STEPHEN BREYER:
Well, I'd like to have a voire dire. I'd like to hear what the witnesses are
going to say on that point. Because isn't that the relevant point?
JOHNNIE COCHRAN:
I think that-- I think that does kind of crystalize the issues. And I'd like to
address and -- and Dr. Collins, with regard to what the court just said. You-- you've had occasion to examine my client. Is there a likelihood that he did not have-- free will in this regard?
FRANCIS COLLINS:
This is a moderately weak predisposing factor of intense scientific interest
because it may help us understand what to do for this disease. But I would
certainly not argue that this particular DNA sequence does anything to
abolish the importance of free will.
And let me make one parallel here that I think is really worth thinking
about. You and I, and about half the people in this room are predisposed to get in trouble with the law at about a tenfold increased risk than the other half of the people in the room. And that's because we have a Y-chromosome.
CHARLES OGLETREE:
And what do you mean by Y-chromosome, so we'll be clear to this audience what you're talking about?
FRANCIS COLLINS:
So all males have a Y chromosome, we have an X and a Y. All females have two X chromes--
CHARLES OGLETREE:
And that influences predisposition?
FRANCIS COLLINS:
Well, we don't understand the connection in terms of the biological pathways but the fact remains that males get in trouble with the law a lot more often than females. And yet, that is not used as an argument to say that males are not responsible for their actions. At least I haven't heard it used.
(LAUGHTER)
JOHNNIE COCHRAN:
I want to just ask – if I may – I want to just ask Doctors Goldman and Doctor Hamer whether or not you agree with Doctor Collins in that regard.
DAVID GOLDMAN:
Not completely. There was another finding in our study which is that people who have this variant and who drink do tend to be more impulsive and have actual problems with violence. And so it's an interesting thing that although it's-- you could call it a “gene for alcoholism" or a gene that contributes to alcoholism vulnerability but no genes really act in this type of narrow fashion. The brain and the genome--
VICTORIA TOENSING:
Well, does that take away their free will?
DAVID GOLDMAN:
Are compartmentalized-- well it doesn't take away their free will…
VICTORIA TOENSING :
Thank you, no further questions. (LAUGHTER)
JOHNNIE COCHRAN:
Would you allow him to finish, counsel?
CHARLES OGLETREE:
Let me just move for a second, assuming that we've got that. Just as a
member of the public, hearing this, is this something the public wants to
hear? Needs to hear?
NADINE STROSSEN:
I'm very disturbed about this and I would love to have a chance to talk to Mr. Cochran about the potential adverse social consequences, particularly for the Tracy Islanders. And I-- we heard it-- from Victoria Toensing when she said the flip side of the defense of this particular individual is an indictment, so to speak, of not only him but the entire community. [LOWER THIRD: Nadine Strossen/President/American Civil Liberties Union]
Aha! They are admitting that they have a predisposition, not only to drink,
but to become unconscious and to commit violent acts. We know where Brad Blueblood is going to go with that. Why don't we lock them up? You know, we've got one in preventive detention. Why not keep him there and keep the rest of them there?
JOHNNIE COCHRAN:
If you're my client, and certainly I would be concerned about the community and the impact – I'm always against stereotypical kind of thinking. But if I have a job to represent my client, do I say, “Hey this is bad for the community,” so I let him go off to prison? [LOWER THIRD: Johnnie L Cochran, Jr/Defense Attorney]
NADINE STROSSEN:
I heard your client actually make that point when he said he had some
concerns.
JOHNNIE COCHRAN:
So, he may have some concerns, but he’s gonna – but when I explain to him if you don't make this argument, this police officer is still dead. And I have scientists who say there is some likelihood that the justice – judge allows me to do this. It's a legitimate scientific defense. And a trier of fact will have to make that decision.
**STEPHEN BREYER:
The question that immediately comes to mind that I'd like to ask the
witnesses-- or the experts is-- is the following:
There are children who have abusive parents. Now, take one of those
children and let him grow up to the age of 18. He may commit crimes. In
fact, I suspect he's predisposed to do it, a lot of them. Because of that
background. And tell that child, “control yourself.” It's hard for that child
to control himself. Very hard. Now, what I'd like to know is if we have this
ten percent probability that your genes are one way or the other Is it any
harder for this person to control themself in respect to alcohol than it is for
that person who grew up with an abusive family?
**FRANCIS COLLINS:
Justice, you make an extremely good point. And I think what it means to be human, and what it means to make decisions, and the responsibility for that is not going to be made obsolete by our uncovering the genetic script. And just as you are saying very eloquently, all of us face things where we have to make choices between right and wrong that are difficult. We all carry something in the way of baggage that makes those choices hard. But I can't see why genetics should be put into a special category and considered as an excuse if other social conditions are not.
STEPHEN BREYER:
So – so you'll say that in fact, if you have the gene, well, it's tougher not to drink. But you have that choice. We're not going to say you couldn't do
otherwise.
FRANCIS COLLINS:
Exactly.
STEPHEN BREYER:
All right. Well, if it's something like that…we're tough on that. And we
expect people to rise to that occasion despite backgrounds that are very, very difficult. So before this— science begins to change something like that, I think there's a lot ahead of us.
