what is space?

[chakraman]

i read an interesting book called - occult chemistry, by well known theosophists annie besant and charles webster leadbeater. it was about clairvoyant investigations in to the periodic table. cwl would be given an element and he would use his anjic micrscope or third eye to shrink his perception and view the chemical atom as it actually was.
dr. steven m. philips, a professor of particle physics wrote a book called extrasensory perception of quarks, published in 1980. analyzing 22 diagrams of the 100 or so chemical atoms described in occ. chem. at the turn of the century he had no option but to come to the conclusion that cwl did truly observe quarks using esp some 70 years before physicists proposed their existence. he later checked another 84 of the theosophists' atoms: all were seen by him to be 100% consonant with the most recent findings of particle physicists. every one of the 3546 subquarks counted by cwl in gold could be accounted for. they had even decsribed seven isotopes undiscovered by scientist until well after their deaths. in total 5 nobel prizes have been awarded to scientists for discoveries using theoretical physics and billion dollar colliders which the 2 theosophists with their siddhi powers had observed and documented decades previously. apart from stealing the march of the scientists with their 10 mile long multi billion dollar massively energy consuming colliders for me their greatest discovery was the nature of the atoms. the smallest particle the "ultimate particle atom" consisted of a double helix. the helical tubes were full of what he described as bubbles flowing in from the astral at the top of the helix down the lenght of the tube and then flowing down and out, dissapearing back into the astral at the bottom of the helix, and they all appeared to be enclosed in a hole or wall in space. pulled out of this surrounding "hole" by the psychics power, the upa s invariably flew apart "as if released from great pressure" the contents being "extensively rearranged into astral matter". this feature was not rationally comprehensible to orthodox science until the 1980s with further developments of suprecolliders and the discovery that space, rather than being a void, is a plenum or the ether of old. hence the more solid an object is or the more "matter" it contains the more upa s it contains and therefore the more holes in space or true space it has. so in reality air is more dense than metal. i like it when things turn out to be the opposite to what is thought or observed. don't know if i've explained it well. j

 

[chakraman]

aaaaarrrrrgggghhhhh

 

[Jaiket]

cwl would be given an element and he would use his anjic micrscope or third eye to shrink his perception and view the chemical atom as it actually was.

I admit that I am immediately sceptical of such a claim. Where can I read into this?

 

[taijasi]

Thanks for this post, chakraman. You can see the atom (electron, perhaps?) of Leadbeater and Besant if you google "Babbitt's atom" under Images. This is a very detailed image, certainly drawn using the clairvoyant siddhis, as it's from a book called `Principles of Light and Color' from 1878. No electron microscopes back then, nor even a Leadbeater and Besant, whose findings only came later, and confirmed Babbitt's.

But the ANU, as observed by the Theosophists, is so similar that to suggest coincidence would be absurd. And thanks for the scientific confirmations. Eventually, even if kicking and screaming, science catches up with religion ... except where the reverse is true.

I just found an *AMAZING* page on the Atom/Anu, at The Ultimate Atom - main

Give it a look; the visualizations are awesome! It may take me awhile to digest what's being said on that webpage, but in short, it should square with what you've posted, chakraman. Even the clairvoyance that allows perception of matter in the lower worlds, is light years ahead of conventional science (once that clairvoyance is mastered and perfected). But science is catching up!!!

Skepticism is always good, in healthy doses. Too much, and it's worse than blind faith.

~Zag

 

[chakraman]

I admit that I am immediately sceptical of such a claim. Where can I read into this?

hi jaiket,
zags link may help, the book occult chemistry of course gives in depth diagrams. the findings were printed at the time in a theosophical magazine and have been verified by more than just the chap i mention. the theosophical society have the archives. what they actually did was far more incredible than what i've reproduced here. as well as shrinking their perception they could also expand it to macro-cosmic proportions. hence if you could view our planetary system from above as a clock face with the sun as the centre, they could map the position of the planets using the hours as reference; at that point in time. peter tompkins book the secret life of nature gives a conscise overview of the material and is also great read that goes much further. they of course were using kundalini energy or the serpent power. you may have seen egyptian head pieces (for want of the correct word) of a serpent coming out of the brow or third eye, this i believe indicates just how they were able to map the heavens so accurately - they were actually looking at it. the kundalini subject is interesting because all cultures have it in some form separated by sea but joined by this commonality. the australian natives (aborigine) have the rainbow snake, the indians the kundalini which rises through the chakras in the colour order of the rainbow and the mayans and native americans have similar pictorial representations. jase
as a footnote annie besant studied chemistry but was not allowed a formal qualification because she was a women.

