Glossolalia

[wil]

I've zero, zip, no knowledge of this. I can't/don't count what I've seen on TV or in Borat.

So what interests me is the concept of the interpretter.

Is the interpretter able to speak/interpret at will?

Can the interpretter write the language?

Or is the interpretter only able to interpret during the speaking of someone else?

Does the speaker have any idea what they are saying?

Is it possible that the Mormon information is similar to this?

 

[Snoopy]

I don't have any traditional scientific explanations, although there may be some out there. I can only give you what I understand from the Biblical accounts....

...Anyway--that's my take on the "horse and cart" (and I don't even have any coffee this morning! . Hope it is somewhat helpful.

InPeace,
InLove

Hey InL (!)

Thanks for taking the time to post all this; so now I know! Your anecdote sent a little shiver up my spine.

s

 

[InLove]

Ugh! Lost my post, and then the phone rang. Hope the third try is charmed.

You are welcome, SNOOPY (There, all fixed, but I cannot guarantee that the process will not start all over again). Now that you are healed, let me know if your speech process changes, okay?

I am certainly no expert in this area. I would love to hear from someone who has actually experienced this phenomenon personally, as long as it is someone who understands and can practice the code of conduct. I'd hate to see this worthwhile conversation turn into a slugfest.

Wil, it is 1 Corinthians 14 that talks in depth about interpreters. I would start with chapter 13, though, for a better understanding. Can't go wrong with chapter 13, IMO.

Flow and Dondi--I have had thoughts in this area, as well. I guess one's view on the comparisons/contrasts with Babel would be different according to background, studies, etc.

Scarlet, thanks. I didn't think that the Lutheran view usually embraced speaking in tongues. But then again, I never thought I would see the issue so highly debated among the Baptists. By the way, the article I recently read concerning the Baptist quandry was called "Tongues Tied". (Thought that was cute.) That's a cool way that the church you attended in college celebrated Pentecost. I've never heard of that before.

Well, hopefully I won't lose this post. I know it has something to do with lack of coffee.

InPeace,
InLove

 

[Caimanson]

Wil, I can only speak of what I've seen and witnessed, because there is only so much in the bible on these matters, it is an experiential thing.

My response to your questions is based on the assumption that we are talking of spontaneous spirit led tongues and interpretation.
Please remember that one can willfully pray in tongues, but that imo is not the "real" thing. And also that there are people there faking interpretations as well.

Is the interpreter able to speak/interpret at will?

No, the one who speaks does it spontaneously, and the one who interprets is also aroused spontaneously.

Can the interpretter write the language?

No, because there isn't any literal equivalent, is not like a language that you could learn or translate. There is a lot of emotion and intonation going on, more than just "words".

Or is the interpretter only able to interpret during the speaking of someone else?

I've seen people interpreting what they are mumbling.

Does the speaker have any idea what they are saying?

Yes, at least a gut feeling.

Is it possible that the Mormon information is similar to this?

I have no idea what the mormons say on this matter.


I am skeptic as to where the tongues come from, but even if it is a 100% human manifestation I think it is useful and powerful as a cathartic and expressive medium.

 

[flowperson]

I believe that I've experienced something akin to speaking in tongues, but it involved what is called automatic writing.

I knew that I was receiving privileged information and I knew that I was writing it down. But I had no idea of how or why it had invaded my brain. That's what it felt like. Like something foreign, that also cared for me and had chosen me for this work, just decided that I was to be his/her instrument. It was quite analogous to being a musical instrument in some ways I suppose.

The wind was blowing through me and I was creating art/music/written language as a result. I'm pretty sure that my son has also had similar experiences creating works of symbolic art with acrylics and found objects, but he hasn't talked to me about it yet. His artwork, in part, expanded upon the thematic substance of the things I was led to write about. But he hadn't read any of what I'd written.

Everything else was obliterated and pushed aside and the messages being given to me took priority. For me it was a traumatic experience to know that at this time I really was not in control of what I was writing. Later, when I edited and refined the information it was all me. These experience along with a near death episode changed me in significant ways...for the better I think.

flow....

 

[flowperson]

duplicate post

 

[seattlegal]

I've thought about this, too. But there is one gleeming difference.

The Tower of Babel incident served to confound people. It caused the work on the tower to cease because of a language barrier, and everyone thus scattered.

Pentacost, however, brought people together and everyone understood in their own language.

