Birth of the Baha'u'llah

[arthra]

Imran:

It will nice to know which "traditions" are accepted by the Bahais. And also more importantly, what are the relevant criteria for the same. As I had mentioned, there are 3 volumes of Beharul Anwar about the Mahdi which detail his genealogy, birth, occultation etc. Yet we are confronted with one tradition which appears in the footnote of volume 38 as a proof for the Mahdi. Why are the rest of these traditions in Beharul Anwar (probably more than 500) not accepted? Is it because they are contrary to the belief of the Bab as the Mahdi?

My reply:

Any time we discuss traditions they should be primarily available as sources for examination but there are some which apparently are accepted by Shiahs and used by them which Baha'is also have been aware of and which no doubt as a student you are also aware and among them are these:

When the Qa'im rises he will come with a new commission, just as the Prophet in the beginning of Islam called the people to a new commission

Ithbat al-hudat Vol. 7, p. 110.

I don't have direct access to these books and they are not that readily available so discussing them is "third hand" but considering the Hadith above it would seem that a new religion is implied in the above. We've discussed this previously.

Imran:

As a student of the Bahai faith for long, I am not surprised by this as I myself have raised the issue of the books of the Bab wherein only "selected" writings of the Bab are available. The rest are labelled as alterations or forgeries.

My reply:

As a student of the Baha'i Faith for so long, you should know this is not the whole story... The priority for Baha'is has been to make available the Writings of Baha'u'llah... The Writings of the Bab are not all labelled as "alterations or forgeries" but it takes an involved process to make these available as translations... There were cases where some of the Writings of the Bab were intercepted by His enemies and altered and some were inerpolated by others...considering that even possessing such Writings could merit imprisonment or execution they were also not in the best of conditions having to be concealed in damp places or cranies in walls.

Imran:

Secondly, the belief of the Mahdi in Islam , particularly Shiite Islam is not "cultural" as you have mentioned. It is an integral part of Shiite Islam. The Mahdi was spoken about by the Holy Prophet of Islam (pbuh) and then by the succeeding Imams. When you say cultural, you make it sound as if it was something that "just came up", which is not correct.

My reply:

It is cultural as defined as a religious movement when we are discussing the expectation of the Qa'im.

Imran:

I could not understand what was the point about the books being available only in Farsi and Arabic and not that many in English.

My reply:

The issue is that the direct sources are not that available as above.

- Art

 

[imranshaykh]

Imran:
It will nice to know which "traditions" are accepted by the Bahais. And also more importantly, what are the relevant criteria for the same. As I had mentioned, there are 3 volumes of Beharul Anwar about the Mahdi which detail his genealogy, birth, occultation etc. Yet we are confronted with one tradition which appears in the footnote of volume 38 as a proof for the Mahdi. Why are the rest of these traditions in Beharul Anwar (probably more than 500) not accepted? Is it because they are contrary to the belief of the Bab as the Mahdi?

My reply:

Any time we discuss traditions they should be primarily available as sources for examination but there are some which apparently are accepted by Shiahs and used by them which Baha'is also have been aware of and which no doubt as a student you are also aware and among them are these:

When the Qa'im rises he will come with a new commission, just as the Prophet in the beginning of Islam called the people to a new commission

Ithbat al-hudat Vol. 7, p. 110.

I don't have direct access to these books and they are not that readily available so discussing them is "third hand" but considering the Hadith above it would seem that a new religion is implied in the above. We've discussed this previously.

Imran:

As a student of the Bahai faith for long, I am not surprised by this as I myself have raised the issue of the books of the Bab wherein only "selected" writings of the Bab are available. The rest are labelled as alterations or forgeries.

My reply:

As a student of the Baha'i Faith for so long, you should know this is not the whole story... The priority for Baha'is has been to make available the Writings of Baha'u'llah... The Writings of the Bab are not all labelled as "alterations or forgeries" but it takes an involved process to make these available as translations... There were cases where some of the Writings of the Bab were intercepted by His enemies and altered and some were inerpolated by others...considering that even possessing such Writings could merit imprisonment or execution they were also not in the best of conditions having to be concealed in damp places or cranies in walls.

