China Cat Sunflower
Nimrod
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I don't see anything nasty going on Dondi. As a matter of fact, this is precisely the kind of debate I've been itching to see. I'm enjoying it immensely!
Chris
I don't see anything nasty going on Dondi. As a matter of fact, this is precisely the kind of debate I've been itching to see. I'm enjoying it immensely!
Chris
S
Silas
Guest
That is the understanding of your group of Christians, which you are, naturally, trying to push. However Christianity is more than just what you believe it to be.
Let the Bible say what a Christian should be, not what you think.
This is a warning. Do not attempt this one more time outside of the Christianity board or I will report every attempt you've made directly to Brian. This is not a forum for you to seek converts, and it is not welcome here.
Think of Moses and His the Ten Commandments God gave to Him and to His people. Like everyone else, you've broken those laws - you're guilty - you need a Savior. Do not try to reach up to God on your own good deeds, you dont have enough. Come to God the way He has provided for you: The Passover lamb, Yeshu'a HaMashiach.
As I said before, read my post to Faith. If you wish to ask about the beliefs I stated there directly, fine. But do not belch up quotes from a text I hold no belief in as an attempt to sway me. The only thing that gives a sacred text authority is one's faith in it, and I'd rather be condemned to your hell than hold a belief that condemns all others to hell. Nevermind I'm quite happy with my own relationship with God.
I believe you! Sorry to disappoint you bro., but your no different than anyone apart from Christ. All are born sin lovers and God haters. God saves some through Christ, however.
Er, no. A translation from Isaiah 64:6 in our scriptures reads "6. And no one calls in Your name, arouses himself to cling to You, when You hid Your countenance from us, and You caused us to wander through our iniquities." You were quoting from your scriptures, whose numbering is sometimes different from ours. I will also point out that the "servant" of Isaiah is Israel and none other. If you don't believe me, read Isaiah from beginning to end, and see how many times the servant is called Israel. If you read it differently, then clearly you're not taking the literal meaning.
OK. I'll be praying for you. God can save you!!
Firstly, please don't refer to Jesus by a Hebrew name in an attempt to gain simpathy. It's extremely offensive to me. Second, our current spiritual awakening always feels superior to previous ones.
Everything seems "extremely offensive" to you. You must be a hit with all your friends, huh? Relax and smile - its really not that serious. Then again, we're talking about eternal stuff, so it is. Trust in the Messiah!
Then why do you come across as so ignorant of others' beliefs?
Dont know?
Those are your beliefs based on faith, but not on history. Even the gospels that you believe in are laced with pagan myth. Dying gods who were born again were not uncommon once upon a time.
In Gen. God gave the first prophecy of the coming Messiah. Satan was there and knew it. As a result, he has been fooling people through false prophecies and false messiah since then to now. Jesus said that all those that came before Him and after Him are liars! I believe the God-man, Jesus.
The Reformists most certainly were attempting to "get back to the roots" but making such an attempt is not equal to being successful. The problem that arises in such movements is that they develop in a different age (a) and they are also far removed from the original ideas they're trying to connect with (b.)
K. Dont write back...I'll be praying for you. Mods, can you put my thread on the Christian board, please. I didnt mean to put them here in the first place. You can earse them if you want too.
Let the Bible say what a Christian should be, not what you think.
This is a warning. Do not attempt this one more time outside of the Christianity board or I will report every attempt you've made directly to Brian. This is not a forum for you to seek converts, and it is not welcome here.
Think of Moses and His the Ten Commandments God gave to Him and to His people. Like everyone else, you've broken those laws - you're guilty - you need a Savior. Do not try to reach up to God on your own good deeds, you dont have enough. Come to God the way He has provided for you: The Passover lamb, Yeshu'a HaMashiach.
As I said before, read my post to Faith. If you wish to ask about the beliefs I stated there directly, fine. But do not belch up quotes from a text I hold no belief in as an attempt to sway me. The only thing that gives a sacred text authority is one's faith in it, and I'd rather be condemned to your hell than hold a belief that condemns all others to hell. Nevermind I'm quite happy with my own relationship with God.
