The Bab

[Popeyesays]

I would not suggest the Muslim forum, because the rules of the board say one cannot use one's own protected forum to attack other faiths.

The comparative religion board would be best. Imran does not realize that this particular board (all of its topic areas) is not really 'debate' oriented. Imran does not seem to be very effective unless his forum is protected, that's why he keeps referring people to his website rather than face the issues here or in some other neutral forum.

Regards,
Scott

 

[imranshaykh]

Greetings.
Except, of course, when you want to trumpet human-originated ideas like the claim that Islam prohibits music when the Qu'ran says no such thing! Once again, mere human traditions don't qualify as God's Word.

And indeed, in the Baha'i Writings God has made clear the high and very spiritual station that music can and should occupy--the exact opposite of what these so-called "Islamic traditions" say!

EXCEPT, of course, if that person is Baha'i, in which case you apparently don't object to his or her being threatened and executed for refusing to convert to Islam, as your own refusal to condemn this has made very clear! :-(

You will forgive us, I trust, if we don't find your picture of Islam the least bit attractive. Thank God its reality is infinitely more wonderful than the shoddy and distorted image you have presented here!

Peace,
Bruce

I m not here to trumpet my own ideas - least of all sell Islam on this forum. That is clearly not my objective. You asked about music so I gave it to you. You can choose to accept or reject it.

Regards,

 

[imranshaykh]

Imran,

I would like to suggest something to you that you obviously don't understand. The Baha'is are not pernicious, something that you would be familiar with because you are surrounded by pernicious people. They are a loving, supporting culture, dedicated to the worshipping of God/Allah in their very life and daily decisions.

Baha'is do not have an agenda. The Baha'is simply are following the Truths of God as given us by His most recent Manifestation, Baha'u'llah. Again, I would suggest, you are used to dealing with people with an agenda and so are always looking for the hidden meanings and motivations. It is why we answer questions instead of proselytizing.

The Baha'is are a vast and diverse network found throughout the world in all cultures and countries. They are not a populace of sheep, following the whims or translations of the clergy. Each one has and continues to Investigate individually, looking for the Truths of God/Allah, and, amazingly, coming to the same conclusions. Well, not so amazing, because we are told if we search with our heart, we will recognize the "Spirit of God/Allah". If we search with an agenda or a preconceived notion, then our logical and rational mind, God/Allah gave us, will be clouded. Many of these Baha'is are scholars, involved in academia in many different studies. Many of us are only lowly citizens serving God/Allah. All have come to the same message through investigation, prayer and love of God/Allah.

The Baha'is wish no harm to anybody. No one. Not even those that are causing such pain and suffering to Baha'is in Iran, that only those familiar with their plight could imagine. People like you and I. We both know what is being done to these loving people. We both know that without the dogmatic thoughts of man, these acts could not be justified. Surely, not by any of the writings of the Great Manifestations. Again, you may find this confusing, because you and yours do wish harm on anybody that wouldn't accept your brand of worship, as you have confessed to in this forum. You even have a derogatory name for those that don't think/believe as you do.

If it seems that some of your ideas, that took you two days to research and to write about, were dismissed in a short time, it is because, these hackneyed, trite expressions of discord are not new. We have heard them so many times before. They really have little meaning to us in the Realm of God/Allah. If it seems some of us are not as polite as you or as you would expect in your style of society, forgive us. Many of us have not bothered to acquire a "learned politeness", and sometimes we react to things that hurt us dearly, such as the atrocities that are being laid upon the heads of my Baha'i brothers and sisters in Iran and other Mid-eastern countries.

The Baha'is will have dialogue with you forever. They will pray for your understanding of the Righteousness of Baha'u'llah and the power of His world changing Message. They will not shy away from your accusations, nor will they waver in their "discovered" Truths of God/Allah. We can only hope that, some day, you will see at least a sliver of light shining from the works of Baha'u'llah.

Mick

Dear Mick:

Thank you for your post. I wish to clarify that:

I am only here to further my understanding of the Bahai Faith and its origins. If I am Muslim and the Bahai Faith is the next in the line of dispensations from Allah, then I must accept it.

But should one accept it just like that? I should think not. So I focus on reading Bahai books (not Bahai literature) and whatever questions arise, I try to discuss it with Bahais. Unfortunately, most Bahais take it as a personal insult when one questions them about something that they are uncomfortable with. And this is where the problem arises. So if ou are uncomfortable with my questioning, tell me, I will go. But it is difficult to accept statements which are without any proof.