Imran:

Secondly, the belief of the Mahdi in Islam , particularly Shiite Islam is not "cultural" as you have mentioned. It is an integral part of Shiite Islam. The Mahdi was spoken about by the Holy Prophet of Islam (pbuh) and then by the succeeding Imams. When you say cultural, you make it sound as if it was something that "just came up", which is not correct.

My reply:

It is cultural as defined as a religious movement when we are discussing the expectation of the Qa'im.

Imran:

I could not understand what was the point about the books being available only in Farsi and Arabic and not that many in English.

My reply:

The issue is that the direct sources are not that available as above.

- Art

I am not sure what to make of your response. At one place, you tell me that original books are not available in Persian and Arabic, yet on the other hand you bring one tradition from Isbatul Huda. Incidentally, I was just finalising a response to this argument about a "new" commission brought by the Qaem. I will have it up on the web site in the next 24 hours or so. If you do not want me to give any reference to my web site in this forum, I will be happy to paste the entire article here for your reference.

Secondly, you have still not answered the following points from where this discussion originated.

1. How is the tradition of Imam Ali a proof for the birth of Bab and Bahaullah.

2. Why is only one tradition from the footnote of Behar vol 38 taken as a proof for the Bab where as there are hundreds of traditions available about the Mahdi in the same book, albeit in volume 51, 52 and 53.

3. Beharul Anwar is not some hidden book. It has been available for long. Even before Bab and Bahaullah. So it is available for examination. In fact a few volumes (definitely volume 51) are available in English.

Regarding the books of the Bab, given that his credibility is so important to the Faith since he is the one who prophecised the coming of Bahaullah, then why is it taking so long to translate the book. Also given that SWB is available in English, obviously someone must have read the book and taken taken out the "selected writings" for translation. Where are those version which were referred to which selecting the "Selected Writings" of the Bab. Request whoever did SWB to release those versions please.

Finally regarding the cultural issue - will you call the Holy Prophet as cultural, namaz as cultural - I would assume that your answer to that question is no because these are not incidental, but integral to Islam. In the same manner, waiting for the Mahdi is not cultural or incidental, but is an integral part of Islam.

Anyway, I will request a return to the original discussion. How is the tradition of Imam Ali which is available in the footnote of Behar, volume 38 construed to be a prophecy of the birth of Bab and Bahaullah. It will be nice if we can complete this discussion first.

Warm regards,
Imran

 

[arthra]

The original issue of this thread is not whether there is a tradition from the Imam Ali about the births of the Bab and Baha'u'llah..Check the OP.

- Art

 

[imranshaykh]

The original issue of this thread is not whether there is a tradition from the Imam Ali about the births of the Bab and Baha'u'llah..Check the OP.
- Art

You are correct. The original thread is not about the tradition of Imam Ali found on the footnote of Behar, volume 38, page 271 and liberally quoted by the Bahais as being the fulfilment of the prophecy of the birth of Bab and Bahaullah. I will not ask this question again in this thread.

But since you pointed it out, I will rephrase your point - the question was not whether the tradition exists or not. The tradition exists. In fact my friend Scott even saved my time in locating it in Behar. The question was that how does it fit the prophecy of the births of the Bab and Bahaullah. This still remains unanswered.

Warm regards, as always
Imran

 

[Mick]

You are correct. The original thread is not about the tradition of Imam Ali found on the footnote of Behar, volume 38, page 271 and liberally quoted by the Bahais as being the fulfilment of the prophecy of the birth of Bab and Bahaullah. I will not ask this question again in this thread.

But since you pointed it out, I will rephrase your point - the question was not whether the tradition exists or not. The tradition exists. In fact my friend Scott even saved my time in locating it in Behar. The question was that how does it fit the prophecy of the births of the Bab and Bahaullah. This still remains unanswered.

Warm regards, as always
Imran

It seems to remain unanswered only to you. You have again tried to pirate a thread. No need to respond to me. I am not an academic. I am only a Baha'i that does not respond well to those that attack this Wonderful Cause and have little regard for one that supports those that attack my Friends in Iran. Unlike my fellow Baha'is I am still working on love of all Mankind, finding a couple individuals just too hard to accept as human.