The speaking in tongues without an interpreter could certainly serve as a source of confusion within the congregation! I guess as Ecclesiastes 3 says, there is a time to break down, and a time to build up: a time to keep silence, and a time to speak.

 

[InLove]

Flow--

Re: auto-writing. I have experienced this as well. I have always just called it "inspiration", and I still can see it that way. But during that time, it was truly intense and profuse and abundant. And when I peruse those works, I am always filled with wonder--even the words I wrote declare that they are not mine. Every now and then, a situation arises wherein something from these writings is utilized in the most amazing way. I always know when to present them.

I am thinking that, as Caimanson and Seattlegal have noted, there is a time for everything.

InPeace,
InLove

 

[Dondi]

I will go out on a limb and say that I have personnally experienced this phenomena of tongues.

By let me preface something here in regards to this. Though I asked Christ into my life in a Baptist church at around age 12, in my later teen years I drifted from God, until I was 22. When I turned back to God, I has experienced the most powerful Love that I ever could imagine. My heart just melted into His mercy, forgiveness, and grace as I opened my heart to Him. Unlike my salvation at 12, this experience showed my truly how much God loved me and accepted me back.

I began looking for a church and an aquaintence invited me to a Pentacostal church. Needless to say, it was quite a jolt to hear people speak in tongues for the first time. I really didn't know what to make of it. I was a bit skeptical. Yet, there was that same sense of love with these people that just clicked with me. I could tell that the members had a geniune love for God and love for people. And being naive in my new found faith, I started attending this church.

The unfortunate thing about this church is that they were caught up in a rather exclusive st of doctrines that stated that in order to be saved, one must be baptized in Jesus' name (as opposed to the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, in which I was baptized at age 12), based on Acts 2:38. The reason for this is that they had a bizarre belief that Jesus was all three members of the Trinity. They built their whole doctrine around that one verse. Furthermore, in order to be saved, in addition to be baptized in Jesus' name, one must be baptised in the Holy Spirit...with the evidence of speaking in tongues.

As I said, I was naive in my new found faith. Yet I was quite concerned about this doctrine. it presented the horrifying thought that my Mom, Dad, Sister, and Brother were really not saved, though they all accepted Christ in their lives at one time or another. That bothered me much and I kept that in the back of my mind.

Despite this, I had such a hunger for God that I continually sought God in this church. And I made such wonderful Christian friends there, that were quite unlike my secular friends. And one thing they taught me was how to pray and intercede to God. I found when I prayed that God laid on my heart burdens for those that I prayed for. W'd have hour long prayer sessions praying for those that we knoew, those that we didn't know, pastors and missionaries around the world, souls to be saved, prayed for our President and our leaders. And God really put a burden on my heart for people and I really tried to reach people at work for Christ. Mind you, though, I didn't yet pray in tongues.

But they kept pressing me to get "saved' according to their beliefs. So the first thing I did was get baptised again...this time in Jesus' name. OK, no big deal here. i didn't mind getting dunked again.

So the only thing that was left was to get baptised by the Holy Spirit (which I thought that I was that night I turned back to God and felt God's love). No, no, they said, you have to speak in other tongues, they said.

One visiting evangelist called on people to come to the alter so that he could pray for them, so I went down so that I could get saved. He asked me if I was baptised in Jesus' name, and I said yes. then he placed his hand on my forehead and started praying for me. And I felt tjis sensation like electricity flowing out of his hand, into my head and flowing right through me. It was the same sensation of love that I felt before.

But I still didn't speak in tongues. And I was disappointed as to why. Did not god want to save me? My pastor assured me that it will come. She (yes, she) even prayed with me several times and patted my chin to invoke the tongues. But nothing happened. Days passed, and still nothing. Needless to say, I was a bit upset.

But then I thought that maybe I was trying to hard and not allowing God to speak through me. That I was trying to force it out. If God wanted to control my tongue, then I have to relinquish control. So one time I just knelt down started praying for people like I usually do and then my words just came out all different. I stopped suddenly wondering if it wasn't a fluke. So then i started praying normal again, and it happened again. I was speaking what sounded like gobbly-gook. I had no understanding what I was speaking. Yet when I spoke it, the Spirit of Love came over me and filled me again. I realized that I must have spoken in tongues and I got up and ran to my pastor and told her what happened. She then proclaimed me saved.