For example, I am prompted by the Bahais to accept that the Bab was the 12th Imam. "Bab was the Mahdi - the promised Mahdi." Now when I say that in the book of Sahifae Adaliyah, the Bab says that Mohammed Ibnil Hasan was the Mahdi, then I am told that the book is a forgery or that Bab was the spirit of the Mahdi. Now where is the proof that the Bab said that he was the return of the spirit of the Mahdi? Did the Bab himself say that? Or did Bahaullah say that? On one hand we should focus on the Bab being the Mahdi when the Bab himself is crying out hoarse that he was not the Mahdi, but Mohammed Ibnil Hasan was. Now these are logical questions which arise when one actually reads the books of the Bab. Whom should we raise this question to, but to the Bahais who hae accepted the Bab as the Mahdi. One cant really put these questions to a Muslim right? So I ask the Bahais and they dont like it. What should one do? So I ask different Bahais and all of them dont like the questioning.

But in every question, there is no question of "winning" or "losing" the debate. Every person focusses only on my web site and I tell them that if you can find a single error on my web site for the books which I have referred to, then let me know. I am asked to read Bahai books like "God Passes By" wherein Shoghi refers to the Bab as the Mahdi. I say, one minute, why is then the Bba saying that he was not the Mahdi - why is he saying in Tafseere' Surah Kausar that while he was in Mecca, he saw another person standing next to the Holy Kaaba and he thought that that person was Mohammed Ibnil Hasan, the Mahdi? So whom should one believe - the Bab or Shoghi?

So I am told I am surrounded by pernicious people, or that I am prejudiced or deceitful, two-faced, manipulative. Incidentally, all these titles came from the Bahais themselves, I never called any person names. For all the peace-loving Bahais, this is what I got for asking one question - Why did the Bab say that Mohammed Ibnil Hasan was the Mahdi?

If it makes you all a lot comfortable, I will stop asking the question. But sadly, it will remain unanswered.

Mick, I too love you and will pray for all Bahais.

Regards,

 

[imranshaykh]

Let's think this through, Imran.












By this list the 12th Imam is referred to as the Mahdi, right?
By His return from Mecca, the Bab was claiming to BE the return of the 12th Imam--not the return of the body of Muhammad ibn Hassan, but the return in spirit--SO, if the Bab claims that ibn Hasan is the Mahdi then the Bab is also claiming to be the Mahdi returned.

To my understanding Muhammad ibn Hasan was not given the title of Mahdi until after his occultation, and he was given the title because of his occultation and promised return.

The Bab was that return.

Regards,
Scott

Dear Scott:

The title of Mahdi was given to the 12th Imam much before his birth.

Is there any documentary proof for what you are telling me that the Bab considered himself as the return of the spirit of Mohammed Ibnil Hasan?

Regards,

 

[BruceDLimber]

BruceDLimber][/B]
...

{Following the valid point raised that the Qur'an commands there be no compulsion in religion. (2:256)]

EXCEPT, of course, if that person is Baha'i, in which case you apparently don't object to his or her being threatened and executed for refusing to convert to Islam, as your own refusal to condemn this has made very clear! :-(

Imran, your complete failure to respond to this point--indeed, your apparent avoidance of it!--has been yet again duly noted. :-(

How extremely sad.

Bruce

 

[Popeyesays]

Dear Scott:

The title of Mahdi was given to the 12th Imam much before his birth.

Is there any documentary proof for what you are telling me that the Bab considered himself as the return of the spirit of Mohammed Ibnil Hasan?

Regards,

Not the "spirit", Imran, the "essence", just as John fulfilled the requirement of Elijah appearing before the Messiah. A person with the same qualities, to fulfill the same role.

 

[Popeyesays]

"I am only here to further my understanding of the Bahai Faith and its origins. If I am Muslim and the Bahai Faith is the next in the line of dispensations from Allah, then I must accept it. "

That's nonsense, Imran. You have never had the intention to investigate with an open mind, if you had you would suggest that others investigate with an open mind.

As to the information on your website, who controls that information? You do. Who would make absolutely sure to put nothing on there that would contradict what you have said? You do.

"Thus doth the Nightingale utter His call unto you from this prison. He hath but to deliver this 210 clear message. Whosoever desireth, let him turn aside from this counsel and whosoever desireth let him choose the path to his Lord.
O people, if ye deny these verses, by what proof have ye believed in God? Produce it, O assemblage of false ones.
Nay, by the One in Whose hand is my soul, they are not, and never shall be able to do this, even should they combine to assist one another."
(Compilations, Baha'i Prayers, p. 209)

 

[Popeyesays]

"why is he saying in Tafseere' Surah Kausar that while he was in Mecca, he saw another person standing next to the Holy Kaaba and he thought that that person was Mohammed Ibnil Hasan, the Mahdi? So whom should one believe - the Bab or Shoghi?"