Mick

 

[imranshaykh]

It seems to remain unanswered only to you. You have again tried to pirate a thread. No need to respond to me. I am not an academic. I am only a Baha'i that does not respond well to those that attack this Wonderful Cause and have little regard for one that supports those that attack my Friends in Iran. Unlike my fellow Baha'is I am still working on love of all Mankind, finding a couple individuals just too hard to accept as human.
Mick

I have no intention of pirating any threads and despite your fervent appeal not to respond, I will take the liberty of doing so.

1. Raising questions, in my extremely humble opinion, does not constitute an attack on any Faith or for that matter on any person.

2. I asked the question much much earlier in response to a post by Scott and it was responded to in this thread itself. In fact read my earlier post. I have commended Scott for locating the tradition under discussion.

3. I too love all Mankind - I love you too. But my love will not color my judgement and sense of reasoning. I will still raise questions to those elements which I do not understand.

4. One of the key elements of the Bahai Faith is adherence to 12 principles - one of which says "independent investigation of the truth". I am only following this principle. Is asking questions an integral part of investigation? In my humble opinion, yes.

5. Finally, Mick I respect your views, but Iran has nothing to do with my question which is yet unanswered.

Respectfully yours, as always
Imran

 

[Mick]

I have no intention of pirating any threads and despite your fervent appeal not to respond, I will take the liberty of doing so.

1. Raising questions, in my extremely humble opinion, does not constitute an attack on any Faith or for that matter on any person.

2. I asked the question much much earlier in response to a post by Scott and it was responded to in this thread itself. In fact read my earlier post. I have commended Scott for locating the tradition under discussion.

3. I too love all Mankind - I love you too. But my love will not color my judgement and sense of reasoning. I will still raise questions to those elements which I do not understand.

4. One of the key elements of the Bahai Faith is adherence to 12 principles - one of which says "independent investigation of the truth". I am only following this principle. Is asking questions an integral part of investigation? In my humble opinion, yes.

5. Finally, Mick I respect your views, but Iran has nothing to do with my question which is yet unanswered.

Respectfully yours, as always
Imran

Many detractors of the Baha'i Faith, because of the energy they spent trying to disprove Baha'u'llah and His Writings eventually became enlightened and became followers themselves. I will welcome you when you see the Truth in this Great Cause. I will welcome your intelligence and kindness. I will hug you with love and a yearning to share in your new acceptance. In the mean time, I will pray for you and all your fellow attackers as I do daily in the hope they will cease causing the Baha'is of Iran the pain and suffering that is brought to them daily

Mick

 

[Popeyesays]

mran: "Firstly, the tradition is from Imam Ali which clearly indicates the difference of two years in the age of the Holy Prophet and Imam Ali. Allamah Majlisi in the same footnote mentions that the age of the Holy Prophet was 66 and that of Imam Ali at the time of his martyrdom was 64. It is an acknowledged fact that the Holy Prophet and Imam Ali at their time of their DEATH were apart in age by 2 years."

The hadith says they are separated by two years. At the time of the death of Imam Ali this was true, why is it surprising that when the Imam Ali appears again he is two years younger than His master, thus resuming the relationship exactly?

That should be apparent to anyone.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Popeyesays]

Imran:
"Regarding the books of the Bab, given that his credibility is so important to the Faith since he is the one who prophecised the coming of Bahaullah, then why is it taking so long to translate the book. Also given that SWB is available in English, obviously someone must have read the book and taken taken out the "selected writings" for translation. Where are those version which were referred to which selecting the "Selected Writings" of the Bab. Request whoever did SWB to release those versions please."

Actually the Bible and the Qur'an anticipate the appearance of a Twin Manifestation. In the Bible, the Three Great Woes (woe unto those who do not heed the Word of Gd), and in the Quran: "Two blasts upon the trumpet and the second follows close upon the first."

Oh, yes; the translator--Adib Taherzadeh with the assistance of a team of translators at the World Center in the Archives section.

Mr. Taherzadeh also wrote: The Child of the Covenant, The Covenant of Baha`u'llah, The Revelation of Baha`u'llah Vols I, II, III and IV

Regards,
Scott

 

[Popeyesays]

By the by, I'm sorry I haven't been checking in so frequently. I had a contract to edit a couple of novels for a publisher and needed to get them done.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Popeyesays]

It seems to remain unanswered only to you. You have again tried to pirate a thread. No need to respond to me. I am not an academic. I am only a Baha'i that does not respond well to those that attack this Wonderful Cause and have little regard for one that supports those that attack my Friends in Iran. Unlike my fellow Baha'is I am still working on love of all Mankind, finding a couple individuals just too hard to accept as human.