To make a long story short, I ened up leaving that church because i couldn't agree with the doctrine that you must speak in tongues to be saved.

That's when I started going to the charsmatic Baptist church. I still spoke in tongues from time to time, but it occurred when I wasn't expecting it druing my prayers.

I'm going to stop this post now, but my next post will be my analysis of what I believe now about tongues.

 

[flowperson]

Thank you for your posts InLove and Dondi. You have brought enlightenment to me regarding my experiences. I'm looking forward to more here sharing what they have experienced in the ways of spiritual motivation.

flow....

 

[Dondi]

Analysis: My experience with tongues

As the years passed, tongues have held a decreasing importance in my life. I don't deem it necessary for salvation, nor do I believe it is important to practice on a regular basis. I believe it is far more important to seek God out in one's heart, believe and trust Him for your life, and obey Him in love.

I used to think that speaking in tongues had some magical significance, like if I were to speak it I would be more spiritual. It sorta puffed me up that I had something other Christians didn't have, and I wanted so much to experience what I had. I was disappointed in the responses from my mainline Christian friends.

But now I realize that it wasn't tongues or even some spiritual experience that should be the emphasis, but rather developing a relationship with God the Father through Jesus Christ that's important. (Yes, I'm a Trinitarian again) That God would much rather manifest himself in the work of one's walk than in experiences. Not that experiences are bad, for sometimes we need comfirmation that God is still with us.

But any phenomenom we experience ought come out of our walk with God. Even now, when I am praying and praising God in my car, I find myself just bursting out in tongues for a second. It only comes out of my exuberance for God and thinking of the wonderful things He has done in my life and the lives of others. Same goes for that indecribable sense of love that I get from the Holy Spirit, which by the way, is rarely ever accompanied with tongues. It is joy unspeakable and full of glory.

I do not seek tongues. But I do not have any judgements for those who do. And I never allow myself to be seen speaking in tongues, neither in my normal Baptist church I attend now, nor in front of my family. (My wife and kids do not know about my tongues. All those things happened when I was single). if it happens, it happens in my own privacy, usually in my car. It is an outflow of my relationship with God, rather than the cause of it.

Instead, I believe God wants us to heed the words in the Book that we do understand before even entertaining the idea of additional 'revelation" for our lives. I believe that God is more concerned for our love for one another and that we need to pray for one another in earnest, with or without tongues. Frankly, I think that God would rather have us pray honestly in the language we can understand and form the words that will show compassion to one another than some gobbly-gook that no one understands. I believe the Apostle Paul agrees with me somewhere. Everything must be done in Love, else it is nothing.

Did I really speak in tongues? I don't know. Maybe it was just psychosomatic. I really don't care. My duty is to obey God and trust him for my life and the life of my family, friends, church, job, and whatever work of the Lord He would have me to do. And you don't need tongues for that.

 

[InLove]

Thank you, Dondi. I didn't know. I am glad to have your thoughts and writings to consider. They mean a great deal to me.

InPeace,
InLove

 

[Francis king]

my experience with tongues...

I was involved with a xtian baptist/evangelical/pentacostal church for a while, many moons ago, and this organisation also believed that speaking in tongues was a sign that u had been baptized in the holy spirit... I was facinated by the whole tongues thing, and believed the tale in the bible about the pentacostal flame, etc, like most xtians do, although I had never witnessed ppl speaking in tongues, until I encountered this church... well, being a curious cat, I sat in their circle and listened to them pray in tongues, and was suprised to discover that I recognised about 70-80% of what they said, and I would not listen to one individual, but the whole group- and what I heard was a mix of european languages, some latin, some swahili, and a few words in sanskrit/hindi... what was curious, though was what the group said to me, in their admixture of tongues... it appeared that what they said was- they didnt really want me in their church, that I was a tramp, (I was homeless at the time..) but if I'd let jesus into my heart, I'd become okay, and they were all praying I'd become more committed to the church...

