The Bab

From:Baha'i News -- Heaven or Hell

"The Baha'i believes that death is also a transition into another realm. There is no physical state for the soul, which progresses eternally after death. After death the soul grows according to God's mercy, though not all souls start in the same position. The state you start out with is determined by the way you lived your life.

Baha'is believe that heaven is a state of being close to God. Hell on the other hand is not being close to God, resulting in suffering and stress from this deprivation.
THE SOUL IS NOT TANGIBLE
According to Ainsley Henriques, Director, United Congregation of Israelites, the Jews believe in life after death and resurrection of the spirit. Judaism however refuses the traditional concept of heaven and hell.
Life has been so rough for Jews, stated Wallace Campbell, another United Congregation of Israelites Director, that they had little time to worry about the afterlife, but rather focused on doing God's duties on earth.
Like, Moses Maimonides, the 12th century philosopher, who maintains that only the immature are motivated by the hopes of reward and fear of punishment, the reward for virtuous living was the good life itself. Rather than speculate on matters of after life, he urged that we should attend to our duties before God. For Mr. Campbell, a lack of resurrection is the hell. A soul delighting in a well-lived life, is in heaven; a soul in remorse is in hell.
Muslims believe that at death, the physical body is finished while the spirit remains, moulded by the individual's deeds - good or bad. The spirit is the seed from which the higher form of life grows within man, higher than physical life. Heaven and hell are not actual places in the universe, but conditions of the spirit resulting from these deeds.
The feeling of bliss and contentment is the heaven of one's heart while guilt, shame and greed felt by an evil doer, is the hell of one's heart. Heaven or hell developed in the heart, unfolds at death and becomes the world in which the individual lives with the spiritual body. Dismissing the concept of reincarnation, Islam teaches that each person is born with a pure soul, free of any burdens from the past life. As such, the best person in God's eyes is the one who acquits himself best in the conditions he meets."

"Thou hast, moreover, asked Me concerning the state of the soul after its separation from the body. Know thou, of a truth, that if the soul of man hath walked in the ways of God, it will, assuredly, return and be gathered to the glory of the Beloved. By the righteousness of God! It shall attain a station such as no pen can depict, or tongue describe. The soul that hath remained faithful to the Cause of God, and stood unwaveringly firm in His Path shall, after his ascension, be possessed of such power that all the worlds which the Almighty hath created can benefit through him. Such a soul provideth, at the bidding of the Ideal King and Divine Educator, the pure leaven that leaveneth the world of being, and furnisheth the power through which the arts and wonders of the world are made manifest. Consider how meal needeth leaven to be leavened with. Those souls that are the symbols of detachment are the leaven of the world. Meditate on this, and be of the thankful.
In several of Our Tablets We have referred to this theme, and have set forth the various stages in the development of the soul. Verily I say, the human soul is exalted above all egress and regress. It is still, and yet it soareth; it moveth, and yet it is still. It is, in 162 itself, a testimony that beareth witness to the existence of a world that is contingent, as well as to the reality of a world that hath neither beginning nor end. Behold how the dream thou hast dreamed is, after the lapse of many years, re-enacted before thine eyes. Consider how strange is the mystery of the world that appeareth to thee in thy dream. Ponder in thine heart upon the unsearchable wisdom of God, and meditate on its manifold revelations....
(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 161)

If a person worships God solely because He hopes for heaven is that fit worship for God? If a person worships God solely because he fears punishment is that fit worship for God?

The answer is no in both cases. If one is secure in one's love of God, one trusts God to do what is best. After all, "God doeth as he willeth and none can say Him nay."

The 'Houri' is actually very important in the Baha`i Faith. It is as the Maid of Heaven that the Revelation of God came to Baha`u'llah. It's a symbol for the knowledge of God,like the Christian concept of Sophia.

In speaking of Shi'ih tradition let's not forget the Mathnavi:
"O God, Thy grace is the proper object of our desire;
To couple others with Thee is not proper.
Nothing is bitterer than severance from Thee,
Without Thy shelter there is naught but perplexity.
Our worldly goods rob us of our heavenly goods,
Our body rends the garment of our soul.
Our hands, as it were, prey on our feet;
Without reliance on Thee how can we live?
And if the soul escapes these great perils,
It is made captive as a victim of misfortunes and fears,
Inasmuch as when the soul lacks union with the Beloved,
It abides forever blind and darkened by itself."
(Mathnavi of Rumi (E.H. Whinfield tr), The Masnavi Vol 1)

Regards,
Scott
 
Greetings!

imranshaykh said:
The question was that how can one reconcile the Muslim viewpoint of a physical resurrection with the Bahai viewpoint of a spiritual one.
Click to expand...

