Where is Buddhism going?

[Vajradhara]

When the Buddha sat for six years under the bodhi tree who was his teacher?

Namaste citizenzen,

thank you for the post.

that period of time was during his practice with the ascetics and he, indeed, had a teacher. the Buddha had two teachers prior to striking out on his own, Alara Kalama and Uddaka Ramaputta. given that this period of time is prior to his Awakening and Lion's Roar of the Dharma i'm not sure how it's applicable to a Buddhists practice.

with regards to teachers and dharma companions the Buddha makes it clear that beings new to the Buddhist teachings will benefit tremendously from a teacher, indeed some beings make no progress along the path without such guidance.

is such applicable for all beings? nope and the Buddha made that clear as well. nevertheless, one of the most frequently cited Suttas of the Buddhas is the Kalama Sutta (AN 3.65) which is often taken to be a license for free inquiry into the Dharma however, this view fails to take into account the actual text of the Sutta past the oft quoted:

"...Kalamas, don't go by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, by logical conjecture, by inference, by analogies, by agreement through pondering views, by probability, or by the thought, 'This contemplative is our teacher.' When you know for yourselves that, 'These qualities are unskillful; these qualities are blameworthy; these qualities are criticized by the wise; these qualities, when adopted & carried out, lead to harm & to suffering' — then you should abandon them."

in this very same Sutta the Buddha indicates that the process of determining the correct teachings to follow, in addition to the process listed above, are those practices which are praised by "the wise". in the Buddhas parlance "the wise" refers to the primary group of monastics whom formed the initial Sangha.

the Maha-mangala Sutta (Sn2.4) also reinforces the idea that association with the wise is of paramount benefit:

Not consorting with fools,
consorting with the wise,
paying homage to those worthy of homage:
This is the highest protection.

the import of a teacher is also clearly indicated in the process of Going for Refuge as a Buddhist takes refuge in the Buddha, Dharma and Sangha, the teacher, the teaching and the group of beings that put the teachings into practice.

metta,

~v

 

[citizenzen]

"...Kalamas, don't go by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, by logical conjecture, by inference, by analogies, by agreement through pondering views, by probability, or by the thought, 'This contemplative is our teacher.' When you know for yourselves that, 'These qualities are unskillful; these qualities are blameworthy; these qualities are criticized by the wise; these qualities, when adopted & carried out, lead to harm & to suffering' — then you should abandon them."

"When you know for yourself."

This is the key phrase here. Nobody can impart enlightenment upon you. It is self-realization that happens in its own time, of its own accord.

Teachers, wise friends, sanghas can provide support and counsel. I would never deny that. But they are not a necessary component to awakening.

And while I would never presume to tell anyone to not have a teacher (because I have had them and found the experiences quite rewarding) I think it's important to remember and embody the fact that we are responsible for our enlightenment, not sangha, not scriptures, not teachers, not saviors. When we know for ourselves.

Will it take me longer to reach enlightenment without a teacher? Yes, it probably will. Do flowers need to open faster than they do? Does fruit need a teacher to ripen? These things happen naturally, on their own and for now that is the path that I follow as well.

Here's a Buddhist story (paraphrased horribly) that you've probably heard before, but others may not have...

A teacher had all his monks line up and he went down the line assaying each of his charges. To every monk the teacher said, "You will experience enlightenment in this lifetime," until he came to the last monk in line. To that monk he said, "You will experience enlightenment in 100,000 lifetimes." To which the monk responded with great joy, "I'm going to be a Buddha in 100,000 lifetimes! I'm going to be a Buddha in 100,000 lifetimes!"

The point isn't how soon we get there, but that we practice with both joy and diligence no matter how long it takes. That is how I hope to live my life and how I hope to become a Buddha.

 

[Vajradhara]

Namaste citizenzen,

thank you for the post.

"When you know for yourself."

This is the key phrase here. Nobody can impart enlightenment upon you. It is self-realization that happens in its own time, of its own accord.

i'd be more than pleased to have a conversation on the purpose and scope of the Kalama Sutta with you at some time however this thread doesn't seem to be the place for it

i would suggest, however, that the Buddhas instructions in this regard are specific to the Kalamas and their situation.

Awakening has factors which can be developed through practice though each fruit is ripened at its own pace.

