual change in our lives there must be a determination between what we are now and what God wants us to become. If we are left to our own device, then we are just swirling around in our own self-righteousness.

Hello Dondi,

Thank you for your response.
As far as man's law and judgments go your post seems to me to be very insightful and accurate. It seems to me that man's justice and God's justice are two different and opposing paradigms. Romans 8:5
For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
It seems to me that man's justice leads to death where God's justice is peace, love and mercy and leads to life. That seems to me to be the standard God is leading us toward.

If we count ourselves as in Christ then: Romans 8:1
"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."
If there is no condemnation in us then neither will we have it for others. We will not measure nor judge others by appearance. And if one does see a necessity to judge then the verdict in love will always be "pardoned" and mercy will always be present. "Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more."

Love in Christ,
JM

 

[Dondi]

What is the peace, love, and mercy based on?

But is not God's Law summed up in the two greatest commandments to Love God and Love thy neighbor as thyself? How then do we love God and our neighbor?

There are two opposing forces in regards to man, shown in Galatians 5:

Works of the Flesh

"Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. " - Galatians 5:19-21

I submit to you that this is the natural man. It is the sinful, fallen condition of man's nature, which we are all cursed. In varying degrees, we will exhibit some of these traits.

Fruit of the Spirit

"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law." - Galatians 5:22-23

Because of the flesh (our fallen nature), we cannot obtain the kind of life by mere observance of the Law.

However, the Law is a reflection of God's Perfection. Therefore, it is the standard. So the dilemma before us is how to obtain this perfection aside from the Law.

Caveat: As stated before, there needs to be an effectual change between what we are now and what God wants us to become. And this is the determining factor of how we need to judge ourselves.

Since perfection cannot come by observance of the Law, there has to be some other way to attain it. And that is by the Spirit.

So what it becomes is instead of being led by the Law, which is a reflection of God's perfection, we are led by the Spirit of the God of Perfection, Himself dwelling in ourselves. The effectual operation of the Spirit of God in us makes that change we so direly need.

God's purpose is to conform us into the image of His Son. Why? Because Christ lived in that same Spirit that led Him to live a Perfect Life. In Christ, we too can be made perfect.

The standard is still there. Only it is in the standard bearer.

When we are in the Spirit, submitted to God, then we will produce the fruits of peace, love, mercy, longsuffering, gentleness, faith, etc...

 

[JosephM]

What is the peace, love, and mercy based on?

But is not God's Law summed up in the two greatest commandments to Love God and Love thy neighbor as thyself? How then do we love God and our neighbor?

There are two opposing forces in regards to man, shown in Galatians 5:

Works of the Flesh

"Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. " - Galatians 5:19-21

I submit to you that this is the natural man. It is the sinful, fallen condition of man's nature, which we are all cursed. In varying degrees, we will exhibit some of these traits.

Fruit of the Spirit

"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law." - Galatians 5:22-23

Because of the flesh (our fallen nature), we cannot obtain the kind of life by mere observance of the Law.

However, the Law is a reflection of God's Perfection. Therefore, it is the standard. So the dilemma before us is how to obtain this perfection aside from the Law.

Caveat: As stated before, there needs to be an effectual change between what we are now and what God wants us to become. And this is the determining factor of how we need to judge ourselves.

Since perfection cannot come by observance of the Law, there has to be some other way to attain it. And that is by the Spirit.

So what it becomes is instead of being led by the Law, which is a reflection of God's perfection, we are led by the Spirit of the God of Perfection, Himself dwelling in ourselves. The effectual operation of the Spirit of God in us makes that change we so direly need.

God's purpose is to conform us into the image of His Son. Why? Because Christ lived in that same Spirit that led Him to live a Perfect Life. In Christ, we too can be made perfect.

The standard is still there. Only it is in the standard bearer.

When we are in the Spirit, submitted to God, then we will produce the fruits of peace, love, mercy, longsuffering, gentleness, faith, etc...

Greetings Dondi,

Yes, I agree.
You ask, What is the peace, love, and mercy based on? These things are based on Love. God is Love. Love is a 'state of being' or one could say the essence of God. That is why God's Law is summed up in the two greatest commandments to Love God and Love thy neighbor as thyself. You ask, How then do we love God and our neighbor? By giving up your life. By reckoning yourself dead to the flesh but alive to the spirit. By casting down every thought that exalts itself against Love.

Love is the invisible standard in which bears the fruits which include joy, peace, mercy, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: and Jesus was a bearer of that standard. The fruits, of course, are not the standard but only the visible effects of such a standard as unconditional love.

Love in Christ,
JM

 

[Dondi]

Greetings Dondi,

Yes, I agree.
You ask, What is the peace, love, and mercy based on? These things are based on Love. God is Love. Love is a 'state of being' or one could say the essence of God. That is why God's Law is summed up in the two greatest commandments to Love God and Love thy neighbor as thyself. You ask, How then do we love God and our neighbor? By giving up your life. By reckoning yourself dead to the flesh but alive to the spirit. By casting down every thought that exalts itself against Love.

