bupanishad2007
Andrew
Re: How do the Christians explain this away?
Tell me even ONE place where God is called a "Trinity" or "Triune" in any Bible!
Tell me even ONE place where God is called a "Trinity" or "Triune" in any Bible!
BlaznFattyz
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during this scenario of the father being greater than jesus, the invisible father is still in heaven with his heavenly glory intact, jesus descended from his heavenly glory with the father and emptied himself by taking on the flesh of man as a servant, under the law, to do the will of god, and to die for our sins. although jesus is fully man, he is fully god, therefore when he refers himself to i am he, it is yahweh, the glorious name he shares with god the father, as they are one.
bupanishad2007
Andrew
Tell me even ONE place where God is called a "Trinity" or "Triune" in any Bible!
BlaznFattyz
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trinity is the word used to describe how god has revealed himself and his salvation of man. you can read the entire bible from beginning where the word of god created everything and the spirit of god was upon the waters, until the time of christ who was sent from god, and who sent the spirit. rest assured, there is no salvation from god without the father, the son, and the holy ghost working together.
All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit [Matthew 28:19].
May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all [2 Corinthians 13:14].
To God’s elect. . .who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood [1 Peter 1:1-2].
some more readings:
Romans 14:17-18; 15:16; 1 Corinthians 2:2-5; 6:11; 12:4-6; 2 Corinthians 1:21-22; Galatians 4:6; Ephesians 2:18-22; 3:14-19; Ephesians 4:4-6; Colossians 1:6-8; 1Thessalonians 1:3-5; 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14; Titus 3:4-6.
All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit [Matthew 28:19].
May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all [2 Corinthians 13:14].
To God’s elect. . .who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood [1 Peter 1:1-2].
some more readings:
Romans 14:17-18; 15:16; 1 Corinthians 2:2-5; 6:11; 12:4-6; 2 Corinthians 1:21-22; Galatians 4:6; Ephesians 2:18-22; 3:14-19; Ephesians 4:4-6; Colossians 1:6-8; 1Thessalonians 1:3-5; 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14; Titus 3:4-6.
bupanishad2007
Andrew
I asked a straight, reasonable question, and did not ask for "proof-texting" which is what I got. Anyone out there: Tell me even ONE place where God is called a "Trinity" or "Triune" in any Bible!
BlaznFattyz
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to be honest with you that is a rather elementary and canned question, because you probably already know it is not in there, yet care more to validate it, perhaps feed a preconceived notion, than to understand truth.
in the bible, as well as many religious books, we see that god is present everywhere, yet omnipresent is not a word in the bible. we also see that god is almighty, yet the word omnipotent is not in the bible. because you want to find an exact word and not find it, your argumentative stubborness causes you to lose the concept which is plain to see. sometimes using one word helps to sum things up, that is the beauty of language and reasoning.
S
Silas
Guest
Re: How do the Christians explain this away?
I believe it was the theologian Tratriallan (spelled his name wrong Im sure!) who coined the term "Trinity." Dont get tripped up on the word, its only a word used to describe what the Bible teaches of the Godhead. Much like the words, "demon", "rapture," Bible" etc., which arent in the bible either.
You dig?
I believe it was the theologian Tratriallan (spelled his name wrong Im sure!) who coined the term "Trinity." Dont get tripped up on the word, its only a word used to describe what the Bible teaches of the Godhead. Much like the words, "demon", "rapture," Bible" etc., which arent in the bible either.
You dig?
path_of_one
Embracing the Mystery
Wow, did this thread ever get off the topic of it's original question. 
Oh, and FS- I see it all was resolved with Wil, but I was merely stating why he probably said that in case there was confusion. I use "He" myself for this forum, since there was a split between here and liberal Christianity, and I try to be as respectful of the mainstream traditions as I can (whilst still discussing things from my beliefs).
Oh, and FS- I see it all was resolved with Wil, but I was merely stating why he probably said that in case there was confusion. I use "He" myself for this forum, since there was a split between here and liberal Christianity, and I try to be as respectful of the mainstream traditions as I can (whilst still discussing things from my beliefs).
S
Silas
Guest
bupanishad2007
Andrew
Re: How do the Christians explain this away?
Tertullian is the correct spelling.
If " . . . the Word was God" has any meaning at all, it means that words have meaning. Yes, I am stuck on words. I am stuck on the Word (Logos). You guys (I assume you are guys) use too many words to prove simple concepts. I've already admitted (above) that the Bible taken as a whole must teach something like a "trinity" for God to make any sense, but I also feel that the "Church Fathers" (for instance, Tertullian, Augustine, etc.) and Christian "Tradition" count as well for doctrine. Then there's the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Nag Hammadi Codices, the Apocrypha, etc., etc. . . .
Tertullian is the correct spelling.