Very simple:

By understanding that in times past when people were less sophisticated and knowledge less general, concepts were often explained in simpler terms than can be used today.

This is in no way a put-down of earlier civilizations and cultures, just a recognition of the fact that these things grow and evolve over time, as do concepts.

No different from telling a two-year-old "don't enter the street!" and a five-year-old "look both ways before crossing."

Peace,

Bruce
 
imranshaykh said:
how does one reconcile the vast collection of verses and traditions to the Bahai Viewpoint?

Regards,
Click to expand...

I would suggest you ask the millions of Muslims that have become followers of the teachings of The Bab and Baha'u'llah. Some of them still live, in spite of the pogroms held against them. Ask them how they reconciled the differences. But if you are truly interested in a cognizant answer, I would suggest you ask the question and then shut-up and take notes. If you are not swept away with their spiritual breadth, then I will still pray for your recognition of the One you long for.

Mick
 
The question was that how can one reconcile the Muslim viewpoint of a physical resurrection with the Bahai viewpoint of a spiritual one...

-----------------------------------

Actually it's very easy to do this... Heaven is nearness to God and His Will. The verses describing heaven are allegorical... What better description of heaven for a desert people is there than one having rivers, oases and fruits with youths to serve you.. These are meant to express that Heaven is desirable. People think in concrete terms and so images of heaven having golden streets and trees that produce year round and no darkness are symbols of a spiritual condition.

The resurrection is also a spiritual one..of what possible use would there be if by some means your physical body could be brought back to life and your soul were still in darkness? So the spiritual condition of the soul is what is important...not your physical body after you die.

From the Persian Bayan:

what is meant by the Day of Resurrection is this, that from the time of the appearance of Him Who is the Tree of divine Reality, at whatever period and under whatever name, until the moment of His disappearance, is the Day of Resurrection.
For example, from the inception of the mission of Jesus --may peace be upon Him--till the day of His ascension was the Resurrection of Moses. For during that period the Revelation of God shone forth through the appearance of that divine Reality, Who rewarded by His Word everyone who believed in Moses, and punished by His Word everyone who did not believe; inasmuch as God's Testimony for that Day was that which He had solemnly affirmed in the Gospel. And from the inception of the Revelation of the Apostle of God--may the blessings of God be upon Him-- till the day of His ascension was the Resurrection of Jesus-- peace be upon Him--wherein the Tree of divine Reality appeared in the person of Muhammad, rewarding by His Word everyone who was a believer in Jesus, and punishing by His Word everyone who was not a believer in Him. And from the moment when the Tree of the Bayán appeared until it disappeareth is the Resurrection of the Apostle of God, as is divinely foretold in the Qur'án; the beginning of which was when two hours and eleven minutes had passed on the eve of the fifth of Jamádiyu'l-Avval, 1260 A.H.,[22 May 1844] which is the year 1270 of the Declaration of the Mission of Muhammad. This was the beginning of the Day of Resurrection of the Qur'án, and until the disappearance of the Tree of divine Reality is the Resurrection of the Qur'án.
 
arthra said:
The question was that how can one reconcile the Muslim viewpoint of a physical resurrection with the Bahai viewpoint of a spiritual one...

-----------------------------------

Actually it's very easy to do this... Heaven is nearness to God and His Will. The verses describing heaven are allegorical... What better description of heaven for a desert people is there than one having rivers, oases and fruits with youths to serve you.. These are meant to express that Heaven is desirable. People think in concrete terms and so images of heaven having golden streets and trees that produce year round and no darkness are symbols of a spiritual condition.

The resurrection is also a spiritual one..of what possible use would there be if by some means your physical body could be brought back to life and your soul were still in darkness? So the spiritual condition of the soul is what is important...not your physical body after you die.