I believe you! Sorry to disappoint you bro., but your no different than anyone apart from Christ. All are born sin lovers and God haters. God saves some through Christ, however.
Er, no. A translation from Isaiah 64:6 in our scriptures reads "6. And no one calls in Your name, arouses himself to cling to You, when You hid Your countenance from us, and You caused us to wander through our iniquities." You were quoting from your scriptures, whose numbering is sometimes different from ours. I will also point out that the "servant" of Isaiah is Israel and none other. If you don't believe me, read Isaiah from beginning to end, and see how many times the servant is called Israel. If you read it differently, then clearly you're not taking the literal meaning.
OK. I'll be praying for you. God can save you!!
Firstly, please don't refer to Jesus by a Hebrew name in an attempt to gain simpathy. It's extremely offensive to me. Second, our current spiritual awakening always feels superior to previous ones.
Everything seems "extremely offensive" to you. You must be a hit with all your friends, huh? Relax and smile - its really not that serious. Then again, we're talking about eternal stuff, so it is. Trust in the Messiah!
Then why do you come across as so ignorant of others' beliefs?
Dont know?
Those are your beliefs based on faith, but not on history. Even the gospels that you believe in are laced with pagan myth. Dying gods who were born again were not uncommon once upon a time.
In Gen. God gave the first prophecy of the coming Messiah. Satan was there and knew it. As a result, he has been fooling people through false prophecies and false messiah since then to now. Jesus said that all those that came before Him and after Him are liars! I believe the God-man, Jesus.
The Reformists most certainly were attempting to "get back to the roots" but making such an attempt is not equal to being successful. The problem that arises in such movements is that they develop in a different age (a) and they are also far removed from the original ideas they're trying to connect with (b.)
K. Dont write back...I'll be praying for you. Mods, can you put my thread on the Christian board, please. I didnt mean to put them here in the first place. You can earse them if you want too.
Silas,
But in this very case, you are simply asserting what you think the Bible says, and other people who define Christians differently are doing the same. It seems like you have a frequent habit of accusing me of doing things that you yourself do frequently.
Firstly, there are 613 mitzvot in Judaism, and not 10. Secondly, sin is not something that stains. Through teshuvah we can clear ourselves, as the Tanach makes clear. A few selections that emphasize this:
if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land. [2 Chronicles 7:14]
He prays to God and finds favor with him, he sees God's face and shouts for joy; he is restored by God to his righteous state. [Job 33:26]
The Eternal is close to the brokenhearted and saves those who are crushed in spirit. [Psalm 34:18]
Take words with you and return to the Eternal. Say to him: "Forgive all our sins and receive us graciously, that we may offer the bulls of our lips. [Hosea 14:2]
He who conceals his sins does not prosper, but whoever confesses and renounces them finds mercy. [Proverbs 28:13]
Through love and faithfulness sin is atoned for; through the fear of the Eternal a man avoids evil. [Proverbs 16:6]
Futher, we are each responsible for our own actions. Nobody can act to remove sin but us, as this verse make clear:
19. Yet you say, "Why does the son not bear with the sin of the father?" But the son has practiced justice and righteousness, he has kept all My laws and he carries them out; he shall surely live.
20. The soul that sins, it shall die; a son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, and a father shall not bear the iniquity of the son; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself. - Ezekiel 18:19-20
And I do not need to begin to tell you that human sacrifice is an unacceptable practice.
I'm assuming when you posted this that you didn't have the chance to read over that link to Rambam, because if you did then you would understand that Jesus cannot qualify to be the Jewish moshiach, and that the moshiach has nothing to do with removal of sin. But just to cover the bases let me here post some of the requirements of the moshiach (this brief list excerpted from a page at kosherjudaism.com, link provided below:
http://www.kosherjudaism.com/moshiach.pdf
If you follow the link you will find a fuller description, contrasted with the Christian view of the messiah. Now, as you can see, this provides a much different character than the one described in the GT.