Teachers, wise friends, sanghas can provide support and counsel. I would never deny that. But they are not a necessary component to awakening.

indeed, this is so.. for some beings. it would be a mistake to presume that this is true for all beings, however. indeed, a being can Awaken without even the Dharma being present on a world system so Awakening, in and of itself, is something which is a natural process available to all beings at some point or another.

And while I would never presume to tell anyone to not have a teacher (because I have had them and found the experiences quite rewarding) I think it's important to remember and embody the fact that we are responsible for our enlightenment, not sangha, not scriptures, not teachers, not saviors. When we know for ourselves.

all beings are responsible for their actions, even their Awakening. the Buddha frequently makes mention of the fact that he is a guide that can lead a being to the door but the being must be the one to walk through.

many times beings which advocate the Dharma path without guidance or teachers seem to have an idea about wise companions which is a product of a different philosophical paradigm. one which often sees the spiritual development of a being as an accomplisment or feat of some other agency than the particular being in question. i've read many influential Western Buddhists writings regarding the lack of a need for teachers or wise companions and i, personally, think that reflects a serious deficiency in their grounding in the Suttas.

of course and we must needs be clear here since dispite years of saying it, it seems like it must be said in every thread... these are my thoughts only based on my own limited understanding of the Suttas and Shastras.

The point isn't how soon we get there, but that we practice with both joy and diligence no matter how long it takes. That is how I hope to live my life and how I hope to become a Buddha.

i'm not sure that having a teacher or wise companions decreases or increases the amount of time it would take to Awaken or become a Buddha.. i actually think that they have little to do with it one way or the other as my view is more akin to the Sudden Awakening schools of thought.

of course as the Ch'an schools would explain practice is Awakening, there is no difference

metta,

~v

 

[Snoopy]

of course and we must needs be clear here since dispite years of saying it, it seems like it must be said in every thread... these are my thoughts only based on my own limited understanding of the Suttas and Shastras.

If we had signatures we could all put this as our default

of course as the Ch'an schools would explain practice is Awakening, there is no difference

Indeed.

"To practice throughout the way is to actualise the limitless realm of the buddha way and to illuminate all aspects of the buddha way. The buddha way is under everyone's heel. Immersed in the way, clearly understand right on the spot. Immersed in enlightenment, you yourself are complete."

- Dogen: Guidelines for Studying the Way.
(Trans. Ed Brown and Kazuaki Tanahashi).
​

s.

 

[Zenda71]

My view of Buddha's teachers is that he was influenced by them, and therefore they play a role in his realization, just as everything that we interact with influences us in some way. I agree that awakening is something we realize individually; no one can do it for us. But I think too that it is disingenuous to say that the Buddha's teachers did not play a role in helping him toward that realization. That's just my view as an aspiring practitioner still caught in the net of samsara. If it doesn't work for you, to heck with it... who cares!

 

[citizenzen]

But I think too that it is disingenuous to say that the Buddha's teachers did not play a role in helping him toward that realization. That's just my view as an aspiring practitioner still caught in the net of samsara. If it doesn't work for you, to heck with it... who cares!

We care. That's why we're here.

Like you said, we are shaped and influenced by all aspects of our life. I find teachers everywhere, some are conventional, some totally unexpected.

What I find a lot in religion is a desire to follow something to achieve salvation. But if we look at the great prophets, they were not followers, they were leaders and innovators. This is something that I try to talk about here. Be a leader. Create your religion, even if it's built on the foundation of an existing one.

 

[Zenda71]

We care. That's why we're here.

Like you said, we are shaped and influenced by all aspects of our life. I find teachers everywhere, some are conventional, some totally unexpected.

What I find a lot in religion is a desire to follow something to achieve salvation. But if we look at the great prophets, they were not followers, they were leaders and innovators. This is something that I try to talk about here. Be a leader. Create your religion, even if it's built on the foundation of an existing one.

I mean, who cares what I think! In 10 minutes, I won't even care!

Thanks for sharing your view. I think that ultimately the religion bit doesn't matter. The realization is what matters and that is beyond religion. (As one teacher says, when you are a Buddha you are no longer a Buddhist.) But in the meantime, for me anyway, the organized system of religion helps. Clearly I am no great prophet or innovator... C'est la vie...

 

[citizenzen]

Clearly I am no great prophet or innovator...

I'll bet that's not what your friends would say.

You might be further ahead of the pack than you think.