From the Persian Bayan:

what is meant by the Day of Resurrection is this, that from the time of the appearance of Him Who is the Tree of divine Reality, at whatever period and under whatever name, until the moment of His disappearance, is the Day of Resurrection.
For example, from the inception of the mission of Jesus --may peace be upon Him--till the day of His ascension was the Resurrection of Moses. For during that period the Revelation of God shone forth through the appearance of that divine Reality, Who rewarded by His Word everyone who believed in Moses, and punished by His Word everyone who did not believe; inasmuch as God's Testimony for that Day was that which He had solemnly affirmed in the Gospel. And from the inception of the Revelation of the Apostle of God--may the blessings of God be upon Him-- till the day of His ascension was the Resurrection of Jesus-- peace be upon Him--wherein the Tree of divine Reality appeared in the person of Muhammad, rewarding by His Word everyone who was a believer in Jesus, and punishing by His Word everyone who was not a believer in Him. And from the moment when the Tree of the Bayán appeared until it disappeareth is the Resurrection of the Apostle of God, as is divinely foretold in the Qur'án; the beginning of which was when two hours and eleven minutes had passed on the eve of the fifth of Jamádiyu'l-Avval, 1260 A.H.,[22 May 1844] which is the year 1270 of the Declaration of the Mission of Muhammad. This was the beginning of the Day of Resurrection of the Qur'án, and until the disappearance of the Tree of divine Reality is the Resurrection of the Qur'án.
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You are telling what I already know. You forget that I have read Bahai books too. I am glad you have clarified it here on the forum so that ordinary Muslims like myself know that:

1. There is no corelation between the Islamic viewpoint of the Day of Judgement and the Bahai concept of the same. Islam talks about a physical afterlife in which the body and the soul are integral parts. The Bahais discount the body completely. This view is opposite to that of the Quran.

2. Islam believes in an everlasting afterlife which depending on one's action - each and very action - from the major to the minor - including intentions, I will be questioned and then taken to Heaven and Hell which are physical. Someone in the post mentioned that the Houri is the Handmaiden of God. Well, if that is the case then she will be extremely busy on th Day of Judgement because our Prophet told us that every person in Heaven will get a Houri and if there is only one, then either the Prophet was fooling us or Bahaullah is.

Take the example of music - the prophet told us that it is forbidden, that the angels of mercy would not enter the house of the person who layed music and that if one did hear music, then on the Day of Judgement, hot lava will be made to pour into his ears. Try interpreting that spiritually if you can. Like I said, I dont listen to music and you probably do. So the views between Hazrat Mohammed and Bahaullah are tangential.

3. In the Day of Judgement of Islam, the reward for each and every action is specified. And the punishment for each and every action is specified. very clearly. Very minutely. One that makes us fear Allah. One that makes us aspire for Heaven. The Day of Judgement of the Bahais is fairly superficial - close or far from Allah.

Regards,
 
BruceDLimber said:
Greetings!

very simple:

By understanding that in times past when people were less sophisticated and knowledge less general, concepts were often explained in simpler terms than can be used today.

This is in no way a put-down of earlier civilizations and cultures, just a recognition of the fact that these things grow and evolve over time, as do concepts.

No different from telling a two-year-old "don't enter the street!" and a five-year-old "look both ways before crossing."

Peace,

Bruce
Click to expand...


Not really as simple as you make it out to be.

It is no coincidence that that the concept of the Day of Judgement is so ingrained in Islam and in the Muslim psyche. The teachings of the prophet are very detailed when it comes to the day of judgement. They are not superficial at all.

Regards,
 
Imran,

I am having trouble understanding your motivation. It seems that you are concerned more with the rewards of afterlife than you are with being a servant of God. If the reason you submit to God is simply because in return you get a comfortable and pleasant afterlife it seems to me you are making bargains with God. Those who bargain together, after all are partners in the bargain and therefore you are making yourself a partner with God.

The Bab states this clearly:
"WORSHIP thou God in such wise that if thy worship lead thee to the fire, no alteration in thine adoration would be produced, and so likewise if thy recompense should be paradise. Thus and thus alone should be the worship which befitteth the one True God. Shouldst thou worship Him because of fear, this would be unseemly in the sanctified Court of His presence, and could not be regarded as an act by thee dedicated to the Oneness of His Being. Or if thy gaze should be on paradise, and thou shouldst worship Him while cherishing such a hope, thou wouldst make God's creation a partner with Him, notwithstanding the fact that paradise is desired by men.
Fire and paradise both bow down and prostrate themselves before God. That which is worthy of His Essence is to worship Him for His sake, without fear of fire, or hope of paradise.
Although when true worship is offered, the worshipper is delivered from the fire, and entereth the paradise of God's good-pleasure, yet such should not be the motive of his act. However, God's favour and grace ever flow in accordance with the exigencies of His inscrutable wisdom."
(The Bab, Selections from the Writings of the Bab, p. 77)