Your blatant "chosen" mentality saddens me. It is a shame that some groups of Christianity took a Jewish concept that simply referred to its unique covenantal obligations and relationship via these to God and reinterpreted as applying to themselves to mean being in with God while all others are out, destined for heaven, while all others are destined for hell.
I see, so instead of answer directly to what I pointed out about Israel being explicitly told to be the servant or about the differences between the texts, you retreated to reasserting that your subjective reality is more true than mine.
I think you'll find that if you think about who you are speaking to before you speak to them, and resist the knee-jerk compulsion to say the first thing that comes to your mind, you'll offend much less. Do you really think that a reference to Hitler as a more acceptable messiah than Jesus wouldn't offend a Jew, or, for that matter, repeated attempts to proselytize, using statements that suggest you know better than they do about their own books?
Like all heavenly creatures, HaSatan lacks free will. If he acts in a certain way, it is because God has commanded it.
How do you know Jesus said it? Have you examined the artwork? The images of Jesus on the cross look identical to earlier images of Mithras and others. It seems much more likely that the myth of Jesus was created as a way to attract pagans, or because of the involvement of pagans early on.
I can write back if I choose to do so. If you are unable to speak to an other on equal footing, if you are uncomfortable voicing your views outside of a place where everyone will either agree with you, or disagree in small ways, you are welcome to walk away and not reply back.
Dauer
But in this very case, you are simply asserting what you think the Bible says, and other people who define Christians differently are doing the same. It seems like you have a frequent habit of accusing me of doing things that you yourself do frequently.
Firstly, there are 613 mitzvot in Judaism, and not 10. Secondly, sin is not something that stains. Through teshuvah we can clear ourselves, as the Tanach makes clear. A few selections that emphasize this:
if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land. [2 Chronicles 7:14]
He prays to God and finds favor with him, he sees God's face and shouts for joy; he is restored by God to his righteous state. [Job 33:26]
The Eternal is close to the brokenhearted and saves those who are crushed in spirit. [Psalm 34:18]
Take words with you and return to the Eternal. Say to him: "Forgive all our sins and receive us graciously, that we may offer the bulls of our lips. [Hosea 14:2]
He who conceals his sins does not prosper, but whoever confesses and renounces them finds mercy. [Proverbs 28:13]
Through love and faithfulness sin is atoned for; through the fear of the Eternal a man avoids evil. [Proverbs 16:6]
Futher, we are each responsible for our own actions. Nobody can act to remove sin but us, as this verse make clear:
19. Yet you say, "Why does the son not bear with the sin of the father?" But the son has practiced justice and righteousness, he has kept all My laws and he carries them out; he shall surely live.
20. The soul that sins, it shall die; a son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, and a father shall not bear the iniquity of the son; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself. - Ezekiel 18:19-20
And I do not need to begin to tell you that human sacrifice is an unacceptable practice.
I'm assuming when you posted this that you didn't have the chance to read over that link to Rambam, because if you did then you would understand that Jesus cannot qualify to be the Jewish moshiach, and that the moshiach has nothing to do with removal of sin. But just to cover the bases let me here post some of the requirements of the moshiach (this brief list excerpted from a page at kosherjudaism.com, link provided below:
http://www.kosherjudaism.com/moshiach.pdf
If you follow the link you will find a fuller description, contrasted with the Christian view of the messiah. Now, as you can see, this provides a much different character than the one described in the GT.
Your blatant "chosen" mentality saddens me. It is a shame that some groups of Christianity took a Jewish concept that simply referred to its unique covenantal obligations and relationship via these to God and reinterpreted as applying to themselves to mean being in with God while all others are out, destined for heaven, while all others are destined for hell.
I see, so instead of answer directly to what I pointed out about Israel being explicitly told to be the servant or about the differences between the texts, you retreated to reasserting that your subjective reality is more true than mine.
I think you'll find that if you think about who you are speaking to before you speak to them, and resist the knee-jerk compulsion to say the first thing that comes to your mind, you'll offend much less. Do you really think that a reference to Hitler as a more acceptable messiah than Jesus wouldn't offend a Jew, or, for that matter, repeated attempts to proselytize, using statements that suggest you know better than they do about their own books?