Mick

Actually I agree that Imran supports the persecution, murder and destruction aimed at the Baha`i's in Iran. He probably considers it an act worthy in the sight of God. I think anyone reading the thread understands this, and his attempts to reason away the faith are seen in the light of someone who is fanatic in his denunciation.

Fortunately the western world understands the concepts of freedom of religious choice. Everytime he postulates as an innocent seeker of the truth, his true motive is obvious.

Baha`u'llah promises that the time will come when the venom and poison will be drained away from the Land of Ta (Persia) and it will become again a center of divine civilization. I think that will require the dismantlement of the political state of Iran which is hagridden by an unworthy clergy.

Regards,
Scott

 

[imranshaykh]

mran: "Firstly, the tradition is from Imam Ali which clearly indicates the difference of two years in the age of the Holy Prophet and Imam Ali. Allamah Majlisi in the same footnote mentions that the age of the Holy Prophet was 66 and that of Imam Ali at the time of his martyrdom was 64. It is an acknowledged fact that the Holy Prophet and Imam Ali at their time of their DEATH were apart in age by 2 years."

The hadith says they are separated by two years. At the time of the death of Imam Ali this was true, why is it surprising that when the Imam Ali appears again he is two years younger than His master, thus resuming the relationship exactly?

That should be apparent to anyone.

Regards,
Scott

Dear Scott:

Firstly, it is a prophecy of Imam Ali (as) about his death that he would be martyred when his age would be less than the Holy Prophet (pbuh) by 2 years. Not that Ali preceeded the Holy Prophet by 2 years. So your analogy is flawed. In fact, just for the record, Ali was born 30 years after the Holy Prophet of Islam. Again I repeat, they were separated in DEATH and not at the time of their BIRTH by 2 years.

Secondly, you have added another dimension to the persona of the Bab by saying that "Imam Ali appeared again" - Bab was never considered as the return of Imam Ali.

Regards
Imran

 

[imranshaykh]

Actually I agree that Imran supports the persecution, murder and destruction aimed at the Baha`i's in Iran. He probably considers it an act worthy in the sight of God. I think anyone reading the thread understands this, and his attempts to reason away the faith are seen in the light of someone who is fanatic in his denunciation.

Fortunately the western world understands the concepts of freedom of religious choice. Everytime he postulates as an innocent seeker of the truth, his true motive is obvious.

Baha`u'llah promises that the time will come when the venom and poison will be drained away from the Land of Ta (Persia) and it will become again a center of divine civilization. I think that will require the dismantlement of the political state of Iran which is hagridden by an unworthy clergy.

Regards,
Scott

Thank you Scott for your kind words.

I have scant respect for the "concepts of human justice" espoused by the Western world. It was the West that bombed Iraq, Afghnistan, Lebanon practiced slavery, discriminated against blacks, which looked the other way when Muslim shrines in Iraq were bombed. Perhaps people forget the events of the prison of Abu Gharib, forget that the West destroyed Iraq on the pretext of "posession of weapons of mass destruction" and then said that nothing was found.

The West supported Saddam against Iran even though Saddam was involved in the most gruesome human rights atrocities in Iraq. They simply "looked the other way" while Saddam did what he wanted to as long as he remained an ally of the west.

The Bahais cry over the destruction of their center in Tehran. Go to Saudi Arabia where the Shiites were persecuted and the shirines of their Imams destroyed. Again, the West "looked the other way" as long as Saudi remained an ally of the West and gave them oil at lower rates.

China probably has the worst human labour rights record in the present age. But its fine for the West as long it can keep buying Chinese goods at a cheap rate.

For every case, you tell me about Iran, I can tell you 10 in Palestine.

So when I say, I have scant respect for human rights - I dont say I do not respect human right. I only scoff at the Western world's selective interpretation and implementation of it.

I believe in the human rights which were practised by the Holy Prophet of Islam and the Imam who followed him. They set standards which I believe the world should follow. Read the traditions of the Prophet and Imam Ali during their rule and see how not just men, but even women and children and also animals and trees enjoyed their protection. I believe in that school of thought. The West means nothing to me.