Regards,
Scott
 
"We have heard these melodies in Paradise;
Though earth and water have cast their veil upon us,
We retain faint reminiscences of those heavenly songs.
But while we are thus shrouded by gross earthly veils,
How can the tones of the dancing spheres reach us?
Hence it is that listening to music is lovers' food,
Because it recalls to them their primal union with God."
(Mathnavi of Rumi (E.H. Whinfield tr), The Masnavi Vol 4)

Regards,
Scott
 
BruceDLimber said:
Hello!



I would be most interested in seeing where in the Qur'an this is!

NOT the Hadith: the Qur'an.

(And if you can't produce such a statement, please feel free to retract the statement.)

Peace,

Bruce
Click to expand...

Bruce,

I put the word "music" in the search function for Ocean and the Quran. There was not one entry recorded. I too am curious where one would find it in the Quran.

Mick
 
Imran if you have read Baha'i books then you already know what we know...

We're not really here on this forum to convert you that we would leave to the Almighty...

When we are asked about Heaven and Hell we're also very much aware that there are Muslims such as yourself and Christians that believe in a very physical and literal after-life.

When we read the Bible or Qur'an we take the spiritual interpretation rather than the literalist one. And you already should know that!

- Art
 
The Baha'i view on music...

I'm sure there's probably a Hadith or two that supports not using Musical instruments..but really that's not what this Forum should be about in my opinion..

Yes some Muslims regard Music with disdain...

The Baha'i view on music was articulated well by Abdul-Baha:

O bird that singeth sweetly of the Abhá Beauty! In this new and wondrous dispensation the veils of superstition have been torn asunder and the prejudices of eastern peoples stand condemned. Among certain nations of the East, music was considered reprehensible, but in this new age the Manifest Light hath, in His holy Tablets, specifically proclaimed that music, sung or played, is spiritual food for soul and heart.
The musician's art is among those arts worthy of the highest praise, and it moveth the hearts of all who grieve. Wherefore, O thou Shahnáz,1 play and sing out the holy words of God with wondrous tones in the gatherings of the friends, that the listener may be freed from chains of care and sorrow, and his soul may leap for joy and humble itself in prayer to the realm of Glory.

There's a Muslim forum here Imran at CR and a Comparative Religion forum for this.

- Art
 
We have made it lawful for you to listen to music
and singing. Take heed, however, lest listening thereto
should cause you to overstep the bounds of propriety
and dignity. Let your joy be the joy born of My Most
Great Name, a Name that bringeth rapture to the
heart, and filleth with ecstasy the minds of all who have
drawn nigh unto God.

We, verily, have made music
as a ladder for your souls, a means whereby they may
be lifted up unto the realm on high; make it not,
therefore, as wings to self and passion. Truly, We are
loath to see you numbered with the foolish.

(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 38)
 
arthra said:
We have made it lawful for you to listen to music
and singing. Take heed, however, lest listening thereto
should cause you to overstep the bounds of propriety
and dignity. Let your joy be the joy born of My Most
Great Name, a Name that bringeth rapture to the
heart, and filleth with ecstasy the minds of all who have
drawn nigh unto God.

We, verily, have made music
as a ladder for your souls, a means whereby they may
be lifted up unto the realm on high; make it not,
therefore, as wings to self and passion. Truly, We are
loath to see you numbered with the foolish.

(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 38)
Click to expand...


Hi Art,

Just have to say that I think your new avatar is really nice!
 
Mick said:
Bruce,

I put the word "music" in the search function for Ocean and the Quran. There was not one entry recorded. I too am curious where one would find it in the Quran.

Mick
Click to expand...

So am I!

And I suspect that yet again, my question challenging Imran's claim that Muhammad forbade music and asking for a citation in the Qur'an is going to be met with deafening silence. . . . :-(

The quote above are just a few, BTW, of a whole bunch in the Baha'i scriptures which 'Abdu'l-Baha spoke about music!

Best, :)

Bruce
 
BruceDLimber said:
So am I!