If " . . . the Word was God" has any meaning at all, it means that words have meaning. Yes, I am stuck on words. I am stuck on the Word (Logos). You guys (I assume you are guys) use too many words to prove simple concepts. I've already admitted (above) that the Bible taken as a whole must teach something like a "trinity" for God to make any sense, but I also feel that the "Church Fathers" (for instance, Tertullian, Augustine, etc.) and Christian "Tradition" count as well for doctrine. Then there's the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Nag Hammadi Codices, the Apocrypha, etc., etc. . . .
S
Silas
Guest
Re: How do the Christians explain this away?
Get out of here, I spelled it correctly!? This is cause for celebration. Wait till I tell people who know me...whoa! Anyway, what was your point of the Gnostic texts, and dead sea scrolls?
Get out of here, I spelled it correctly!? This is cause for celebration. Wait till I tell people who know me...whoa! Anyway, what was your point of the Gnostic texts, and dead sea scrolls?
bupanishad2007
Andrew
Re: How do the Christians explain this away?
Sorry to say, No, you did NOT spell it right. Check my spelling with your's. Better yet, look it up in a good dictionary. We'll get to the other stuff later, I'm sure.
S
Silas
Guest
Ah man, I really thought I had it right. I so suck in spelling!
Saltmeister
The Dangerous Dinner
Re: How do the Christians explain this away?
The "Trinity" is the expression of the Christian concept of God, or at least an expression of a Christian's experience of God. Although there are explanations of the meaning of "God," the New Testament doesn't define, in totality or entirety, what constitutes God. The Trinity, I believe, was never meant to define God, to give structure to God, to compartmentalise or technicalise God, but simply to explain how a Christian may experience God.
As far as the Trinity and God are concerned, the New Testament never says "God is three." It only ever goes as far as using the terminology of the Trinity, as you will find in Matthew 28:19. It's up to each of us to speculate on what this is supposed to mean. To me, terminology always has a purpose. However, that says nothing about the numerical complexity of God.
I am not sure why "threeness of the Trinity" necessarily implies "threeness of God." If the New Testament is an expression of the Christian faith, then use of terms like Father, Son and Holy Spirit are themselves expressions of meaning. I am puzzled as to why so many of us insist on associating a number with God. A Christian experiences God through the Father, Son and Holy Spirit but that does not mean that God is three. Does one not think that use of the terms, Father, Son and Holy Spirit might simply mean that God's identity is found in the concepts behind these three names?
I guess it's a tradition. Insisting that God is three is much like a defensive measure where we are afraid that Christianity's true meaning might be lost if the "threeness of the Trinity" is not imposed on God. But for those of us who understand why this tradition is enforced, we may safely say there is no difference whether or not the Trinity concept is imposed on God.
Consider this: Paul, Peter and John did warn us against false teachings, but they never said anything about the Trinity. They warned us against religious teachers with dark secrets, having illegitimate sex behind people's backs, secret money mongers, or people that just have nothing else to do but slander people, making fun of people of other religions and hell-fire and brimstone preaching. One must be wondering, what about the Trinity?
Preserving the Trinity is not something Paul, Peter and John told us to do, but something we personally decide to do of our own volition. John doesn't go any further than saying we must preserve the concept of the Son.
Yes, bupanishad2007. Words do carry meaning. But sometimes we're just wrong about their true meaning. The early Christians have been dead for 1900 years. We have no idea what they believed. We can only guess and speculate. That calls for a need for reason and not just blind faith. I guess some of us are content with just having faith, while the rest of us want to reason about our spiritual journey. Neither is better than the other, the need to believe without reason and the pursuit of more experiences to inspire one's soul is a calling of God.
But, before those who believe in "faith without reason" get the wrong impression of me, I would like to say that it's because we have no idea what Christianity really meant to the early Christians. That's why we have to think, and not judge people who think differently, or approach Christianity differently. Everyone in Christianity is trying hard to figure out what Christianity meant to those in the distant past. Reasoning is not dangerous and is not a tool of Satan. Instead, the ability to reason is functionality given to us by God. It's only detrimental to our relationship with God when it is used incorrectly.
I do believe that Christ's kingdom has been preserved in some way, just not by any established authorities, churches or organisations -- not the most obvious way. Only those of us who seek to find and understand will find the real secrets of Christianity. Most importantly, I don't think one can appreciate Christianity without a process of self-discovery. It may be that the answer for this issue with the Trinity can only be found by looking within yourself.
bupanishad2007 said:
The "Trinity" is the expression of the Christian concept of God, or at least an expression of a Christian's experience of God. Although there are explanations of the meaning of "God," the New Testament doesn't define, in totality or entirety, what constitutes God. The Trinity, I believe, was never meant to define God, to give structure to God, to compartmentalise or technicalise God, but simply to explain how a Christian may experience God.