For long, I have mantained that the West practised double standards and will continue to do so till the time I see some change. I keep on seeing the US' statements on "human rights" violations in Iran and the fact the Bahais are being "watched" and "arrested." And I read that and say, "Sure, very good. But why are they not concerned about the millions in prisons in Abu Gharib and in Palestine."

I apologise for writing this long message. I did not intend to when I began writing it. But it is important to clarify, that I am not interested in entering a debate about human rights. The West has its own agenda which I believe is more politically motivated than driven by religion. My agenda is Belief and veracity of it in the light of the books of divinely inspired Prophets and Messengers. My arguments revolve around this only.

By coloring me as prejudiced or one who does not believe in human rights on a discussion forum does not affect me one bit nor does it help anybody.

Respectfully yours as always,
Imran

 

[arthra]

I think the discussion has digressed just a bit from it's original intentions.

For Baha'is I think it's our main interest that people be able to practise their religion in freedom... the denial of freedom of belief is really why the Founders of our Faith were imprisoned, exiled and in the case of His Holiness the Bab executed and why there are still people in jail and deprived of their rights...as they cannot even have a proper burial place without the site being desecrated so this is not just an east/west issue say between the European powers and the West on one side and Iran, Afganistan or Iraq on the other.

- Art

 

[imranshaykh]

I think the discussion has digressed just a bit from it's original intentions. For Baha'is I think it's our main interest that people be able to practise their religion in freedom... the denial of freedom of belief is really why the Founders of our Faith were imprisoned, exiled and in the case of His Holiness the Bab executed and why there are still people in jail and deprived of their rights...as they cannot even have a proper burial place without the site being desecrated so this is not just an east/west issue say between the European powers and the West on one side and Iran, Afganistan or Iraq on the other.
- Art

I second your observation completely. As a Bahai and importantly as a human being, one will and should be concerned. There are no two views about that. Perhaps my own posts reflect that I am equally concerned about the state of Muslims.

The point was that in the middle of an academic discussion, when this issue is brought up, it serves no purpose except from being a digression from what could be a very interesting discussion.

Regards
Imran

 

[arthra]

I second your observation completely. As a Bahai and importantly as a human being, one will and should be concerned. There are no two views about that. Perhaps my own posts reflect that I am equally concerned about the state of Muslims.

The point was that in the middle of an academic discussion, when this issue is brought up, it serves no purpose except from being a digression from what could be a very interesting discussion.

Regards
Imran

We are not apologists here for the West so maybe your post regarding the issue of Iraq/Iran/Afganistan, etc. would be best shared on the political forum. Since this is a Baha'i Forum, Baha'i issues are more the focus.

- Art

 

[BruceDLimber]

Greetings!

As to why it takes so long to translate Baha'i scriptures from Persian and Arabic, the answer is twofold:

1. Great care is being taken to assure all these translations are as perfect as possible so that they convey their original meanings with complete accuracy!
2. And translations aren't merely being done into English: already, Baha'i scriptures are translated into over 800 different languages! (We mustn't be overly provincial and concentrate just on English, I suggest.)

That said, translation is indeed proceeding, and we've received several new volumes of English versions of previously untranslated Baha'i scriptures in the past several years!

So all this is indeed proceeding!

Also, it's quite possible that not all 200 volumes are immediately relevant today, so it's only reasonable that a decision might be made to translate the most important and relevant works first.

Peace,

Bruce

 

[imranshaykh]

Greetings!

As to why it takes so long to translate Baha'i scriptures from Persian and Arabic, the answer is twofold:

1. Great care is being taken to assure all these translations are as perfect as possible so that they convey their original meanings with complete accuracy!
2. And translations aren't merely being done into English: already, Baha'i scriptures are translated into over 800 different languages! (We mustn't be overly provincial and concentrate just on English, I suggest.)