And I suspect that yet again, my question challenging Imran's claim that Muhammad forbade music and asking for a citation in the Qur'an is going to be met with deafening silence. . . . :-(

The quote above are just a few, BTW, of a whole bunch in the Baha'i scriptures which 'Abdu'l-Baha spoke about music!

Best, :)

Bruce
Click to expand...

Not quite. Not a single question from the Bahais has been met with anything remotely close to deafening silence. You see unlike the Bahais who summarily dismiss information put up to them, I take my time to do my homework and then give a reply!

So here goes....

Imam Saqid (as) says: Allah has prohibited the manufacture of all such things that are exclusively used in Haraam ways; and things that only create evil like pipe, flute, chess and all types of instruments of gmabling, images, statues. The manufacture of all such articles is Haraam (forbidden). The Imam continued, Then even learning to play music and teaching it, to sing and play music, to be pai for these things or to be engrossed in these vices is haraam.

Imam Sadiq (as) reports from the Holy Prophet (pbuh): I prohibit for you dancing and paying flute, drums and tabla.
(Al Kafi)

The Holy Prophet (pbuh) also said, Almighty Allah has sent me as a mercy to the worlds to guide the people. And he ordered me to eradicate the playing of flute and other musical instruments, all games of vice, idol worship and all practices of the days of ignorance
(Mustadrakul Wasael, chapter 79)

Imam Sadiq (as) while expressing the prohibition for music quotes the following verse: "Surely the hearing and the sight and the heart, all of these shall be questioned about that?"
(Chapter of Bani Israel, verse 36)

Imam Ali Reza (as) says, To listed to a musical instrument is one of the greater sins
(Mustadrakul Wasael)

Angels do not enter the house that has wine, drum, tambourine and flute. Even the prayers of this ouse are unacceptable. They are depreived of the barakat.
(Wasaelush Shiah)

The Holy Prophet (pbuh) said, "A person who posesses a sitar, on the Day of Qiyamat will be raised with a black face. His hands will be holding a sitar of fire. 70,000 angels with maces of fire will be hitting him on the face and the head. The singer will rise from his grave, blind, deaf and dumb. The adulterer will be similarlt raised. The player of flute will also be made to rise in this way as will be the drum player."
(Mustadrakul Wasael)

Imam Baqir (as) says, "Singing is that sin which has been promised the penalty of fire of Hell by Allah." The Imam quoted the above tradition under the following verse of Quran, "And of men is he who takes instead frivolous discourse to lead astray from Allah's path without knowledgee and to take it for a mockery; these shall have an abasing chastisement."
(Chapter of Luqman, verse 6)

Imam Saidq (as) while quoting the following verse, "...and avoid false words" (Chapter of Hajj, verse 30) says - this verse refers to singing.

At another place, "And keep aloof from what is vain" (Chapter of Mo'menoon, verse 3), both Imam Sadiq (as) and Imam Reza (as) have said, vain words imply music and singing and the true worshippers of Allah refrain from these .
(Al Kafi)

The Holy Prophet (pbuh) said, Molten lead shall be poured into the ears of one who listens to music intently.

These are but a few verses and traditions which emphasise the prophibition of music in Islam. They also go to highlight a couple of other important points:

1. Music is prohibited in Islam, yet the Bahais who claim that their religion is from the same Allah as that of Mohammed assert that music is permissible. This is one amongst many differences in the beliefs of the Muslims and the Bahais. Why would Allah prohibit something on one community and condemn it so harshly and then open the floodgates, permit it and also encourage it? Music is one such element.

2. The above verses and traditions emphasise how important it is to rely upon the words of the Holy Prophet (pbuh) and the Imams (as) to understand the Quran.

3. The traditions above assert the physical Day of Judgement - fire, molten lead, blacked face, angels hitting the singer with a mace - these are physical in nature.

I responded to this post because I thought it is important to clarify the Islamic position on music. I have however noticed that the Bahais have a tendency to pick up one element which is not related to the main issue (that of the Bab, his books, the tradition of Imam Ali etc) and start off on a topic which is incidental to the discussion (iran, music, tap dancing etc). This post itself is a product of that and I apologise for indulging your request for verses and traditions on music.

Let us revert back to the Bab. Let us focus on understanding how the Bab was the promised Mahdi of Islam. I seem to be the recipient of deafening slience on this issue :)

Regards
Imran
 
BruceDLimber said:
So am I!