Like all heavenly creatures, HaSatan lacks free will. If he acts in a certain way, it is because God has commanded it.
How do you know Jesus said it? Have you examined the artwork? The images of Jesus on the cross look identical to earlier images of Mithras and others. It seems much more likely that the myth of Jesus was created as a way to attract pagans, or because of the involvement of pagans early on.
I can write back if I choose to do so. If you are unable to speak to an other on equal footing, if you are uncomfortable voicing your views outside of a place where everyone will either agree with you, or disagree in small ways, you are welcome to walk away and not reply back.
Dauer
Saltmeister
The Dangerous Dinner
Silas said:
Silas, I was wondering. Do you not think that people have heard this all before, or at least anticipate what you were going to say before you said it?
Simply doing what people expect me to do is not something that appeals to me. Christianity can be expressed in many different ways. It's not uncommon for Christians to pump the same words out as what went in. Here's the thing -- The English language, or any other language for that matter, has a lot more words than what you were using.
But, most importantly, I think there's a lot more to Christianity than just repeating the story we were told. Why not start a process of self-discovery, discover who you are as a person, and find the true meaning of Christianity that way?
Silas said:
Considering what I just said about discovering Christianity by discovering yourself, and what Dauer said about subjective Truth, I would say that for now, Jesus is no more than just the "Christian Messiah."
I see that you're excited, but I think silence is a virtue you might consider developing. Imagine if every Christian did this. We all go around repeating the same story that people told us. Everybody would hear the same story expressed in the same words. It would get kind of boring don't you think? Why not shut up for a while, give yourself time to reflect, to discover who you are as a person, and then announce to people what the story now means to you?
But . . . here's what I'm thinking. People might be less offended if you told a more personal story. You're not exactly telling a story that personally means something to you? Are you not just repeating the story you were told?
As I said, Christianity can be expressed and approached in different ways. Copy-cat Christianity (doing what other Christians do, saying what other Christians say) is just one approach. Christianity has more meaning when it's personal. It has more value when we discover a way of thinking about Christianity that has meaning to us.
Methinks Dauer is that kind of person with regard to Judaism. He does not just repeat what the Rabbis say to him. He's a thinker. Actually, I have not met any Jew here who just repeats the same terminology. But I suppose it's because I don't visit the Judaism forum very often. Maybe I just don't know Judaism well enough. Dauer has a way of detechnicalising things. Not sure if all Jews are like that. It's just an impression. What he says is theoretical, yet it doesn't have the level of dogma Christians often shoehorn into their ideas when they get theoretical.
(I think Dauer was offended because you didn't seem to appreciate his free-thinker attitude, not simply because you were sharing your experience of Christianity. He's probably not that bad a person once you get to know him.)
That's one thing that baffles me. If a Christian is theoretical, he's usually dogmatic, or has a habit of using the same words over and over again. If he is not dogmatic, he avoids the theoretical stuff altogether (I might label this as "liberal"). I do believe it's possible to be theoretical without being dogmatic, systematising, structuring and technicalising everything. It's where we reason about Christianity in a more natural and down-to-earth manner. But this kind of thing is rarely developed in Christians. It seems that we can't help wanting to have something "solid" on which we can hang our faith.
Dauer said:
Now that is something I don't quite agree with. I don't see Christianity as a story about a God who died and came back to life. I think the idea is incorrectly seen as "God" literally dying rather than people violating Justice, or "God", because an innocent man, a good man, was unjustly killed. Because we belong to two different faiths this is would be understandable. Also, what exactly does one mean by "pagan?"
But I guess that's the thing about religion, so many things can be misrepresented or awkwardly expressed. There are so many ways of offending people because of the way we represent or express concepts in religions, so I would agree with what you said on subjectivity. The idea is to understand the subjectivity of concepts in a religion.
Silas - a question for you - do you realise how ignorant you come across?
Whatever you believe, I'm fine with, and don't have a problem with. But look at your responses above - you have no interest in anything other than what you believe in, and pushing that on others. You are so sure of yourself that you simply come across as haughty and proud.