...I did not know whether between them they had concocted this speil for me to listen to, as they knew I was interested at that time in languages, especially sanskrit, or whether this experience was pure coincidence, and I was hearing my own fears, some kind of transference, etc, and so I shelved concluding until I had seen some more...

well, eventually, there came a day when ppl got baptised in spirit, by the pastor, and the flock, and they offerred it to me, but I wasn't buying, although a few ppl went for it, and I watched this young lad, about 18, who had aspergers, and was bang into jesus, be filled with the spirit by the pastor...

yet horror of horrors, it didnt work...

the lad was desperate to believe it was gonna happen, and then he'd be accepted by the church and god, and the spirit, etc, but no, no words came from his lil lips, even though he was trying his best to let the spirit in...unlike eveyone else, his condition meant even though he wanted to do it, he couldn't, cos he just couldn't pretend like that...

eventually the pastor spoke to him, loud enough for me to hear, and said- repeat after me, blah blah, babble, babble, which the lad did, and the pastor declared this a resounding success, which of course, ppl wanted to accept, as it tasted great in the mouth, but we were all left with a funny taste in our bellies afterwards...

Today, my belief is this.... yes, maybe the holy spirit came down and set fire to ppl's hair, and gave them the power to speak in tongues, but maybe like so much else in the bible, this itself is allegory.. rather than be able to use foreign languages without knowing what u say, maybe the holy spirit allows u to be good at languages that u study, maybe the spirit helps u pick them up quickly, so that u can go off and tell ppl the good news...

 

[InLove]

Hi Francis--

Well, that certainly is another take on the subject. And I think that the experience you described is sadly all too often the case. But from what I have been able to glean so far, I still strongly suspect that there are genuine manifestations of glossalalia. If there are, then I think it is exceedingly . But for me (and as Dondi explained for himself) it is not necessary. Then again, I try to be open to any gift that may come my way....

InPeace,
InLove

 

[path_of_one]

Thank you, Dondi, for your testimony of your experiences (and analysis). It was very interesting to me. I had a very different background (in terms of denominations and such), but came to much the same conclusions.

I was raised Lutheran. It is a very peaceful and organized service. You don't speak in tongues, raise your hands, or cry/shout/dance/etc. during the service. It's only in the last few years that I've been to Lutheran churches that applaud after a solo musical performance.

I love the Lutheran church, and whether I became conditioned to be quiet and dignified in church or whether I would be anyway (as I am not extraverted anyway) I do not know.

But... I experienced the kind of thing Dondi talked about anyway. It normally comes to me when I am alone, often when I'm in nature or singing praise/worship songs. I feel an overwhelming sense of love and peace and joy. It is not always necessarily "happy" though it is always joyful. Sometimes I also feel an overwhleming sense of longing and a kind of grief (over what I am at times, over what we do to the world). I often break into tears, raise my hands to the heavens, and sing in a language that isn't a known language. I know what I'm saying, but it's like I'm not the one saying it, in a way. Or the part of me saying it isn't the usual "me." I've sometimes experienced the same kind of thing in art or writing while doing calligraphy and meditating on God. My hands form signs I don't really know, but I understand what I'm saying.

It doesn't happen that often, just here and there. I've never really sought after it, and since I grew up in a church that discouraged that sort of thing (and I am introverted and wouldn't want to draw attention to myself in a crowd anyway), it was just always my own kind of thing- between myself and God. I continue to really love going to the traditional liturgical churches best (I love coming out peaceful and like I spent an hour meditating- it's just the best thing for me), and sometimes I feel so odd that what I am led to in a church is not what I'm led to in my private times of worship. But it is what it is, and perhaps to everything there is a season... for every person too. What is right for some in a crowd may be right for others alone and may not be necessary for yet others.

As for how I think about it... I have some odd ideas about it, because I know from various stuff I've seen/read in anthropology that shamans and mystics of all religions experience this sort of thing. It seems to be a part of the whole trance/altered state of consciousness, to greater or lesser degrees. I tend to see it for myself as just part of how my brain works. I've always had a tendency to slip into trance states, though moreso as a child than as an adult.

I believe that such states are a doorway to, rather than a destination. That is, if you can (or force through various methods) enter an altered state of consciousness, you exist in a kind of doorway between the physical "world" and the spiritual one. I do not seek the doorway. It just happens. I also pray a lot that God protects me in that doorway, and I believe the more you are focused on God, the more likely it is that He meets you there. I believe there are others that can meet you there- not just demons but various other spirit entities as well, and those others are much like people. Some are good, some not so much. I suppose you could seek any one of them in the doorway; I just think God is the safest and best one to seek if you find yourself there.

 

[Dondi]

Thank you, path, for sharing your experiences. Now I don't feel so awkward and alone in this. You've pretty much hit the nail on the head with me, especially about God meeting us there. It's kinda like a spiritual hug from God.