And I suspect that yet again, my question challenging Imran's claim that Muhammad forbade music and asking for a citation in the Qur'an is going to be met with deafening silence. . . . :-(

The quote above are just a few, BTW, of a whole bunch in the Baha'i scriptures which 'Abdu'l-Baha spoke about music!

Best, :)

Bruce
Click to expand...

Not quite. Not a single question from the Bahais has been met with anything remotely close to deafening silence. You see unlike the Bahais who summarily dismiss information put up to them, I take my time to do my homework and then give a reply!

So here goes....

Imam Saqid (as) says: Allah has prohibited the manufacture of all such things that are exclusively used in Haraam ways; and things that only create evil like pipe, flute, chess and all types of instruments of gmabling, images, statues. The manufacture of all such articles is Haraam (forbidden). The Imam continued, Then even learning to play music and teaching it, to sing and play music, to be pai for these things or to be engrossed in these vices is haraam.

Imam Sadiq (as) reports from the Holy Prophet (pbuh): I prohibit for you dancing and paying flute, drums and tabla.
(Al Kafi)

The Holy Prophet (pbuh) also said, Almighty Allah has sent me as a mercy to the worlds to guide the people. And he ordered me to eradicate the playing of flute and other musical instruments, all games of vice, idol worship and all practices of the days of ignorance
(Mustadrakul Wasael, chapter 79)

Imam Sadiq (as) while expressing the prohibition for music quotes the following verse: "Surely the hearing and the sight and the heart, all of these shall be questioned about that?"
(Chapter of Bani Israel, verse 36)

Imam Ali Reza (as) says, To listed to a musical instrument is one of the greater sins
(Mustadrakul Wasael)

Angels do not enter the house that has wine, drum, tambourine and flute. Even the prayers of this ouse are unacceptable. They are depreived of the barakat.
(Wasaelush Shiah)

The Holy Prophet (pbuh) said, "A person who posesses a sitar, on the Day of Qiyamat will be raised with a black face. His hands will be holding a sitar of fire. 70,000 angels with maces of fire will be hitting him on the face and the head. The singer will rise from his grave, blind, deaf and dumb. The adulterer will be similarlt raised. The player of flute will also be made to rise in this way as will be the drum player."
(Mustadrakul Wasael)

Imam Baqir (as) says, "Singing is that sin which has been promised the penalty of fire of Hell by Allah." The Imam quoted the above tradition under the following verse of Quran, "And of men is he who takes instead frivolous discourse to lead astray from Allah's path without knowledgee and to take it for a mockery; these shall have an abasing chastisement."
(Chapter of Luqman, verse 6)

Imam Saidq (as) while quoting the following verse, "...and avoid false words" (Chapter of Hajj, verse 30) says - this verse refers to singing.

At another place, "And keep aloof from what is vain" (Chapter of Mo'menoon, verse 3), both Imam Sadiq (as) and Imam Reza (as) have said, vain words imply music and singing and the true worshippers of Allah refrain from these .
(Al Kafi)

The Holy Prophet (pbuh) said, Molten lead shall be poured into the ears of one who listens to music intently.

These are but a few verses and traditions which emphasise the prophibition of music in Islam. They also go to highlight a couple of other important points:

1. Music is prohibited in Islam, yet the Bahais who claim that their religion is from the same Allah as that of Mohammed assert that music is permissible. This is one amongst many differences in the beliefs of the Muslims and the Bahais. Why would Allah prohibit something on one community and condemn it so harshly and then open the floodgates, permit it and also encourage it? Music is one such element.

2. The above verses and traditions emphasise how important it is to rely upon the words of the Holy Prophet (pbuh) and the Imams (as) to understand the Quran.

3. The traditions above assert the physical Day of Judgement - fire, molten lead, blacked face, angels hitting the singer with a mace - these are physical in nature.

I responded to this post because I thought it is important to clarify the Islamic position on music. I have however noticed that the Bahais have a tendency to pick up one element which is not related to the main issue (that of the Bab, his books, the tradition of Imam Ali etc) and start off on a topic which is incidental to the discussion (iran, music, tap dancing etc). This post itself is a product of that and I apologise for indulging your request for verses and traditions on music.