At least many of the other Christians at CR have some humility, or at the very least agree to disagree where opinions differ.
You don't even allow that - you express yourself as if everyone else is beneath you, and that only you can help save them.
Take the above - Dauer says he finds your use of Hebrew names offensive - so your response is to lay into more and try to rub in salt. How is that constructive? How does that make you look?
Do you see a problem with this approach at all?
Whatever you believe, I'm fine with, and don't have a problem with. But look at your responses above - you have no interest in anything other than what you believe in, and pushing that on others. You are so sure of yourself that you simply come across as haughty and proud.
At least many of the other Christians at CR have some humility, or at the very least agree to disagree where opinions differ.
You don't even allow that - you express yourself as if everyone else is beneath you, and that only you can help save them.
Take the above - Dauer says he finds your use of Hebrew names offensive - so your response is to lay into more and try to rub in salt. How is that constructive? How does that make you look?
Do you see a problem with this approach at all?
lunamoth
Episcopalian
A troll in Christian clothes is a troll all the same.
Saltmeister,
Pagan is of course an extremely ambiguous word, and when I use it, I never use it with a negative connotation. In this case I was using it to refer to the pagan religions of Rome. It would have been more specific if I had thus said, pagan Rome or Roman paganism. In Rome we do see myths of gods who die and are born again, like bacchus, mithras, etc. Of course your understanding of what happened is entirely historically possible, but imo the reason the concept of a dying god became (and has for most remained) a central belief of Christianity for so long is because of the influence of the Romans. I of course have no problem with the beliefs of the Romans. It's simply not a Jewish belief, and I have been attempting to demonstrate the incompatibility of what Silas has been selling with what Jews tend to believe.
If we're actually talking about what really did happen, and not how it's generally understood now, I really think that Jesus died at the hands of the Romans, because the descriptions in the GT of the trial don't match with what we know about about halachic court procedure, and that, being a very small minority, and Jewish on top of that, the early Christians at some point had to make it a Jewish court instead of a Roman one as a matter of self preservation. It also seems like in some places where the word Pharisee is used, it should really be Sadducee. The Sadducees had control of the Temple so the incident with the moneychangers for example would have been an issue with them. But by the time the Early Christians were really solidifying, the Sadducees were no more and the future of the Jewish people was those who built off of the teachings of the Pharisees. So there would be no relevance to have a foil nobody could recall so easily.
I don't presume I know what actually happened. I just don't think we have enough reliable material to work with. But I think the above is much more likely than supernatural involvement (which is of course always the case given my rejection of supernaturalism.)
Dauer
Pagan is of course an extremely ambiguous word, and when I use it, I never use it with a negative connotation. In this case I was using it to refer to the pagan religions of Rome. It would have been more specific if I had thus said, pagan Rome or Roman paganism. In Rome we do see myths of gods who die and are born again, like bacchus, mithras, etc. Of course your understanding of what happened is entirely historically possible, but imo the reason the concept of a dying god became (and has for most remained) a central belief of Christianity for so long is because of the influence of the Romans. I of course have no problem with the beliefs of the Romans. It's simply not a Jewish belief, and I have been attempting to demonstrate the incompatibility of what Silas has been selling with what Jews tend to believe.
If we're actually talking about what really did happen, and not how it's generally understood now, I really think that Jesus died at the hands of the Romans, because the descriptions in the GT of the trial don't match with what we know about about halachic court procedure, and that, being a very small minority, and Jewish on top of that, the early Christians at some point had to make it a Jewish court instead of a Roman one as a matter of self preservation. It also seems like in some places where the word Pharisee is used, it should really be Sadducee. The Sadducees had control of the Temple so the incident with the moneychangers for example would have been an issue with them. But by the time the Early Christians were really solidifying, the Sadducees were no more and the future of the Jewish people was those who built off of the teachings of the Pharisees. So there would be no relevance to have a foil nobody could recall so easily.
I don't presume I know what actually happened. I just don't think we have enough reliable material to work with. But I think the above is much more likely than supernatural involvement (which is of course always the case given my rejection of supernaturalism.)
Dauer