On one day, Jesus took some of His disciples up onto the mountain where they beheld the figures of Moses and Elijah standing with Jesus, it's called The Transfiguration.
"9:28 And it came to pass about an eight days after these sayings, he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray.
9:29 And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering.
9:30 And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias: 9:31 Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem."

If the Bab and Mohammed Ibnil Hasan were there together, then it is evidence of the same Transfiguration, an annointment of the Bab by His predecessor.

 

[Mick]

Dear Mick:

Thank you for your post. I wish to clarify that:

I am only here to further my understanding of the Bahai Faith and its origins. If I am Muslim and the Bahai Faith is the next in the line of dispensations from Allah, then I must accept it.

But should one accept it just like that? I should think not. So I focus on reading Bahai books (not Bahai literature) and whatever questions arise, I try to discuss it with Bahais. Unfortunately, most Bahais take it as a personal insult when one questions them about something that they are uncomfortable with. And this is where the problem arises. So if you are uncomfortable with my questioning, tell me, I will go. But it is difficult to accept statements which are without any proof.

I won't even respond to the "innocent" claim of being a lowly seeker. I haven't seen anybody become 'insulted' by your questions; only tired of your not accepting an explanation. You do not want explanations, in my opinion, but are only looking for argument and debate. You are openly debating Scott and are not attempting to disguise this debate with the 'claim of questions'. Why would you bother to make that claim with me?

For example, I am prompted by the Bahais to accept that the Bab was the 12th Imam. "Bab was the Mahdi - the promised Mahdi." Now when I say that in the book of Sahifae Adaliyah, the Bab says that Mohammed Ibnil Hasan was the Mahdi, then I am told that the book is a forgery or that Bab was the spirit of the Mahdi. Now where is the proof that the Bab said that he was the return of the spirit of the Mahdi? Did the Bab himself say that? Or did Bahaullah say that? On one hand we should focus on the Bab being the Mahdi when the Bab himself is crying out hoarse that he was not the Mahdi, but Mohammed Ibnil Hasan was. Now these are logical questions which arise when one actually reads the books of the Bab. Whom should we raise this question to, but to the Bahais who hae accepted the Bab as the Mahdi. One cant really put these questions to a Muslim right? So I ask the Bahais and they dont like it. What should one do? So I ask different Bahais and all of them dont like the questioning.

You weren't prompted by any Baha'i to accept anything. You asked questions. Many of the Baha'is here have lovingly, at least passionately, explained the Baha'i belief as they/we understand it. You aren't willing to accept that. That is OK with us. Go on your way, then. That is OK with us, also. We do believe that each of us has the God given right to a free will. Use it. We have used ours. No amount of bantering from you will change that. You see, we see you as friends with some pernicious individuals. Remember the times I have mentioned the torture and murder of my Baha'i friends in Iran that you have chosen to ignore or simply dismiss as not germane to this discussion? I do and until you are willing to address these issues, what you think, believe or feel has little interest to me.

But in every question, there is no question of "winning" or "losing" the debate. Every person focusses only on my web site and I tell them that if you can find a single error on my web site for the books which I have referred to, then let me know. I am asked to read Bahai books like "God Passes By" wherein Shoghi refers to the Bab as the Mahdi. I say, one minute, why is then the Bba saying that he was not the Mahdi - why is he saying in Tafseere' Surah Kausar that while he was in Mecca, he saw another person standing next to the Holy Kaaba and he thought that that person was Mohammed Ibnil Hasan, the Mahdi? So whom should one believe - the Bab or Shoghi?

Both. It has already been explained. You have chosen to ignore it.

So I am told I am surrounded by pernicious people, or that I am prejudiced or deceitful, two-faced, manipulative. Incidentally, all these titles came from the Bahais themselves, I never called any person names. For all the peace-loving Bahais, this is what I got for asking one question - Why did the Bab say that Mohammed Ibnil Hasan was the Mahdi?

I claim the "pernicious" accusation and stand by it. Concerning the other ones let me tell you what my impression is of you, since you brought it up.

1. Deceitful.....yep
2. Two-faced....yep
3. Manipulative...yep

But this isn't about you or shouldn't be, it is whether you are a seeker of Truth of a dissimulator of the ultimate.

If it makes you all a lot comfortable, I will stop asking the question. But sadly, it will remain unanswered.