Let us revert back to the Bab. Let us focus on understanding how the Bab was the promised Mahdi of Islam. I seem to be the recipient of deafening slience on this issue :)

Regards
Imran
 
We have made it lawful for you to listen to musicand singing. Take heed, however, lest listening theretoshould cause you to overstep the bounds of proprietyand dignity. Let your joy be the joy born of My MostGreat Name, a Name that bringeth rapture to theheart, and filleth with ecstasy the minds of all who havedrawn nigh unto God. We, verily, have made musicas a ladder for your souls, a means whereby they maybe lifted up unto the realm on high; make it not,therefore, as wings to self and passion. Truly, We areloath to see you numbered with the foolish.(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 38)Which states a new law for a new Revelation. Baha`u'llah also made most substances 'clean' rather than 'unclean'. He changed the dietary laws again as was His right as an Apostle of God.The Bab wrote that if He WHom God Will Make Manifest should as a suckling bab indicate displeasure with the Bayan, it's Revealer or its followers it was within His right.It was within the right of Muhammad to change the social laws of Moses and the Injeel. It is within the rights of Baha`u'llah to change the social laws of Muhammad.That's what YOU don't understand.Music is no longer Haram under any circumstances UNLESS the listener makes it personally haram should he "overstep the bounds of proprietyand dignity."The Qur'an Itself says nothing about music being unlawful, as Bruce noted. All the rest is the invention of superstition by those who sought to lead the faith after Muhammad's passing.Regards,Scott
 
Popeyesays said:
We have made it lawful for you to listen to musicand singing. Take heed, however, lest listening theretoshould cause you to overstep the bounds of proprietyand dignity. Let your joy be the joy born of My MostGreat Name, a Name that bringeth rapture to theheart, and filleth with ecstasy the minds of all who havedrawn nigh unto God. We, verily, have made musicas a ladder for your souls, a means whereby they maybe lifted up unto the realm on high; make it not,therefore, as wings to self and passion. Truly, We areloath to see you numbered with the foolish.(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 38)Which states a new law for a new Revelation. Baha`u'llah also made most substances 'clean' rather than 'unclean'. He changed the dietary laws again as was His right as an Apostle of God.The Bab wrote that if He WHom God Will Make Manifest should as a suckling bab indicate displeasure with the Bayan, it's Revealer or its followers it was within His right.It was within the right of Muhammad to change the social laws of Moses and the Injeel. It is within the rights of Baha`u'llah to change the social laws of Muhammad.That's what YOU don't understand.Music is no longer Haram under any circumstances UNLESS the listener makes it personally haram should he "overstep the bounds of proprietyand dignity."The Qur'an Itself says nothing about music being unlawful, as Bruce noted. All the rest is the invention of superstition by those who sought to lead the faith after Muhammad's passing.Regards,Scott
Click to expand...

Read my earlier post again - At the outset, I had mentioned that the Bahais summarily dismiss information put to them. You have just reinforced my belief for that. I spent two days for research and it took you two minutes to dismiss it. By rejecting the traditions, you have shown how the Bahais believe that the Prophet lied, the Imams lied, that they encouraged superstition. I am happy to change my opinion provided you put forth some proof that the traditions I have quoted are false before dismissing them.

Sure, the prophets changed laws, but I am yet to see any law, I repeat any law, which was so condemned at some time, but was so encouraged in the next. Also, who is the one who will define the "bounds of propriety and dignity" - you?

I thank you for your "2-minute dismissal" of my research and the verses and the traditions. It is a great response for those who wish to understand the Bahai concept of independent investigation of truth. Seriously.

Finally, I end with the following verses of the Quran,

"Surely those who disbelieve, it being alike whether you warn them or do not warn them, they will not believe. Allah has set a seal upon their hearts and upon their hearing and there is a covering over their eyes and there is a great punishment for them.

And there are some people who say, We believe in Allah and the last day and they are not at all believers. They desire to deceive Allah and those who believe, and they deceive only themselves and they do not percieve.

There is a disease in their hearts, so Allah added to their disease and they shall have a painful chastisement because they lied.

And when it is said to them, Do not make mischief in the land, they say, We are but peace makers. Now surely they themselves are the mischief makers, but they do not perceive.

And when it is said to them, Believe as the people believe, they say, Shall we believe as the fools believe? Now surely they themselves are the fools, but they do not know.
(Chapter of Baqarah, The Cow, verse 6-13)

Warm regards,
Imran
 
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