Love is the invisible standard in which bears the fruits which include joy, peace, mercy, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: and Jesus was a bearer of that standard. The fruits, of course, are not the standard but only the visible effects of such a standard as unconditional love.

Love in Christ,
JM

Point I'm trying to make is that Love has to based on something. In this case it is about God being Perfect in that Love. And we can say that God is Love because God is Good. But what can we base that Goodness on? Do we base it on our own idea of what Good is? When we think of God being Good, we have to think it is because there is nothing Bad in Him. But what is right and what is wrong? Now we are back to the moral code. Or rather THE Moral Code.

Now when one comes to terms of one's own life, we can therefore measure ourselves to that Moral Code. For if we are led by the Spirit, then we are led to that which is Good.

Coming full circle to the idea of guilt. I think a degree of guilt is necessary to induce change. We must have conviction in our own walk with God over what is right and what is wrong. If we don't see ourselves as needing change, then we won't change. As Jesus said, "They that are whole need not a physician; but they that are sick."

The Moral Code is merely the recognition of what is needed in our walk with God. It is merely a guide. As we submit areas in our life to God that we do not have power over, the Spirit will take us to where we need to be. We have to allow the Great Physician do His work in us.

 

[cyberpi]

Good question cyberpi. John 7:24
Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

The Greek word used for Judge is 'krino' meaning properly 'to distinguish'.
Jesus is saying not to distinguish/perceive according to 'opsis' sight, but distinguish/perceive 'dakiaos' innocent/holy perception.

The sense of sight is not being used. In effect judgment is being left to God.

Mercy and Faith are integral but God's Justice is always to pardon. Love cannot condemn. It is not in the nature of Love which is God's essence.
God's love is not an open word defined by a relationship between two souls. God's love is more 'a state of being'.

You say, is it not also "judge others as you would have them judge you" . I don't know about you but I prefer not to have others judge me at all. So where is judgment except as a concept in the mind of men to breed guilt and self condemnation?

Love in Christ,
JM

I read Jesus as saying do not judge what you can't possibly see by the appearance. For example: do not judge a person's knowledge by their face. It is the interpolation and extrapolation that brings in errors and fabrications.

For that matter, I am NOT able to judge what I can't see (period)... without manufacturing a lie or a fable. Can you? If the eye is the lamp of the body, then what does a person judge by without it? Darkness? I submit that you and I are judging each others words now, with our eyes, and the very meaning of Jesus' words. Are we not?

The translated Greek words are the same as every use of the word, including, "Judge not lest you be judged", and "Judge not, and you will not be judged"... so when Jesus says to judge righteous judgement, I submit that it IS still with the eye or the ear.

Per John 7... I seek God's judgement, his judgement of me, and for what is right regarding guilt. I seek his judgement so that I might learn and become a better person. In doing so I am saying that I recognize the understanding that comes from heaven is far above me... I wish to learn it. Furthermore I seek the judgement from people. Whether I learn from them, or they learn from me, I see the sharing of judgement to be beneficial for people. A person is welcome to trash my judgement at any time... and I hope they do if my judgement is evil.

Where have I said anything about condemn? Condemn and judge are two different words. Man's form of judicial 'judge and jury' aim to convict... to condemn... to imprison, fine, or kill. If they merely judged and offered their opinion, then it would only be a judgement they provide. I say lets clearly separate the 'rebuke' from the 'condemn'. One adds, the other removes. Complete opposites. The 'rebuke' or 'judgement' adds, but the 'condemn' removes from a person. Did not Jesus (pbuh) judge people and yet did not condemn them?

If I am forgiven as I forgive others... forgiving itself is a judgement that I make. Is a judge and jury incapable of forgiving? If there is no method of forgiveness then it seems they are not judging. A forensic computer programmed with the law could offer the verdict and be more accurate... for I think that a computer has no soul and does not judge. The programmer does.

I feel that with the theory of guilt you have provided, judge and condemn are combined into one, so that nobody can say anything to each other without condemning each other. As I see it, everyone who says a word has made a judgement. So if I'm responsible for causing the guilt someone has instilled in themselves by my judgement, or for counter-judging me... then I'd be in trouble for my every word.

Some other sayings from Jesus (per the gospels) that I think are worth considering:
"Yes, and why even of yourselves judge you not what is right?"
"Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him."
"I have many things to say and to judge of you..."
"And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world."
"I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgement is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me."
"He that rejects me, and receives not my words, hath one that judges him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day."
"What I tell you in darkness, that speak you in light: and what you hear in the ear, that preach you upon the housetops"
"Therefore speak I to them in parables: because seeing they see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand."
"But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear."
"For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgement unto the Son:"