Mick, I too love you and will pray for all Bahais.

Regards,

Why not try a question concerning Baha'u'llah for a change. I am sure there has to be more than one question in your mind. Thank you. I appreciate all the prayers I can get.

Mick

 

[Promethium]

This is a bit off topic but I read the first post to this topic and found these quotes in response.

"THE recognition of Him Who is the Bearer of divine Truth is none other than the recognition of God, and loving Him is none other than loving God. However, I swear by the sublime Essence of God—exalted and glorified be He—that I did not wish my identity to be known by men, and gave instructions that My name should be concealed, because I was fully aware of the incapacity of this people, who are none other than those who have, in reference to no less a person than the Apostle of God—incomparable as He hath ever been—remarked, ‘He is certainly a lunatic’. 1 If they now claim to be other than those people, their deeds bear witness to the falsity of their assertions. That which God testifieth is none other than what His supreme Testimony testifieth."
-The Bab, (SWB p121)


YUSUFALI: And the Unbelievers would almost trip thee up with their eyes when they hear the Message; and they say: "Surely he is possessed!"
-Quran 68:51

 

[imranshaykh]

[/i]

Imran, your complete failure to respond to this point--indeed, your apparent avoidance of it!--has been yet again duly noted. :-(
How extremely sad.
Bruce

I have responded to this point many times before. Its sad tht you do not wish to accept my explanation of the same.

Regards,

 

[imranshaykh]

Not the "spirit", Imran, the "essence", just as John fulfilled the requirement of Elijah appearing before the Messiah. A person with the same qualities, to fulfill the same role.

In your earlier post, you mentioned spirit. That is why I used the same word. Now you say not spirit, but essence.

Read the text of Sahifae Adaliyah. The Bab makes no mention of spirit, essence or any other word that you can come up with. Again I ask you, is there some documentary proof for this or have you ingeniously thought of this all by yourself? If not the Bab, then did Bahaullah say something about the Bab being the spirit, essence...whatever of the Mahdi?

Did you get a chance to read the text. if you are done with that, I can give you another reference from the same book.

Why would the Bab say that Mohammed Ibnil Hasan is the Mahdi and make no mention of the "spirit" theory?

Regards,

 

[Popeyesays]

I have responded to this point many times before. Its sad tht you do not wish to accept my explanation of the same.

Regards,

I accept your explanation, but that does not make your explanation correct or even cogent.

Again it simply does not matter what the traditions you offer say. Even if they might ever have been correct (and I doubt they were) they no longer apply. Why? Because the Day of Judgment has come and the new Revelation has changed all that.

"Music is a ladder for the soul." says Baha`u'llah. All the correct or incorrect traditions are hereby made null.

Regards,
Scott

 

[imranshaykh]

"why is he saying in Tafseere' Surah Kausar that while he was in Mecca, he saw another person standing next to the Holy Kaaba and he thought that that person was Mohammed Ibnil Hasan, the Mahdi? So whom should one believe - the Bab or Shoghi?"

On one day, Jesus took some of His disciples up onto the mountain where they beheld the figures of Moses and Elijah standing with Jesus, it's called The Transfiguration.
"9:28 And it came to pass about an eight days after these sayings, he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray.
9:29 And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering.
9:30 And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias: 9:31 Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem."

If the Bab and Mohammed Ibnil Hasan were there together, then it is evidence of the same Transfiguration, an annointment of the Bab by His predecessor.

Here is another quotation from Tafseere' Surah Kausar of the Bab which rubbishes your theory. Mind you, it is not me, but the Bab who rubbishes your theory -

The Bab writes, "Imam Sadiq has related in a lengthy tradition, saying: "The occultation of our Qa'im will be denied by the umma. Some will say, without any knowledge: The Imam was never born; others will say: he was born, but he died. Still others will become disbelievers and will say: The eleventh Imam had no offspring at all. Some will spread factionalism in the community by what they say, and will go beyond the twelve Imams and will count thirteen or more Imams. There will be those who will cause God's anger to engulf them by saying: The spirit of the Qa'im is speaking through another person."

Apologies for the language, but I am human as well.

Regards,

 

[Popeyesays]

In your earlier post, you mentioned spirit. That is why I used the same word. Now you say not spirit, but essence.

Read the text of Sahifae Adaliyah. The Bab makes no mention of spirit, essence or any other word that you can come up with. Again I ask you, is there some documentary proof for this or have you ingeniously thought of this all by yourself? If not the Bab, then did Bahaullah say something about the Bab being the spirit, essence...whatever of the Mahdi?