That said, translation is indeed proceeding, and we've received several new volumes of English versions of previously untranslated Baha'i scriptures in the past several years!
So all this is indeed proceeding!
Also, it's quite possible that not all 200 volumes are immediately relevant today, so it's only reasonable that a decision might be made to translate the most important and relevant works first.
Peace,
Bruce

Thanks Bruce:

I am particularly interested in the books of the Bab. Would you have any idea about these. Most of the books of the Bab are available in their source languages - Arabic and Persian - and have been available for as long as I can remember. Thankfully, I am fairly proficient in both languages. So the translations are not really an issue.

The issue is that which books of the Bab are considered to be authentic and which are forgeries? And also how much of each book is authentic and how much is a forgery? For example, SWB contains quotations from the Bab from his books, for example Dalaelus Sabah. The quotes from SWB match the version which I have for Dalaelus Sabah. But when we look at another page of the same book and the same version which contains a quote from the Bab which is contrary to the Bahai Faith, then I am told that the books were susceptible to forgery. For example, the Bab in Dalaelus Sabah refers to another person as the Mahdi. And does the same in Sahifae Adaliyah and in Qayyamul Asma. And yes, in Tafseere Surah Kauthar as well.

I hope I have been able to make my point. If SWB has been around for long and if the person making the translation had access to the book why are only parts of it considered authentic and freely quoted and the others labelled. Should'nt the original or official versions if I may be available for the benefit of all?

Regards
Imran

 

[Mick]

Thanks Bruce:

I am particularly interested in the books of the Bab. Would you have any idea about these. Most of the books of the Bab are available in their source languages - Arabic and Persian - and have been available for as long as I can remember. Thankfully, I am fairly proficient in both languages. So the translations are not really an issue.

The issue is that which books of the Bab are considered to be authentic and which are forgeries? And also how much of each book is authentic and how much is a forgery? For example, SWB contains quotations from the Bab from his books, for example Dalaelus Sabah. The quotes from SWB match the version which I have for Dalaelus Sabah. But when we look at another page of the same book and the same version which contains a quote from the Bab which is contrary to the Bahai Faith, then I am told that the books were susceptible to forgery. For example, the Bab in Dalaelus Sabah refers to another person as the Mahdi. And does the same in Sahifae Adaliyah and in Qayyamul Asma. And yes, in Tafseere Surah Kauthar as well.

I hope I have been able to make my point. If SWB has been around for long and if the person making the translation had access to the book why are only parts of it considered authentic and freely quoted and the others labelled. Should'nt the original or official versions if I may be available for the benefit of all?

Regards
Imran

I am curious why you keep concentrating on The Bab. We are Baha'is. We recognize The Bab and His Mysteries as we do the other Manifestations. If you are simply trying to disprove the validity of the Baha'i Faith, why not start with one of the early ones, like Abraham. Disprove the claims of Baha'u'llah concerning the mention of the "Glory of God" in the Torah. You remind me of a cracked record that keeps repeating itself. It would be refreshing to hear a new story from you.

You have been told many of the writings are not translated or published. Go find them. These people here owe you nothing, including answering all your "WHY" questions. We are not authoritive for the Baha'i Faith; simply seekers and believers of the Faith willing to try to answer questions from those curious about the principles of the Faith or information concerning Baha'u'llah. You keep pecking at individuals like it is an inquisition. Like you are going to prove something by trying to catch somebody in an error.

The only value I can see you being here is you raise subjects that we get to answer for all the lookers and readers. We also get to mention the atrocities you and your friends and cohorts are known to have laid on the heads of Baha'is in Iran and we get to point out that it hasn't stopped and is continuing today. By your presence, we get to share with others the invalidity of your website. Your kind is not new. We have had individuals bother to write books dismissing the Baha'i Faith. They simply disappear into the bin of unwanted books while the books of the Central Figures continue to sit on the shelves of the libraries here in America.

Maybe some of the members here enjoy your camoflaged academic questions. They will continue to try to "aid" you in your quest. I would suggest you simply say,

"I bear witness, O my God, that Thou hast created me to know Thee and to worship Thee. I testify, at this moment, to my powerlessness and to Thy might, to my poverty and to Thy wealth.

There is none other God but Thee, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting."

Baha'u'llah

with continuing interest

Mick

 

[BruceDLimber]

Greetings.

As I trust is obvious, I am in no position to say what is or is not authentic Baha'i or Babi scripture--nor is anyone else here to the best of my knowledge!

So there's really no point in asking the question here.

Peace,

Bruce