As far as the Trinity and God are concerned, the New Testament never says "God is three." It only ever goes as far as using the terminology of the Trinity, as you will find in Matthew 28:19. It's up to each of us to speculate on what this is supposed to mean. To me, terminology always has a purpose. However, that says nothing about the numerical complexity of God.
I am not sure why "threeness of the Trinity" necessarily implies "threeness of God." If the New Testament is an expression of the Christian faith, then use of terms like Father, Son and Holy Spirit are themselves expressions of meaning. I am puzzled as to why so many of us insist on associating a number with God. A Christian experiences God through the Father, Son and Holy Spirit but that does not mean that God is three. Does one not think that use of the terms, Father, Son and Holy Spirit might simply mean that God's identity is found in the concepts behind these three names?
I guess it's a tradition. Insisting that God is three is much like a defensive measure where we are afraid that Christianity's true meaning might be lost if the "threeness of the Trinity" is not imposed on God. But for those of us who understand why this tradition is enforced, we may safely say there is no difference whether or not the Trinity concept is imposed on God.
Consider this: Paul, Peter and John did warn us against false teachings, but they never said anything about the Trinity. They warned us against religious teachers with dark secrets, having illegitimate sex behind people's backs, secret money mongers, or people that just have nothing else to do but slander people, making fun of people of other religions and hell-fire and brimstone preaching. One must be wondering, what about the Trinity?
Preserving the Trinity is not something Paul, Peter and John told us to do, but something we personally decide to do of our own volition. John doesn't go any further than saying we must preserve the concept of the Son.
Yes, bupanishad2007. Words do carry meaning. But sometimes we're just wrong about their true meaning. The early Christians have been dead for 1900 years. We have no idea what they believed. We can only guess and speculate. That calls for a need for reason and not just blind faith. I guess some of us are content with just having faith, while the rest of us want to reason about our spiritual journey. Neither is better than the other, the need to believe without reason and the pursuit of more experiences to inspire one's soul is a calling of God.
But, before those who believe in "faith without reason" get the wrong impression of me, I would like to say that it's because we have no idea what Christianity really meant to the early Christians. That's why we have to think, and not judge people who think differently, or approach Christianity differently. Everyone in Christianity is trying hard to figure out what Christianity meant to those in the distant past. Reasoning is not dangerous and is not a tool of Satan. Instead, the ability to reason is functionality given to us by God. It's only detrimental to our relationship with God when it is used incorrectly.
I do believe that Christ's kingdom has been preserved in some way, just not by any established authorities, churches or organisations -- not the most obvious way. Only those of us who seek to find and understand will find the real secrets of Christianity. Most importantly, I don't think one can appreciate Christianity without a process of self-discovery. It may be that the answer for this issue with the Trinity can only be found by looking within yourself.
JosephM
Well-Known Member
Re: How do the Christians explain this away?
I must admit, I thought your complete post was one of the best posts I have ever seen written on the trinity. Thank you. It spreads peace instead of discord. The only comment I have to the contrary is on this one sentence in the above paragraph. You say "Everyone in Christianity is trying hard to figure out what Christianity meant to those in the distant past". Of course you do not speak for everyone in Christianity..... It seems to me that it is best to leave the distant past and focus on Christ in you now. Just a consideration.
Love in Christ,
JM
Saltmeister,
I must admit, I thought your complete post was one of the best posts I have ever seen written on the trinity. Thank you. It spreads peace instead of discord. The only comment I have to the contrary is on this one sentence in the above paragraph. You say "Everyone in Christianity is trying hard to figure out what Christianity meant to those in the distant past". Of course you do not speak for everyone in Christianity..... It seems to me that it is best to leave the distant past and focus on Christ in you now. Just a consideration.
Love in Christ,
JM
Faithfulservant
Well-Known Member
Re: How do the Christians explain this away?
lol considering the bible wasnt written in english and everything in it is translated.. there are a lot of words we use that arent "in" the bible but can be traced back...
My favorite is "the godhead boldily" or... the father the son the spirit agree as one
I dont have time to get into this because I have to go to church but there was something to chew on.
lol considering the bible wasnt written in english and everything in it is translated.. there are a lot of words we use that arent "in" the bible but can be traced back...
My favorite is "the godhead boldily" or... the father the son the spirit agree as one
I dont have time to get into this because I have to go to church but there was something to chew on.
Re: How do the Christians explain this away?
I loved this little snippet of wisdom, the following verses come to mind;
I loved this little snippet of wisdom, the following verses come to mind;
The Book of 1 John Chapter 4 said:
While I realize that is the definition being used here, and the colloquial definition that has become most common. I can't find a national reputable dictionary to support that claim. Search as we might on the web, when we look at the dictionary on our shelves, that we use as students and/or adults...we are not using the word properly. Further here, Silas is refering to not the largest religous group, but all the small religous groups that make up this large one...and cult refers to all the Christian groups that don't believe as he. In this case it does not refer to any non-christian cults. Quite a specific definition, hence my consternation with such usage.