Did you get a chance to read the text. if you are done with that, I can give you another reference from the same book.

Why would the Bab say that Mohammed Ibnil Hasan is the Mahdi and make no mention of the "spirit" theory?

Regards,

Jesus did not explain the appearance of Moses and Elijah either by calling them spirit. The Bab saw the 12th Imam as a confirmation of the Bab's own claim.

That being said, the book you offer is not necessarily correct. It survived in the hands of pernicious forgers and the handwriting of the script has not been verified. And, yes, we know the handwriting of all of the Bab's secretaries and His own hand is quite distinctive.

Regards,
Scott

 

[imranshaykh]

I won't even respond to the "innocent" claim of being a lowly seeker. I haven't seen anybody become 'insulted' by your questions; only tired of your not accepting an explanation. You do not want explanations, in my opinion, but are only looking for argument and debate. You are openly debating Scott and are not attempting to disguise this debate with the 'claim of questions'. Why would you bother to make that claim with me?

Wrong. What else have I done, but to ask one question - About the Bab being the Mahdi of Islam. it is important to me as a Muslim to understand this. Maybe you were born Bahai. I was not. That explains my interest in those matters which the Bahais accept as a matter of fact.

Maybe you were not born Bahai. But you found something in the Bahai Faith that made you accept it. I have not yet graduated to that stage. I am still understanding the Bab.

Why not try a question concerning Baha'u'llah for a change. I am sure there has to be more than one question in your mind. Thank you. I appreciate all the prayers I can get.
Mick

Inshallah, if Allah grants me life, you can be sure that I will do that as well. Pray for my long life. I guarantee that I will make full use of it to study the Bahai Faith.

Regards,

 

[BruceDLimber]

I have responded to this point many times before. Its sad tht you do not wish to accept my explanation of the same.

On the contrary, I've never seen you comment on the topic of the persecution of Baha'is in Iran at all, and as I just pointed out, you've apparently been avoiding the subject when we've raised it!

So I would be most interested in seeing you actually post a comment / statement stating your feelings about this, and whether or not you support the Iranian Baha'is and the freedom to practice their religion which they are being denied.

Simple as that.

Peace,

Bruce

 

[imranshaykh]

Jesus did not explain the appearance of Moses and Elijah either by calling them spirit. The Bab saw the 12th Imam as a confirmation of the Bab's own claim.

That being said, the book you offer is not necessarily correct. It survived in the hands of pernicious forgers and the handwriting of the script has not been verified. And, yes, we know the handwriting of all of the Bab's secretaries and His own hand is quite distinctive.

Regards,
Scott

While I am still debating how much of the present day Bible to use in arguments (I remember reading that even Shoghi accepts that the Quran is the only revelation of Allah which has remained untouched), does it really answer the question? Even if one were to accept your theory for understanding (not argument's sake), it still does not add up. When Jesus saw Moses and Elijah, he did not say that I am Moses and Elijah did he?

I actually gave you only half the quote from the book - the entire quote is -

"One day I was busy praying in the holy mosque of Mecca, on the side of the Yamani pillar (of the Kaaba). I noticed a well built and good looking young man who was deeply involved in performing the circumambulation (tawaf). He had a white turban on his head and a woolen cloak on his shoulder. He was with the merchants' group from Fars. There was no more than a few steps of distance between us. All of a sudden a thought came to my mind that he could be the Master of the Command (sahib al-amr). But I was embarrassed to go closer to him. When I finished my prayers I did not find him. Nevertheless, I am not so sure that he was the Master of the Command."

So:

1. The Bab thought some person else was the 12th Imam
2. This person appeared in person who was performing the actions of tawaf etc
3. If Bab was the spirit, essence whatever of the Mahdi, he could not recognise the person whose return he was?

How is that possible? Just asking

Regards,

 

[BruceDLimber]

I have not yet graduated to that stage. I am still understanding the Bab.

Which is fine, and we commend you therefor!

Best,

Bruce

 

[imranshaykh]

On the contrary, I've never seen you comment on the topic of the persecution of Baha'is in Iran at all, and as I just pointed out, you've apparently been avoiding the subject when we've raised it!

So I would be most interested in seeing you actually post a comment / statement stating your feelings about this, and whether or not you support the Iranian Baha'is and the freedom to practice their religion which they are being denied.

Simple as that.

Peace,

Bruce

The day the Bahais comment on the topic of persecution of the Palestinians at the hands of the Israelites, I will be happy to put down my comment on the persecution of the Bahais in Iran. But frankly, I have no interest in either.

Regards,