 

[chakraman]

i like the book supernature by lyall watson, a very logical, scientific approach to supernatural phenomena. it adequately but respectfully puts science in its respective place without denigrating it. on the back cover it says;
dr. lyall watson has challenged scientific orthodoxy by applying new criteria to the investigation of supernatural phenomena. his fascinating and open-minded scientific study proves beyond doubt that science is stranger than the supernatural...

not wanting to rubbish western science, but it assumes a greater standing that it sometimes deserves and looks egotistically down at the so called unproven methods of observation.

 

[taijasi]

I wanted to post a comment relative to Leadbeater's gift of clairvoyance, which is partially my own opinion, yet also something substantiated by esotericists from the 1920s onward. Leadbeater was largely trained by Eastern teachers, and his & Besant's clairvoyant researches added much to the *scientific* understandings of the time, even if a great many scientists were denied access to their findings - owing to their own pride, and a simple refusal to consider the evidence of these "psychics."

Pity, because very much like Tesla, these 2nd-generation Theosophists were easily a century ahead in terms of their science, not to mention the religious and philosophical ideas they were espousing. Alas, we see with 20-20 *hindsight*, not foresight.

Einstein is known to have read H.P. Blavatsky's `Secret Doctrine' quite heavily, and even Elvis, whom some people still don't realize had a deeper, philosophical side ... was known to be deeply intrigued by Blavatsky's teachings. A horoscope was drawn up for him by Dane Rudyar, one of the foremost Theosophists and astrologers of the century. This can readily be found online, if you search for it.

The part about Leadbeater that's worth considering, is that although his clairvoyance was helpful, and accurate insofar as you mention, chakraman, it is my understanding (and belief), as pointed out in some of Alice Bailey's teachings ... that he may not have developed his abilities nearly as far as certain other, more recent students of these teachings. The very same teacher who worked with Leadbeater (often called simply, `The Tibetan'), worked with Alice Bailey, who was *not* psychic or clairvoyant, but who was able to take down dictation ... eventually constituting 19 full volumes of Occult Science and Philosophy.

The teachers (including the Tibetan) who worked with Leadbeater, all confirmed that he had made valuable, even tremendous contributions. His clairvoyance, it should be noted, was accurate on a smaller scale, and in terms of the human aura, but in the higher planes, or when attempting to span too far backward or forward in time, inaccuracy crept in. More details can be found, if one is interested.

But where Leadbeater got us off to a good start, in modern times, others have followed suit even more recently ... and even expanded on the contributions made, taking clairvoyance into realms, and bringing it to bear, on subjects which only the foremost scientists, or broadest-minded of theologians, have begun to speculate. Several examples follow:

Dora van Gelder Kunz, a Theosophist who may very well be alive to this day, knew Charles Leadbeater personally, and received some of her training from him. Those who have read anything by C.W.L. may find his style archaic, or feel that it needs updating, even when treating of something so down-to-earth as the human emotional aura, or astral body. Occult chemistry, understandably, will be technical regardless of who treats the topic. But Dora Kunz manages to describe the human emotional aura in a way that even a child can understand.

I have her book entitled `The Personal Aura' on the bookshelf behind me. I treasure it for the illustrations, which a friend of hers provided (one is on the cover), but also for the understanding and the crystal clear descriptions she provides. It may be purchased from Amazon.com, here, and you can "look inside" to get a preview. It should be emphasized that the artist is trying to draw in 2 dimensions what Dora has described in 4. Also, Dora's gift is probably somewhat unique, given that it is accompanied by so clear an understanding of what it is that she is observing.

The other clairvoyant who comes to mind, also someone who was a champion of the Theosophical cause for his entire life, is Geoffrey Hodson. A webpage (here) provides a good starting point, but the images have been offline for some time. If you google his name, however, you can find several pages which includes images of the Devas (or "angels"), which he has perceived clairvoyantly for decades.

Hodson's work, while it mostly focused on the Devas and also their evolutionary precursor - nature spirits, or fairies - confirmed much of what Leadbeater and Besant had observed, yet I would delicately suggest that his abilities took their findings a good step further. A few links of interest follow, and some include commentary from mainstream scientists of the present day:

Modern Theosophy: Light of the Sanctuary, extracts from Geoffrey Hodson's Occult Diary
1957-1959 Clairvoyant Investigations into atomic structure of matter (conducted in New Zealand - unpublished tape transcripts of Geoffrey Hodson)
Concerning the "Occult Chemistry" Researches <--- This link will be especially helpful
How the Vision was Analysed <--- This one too, probably
"Occult Chemistry" by Besant, Jinarajadasa, Leadbeater; 3rd edition -- Occult Chemistry online, by Besant & Leadbeater


Pax, and Pax Cultura,

~Zag

 

[chakraman]

hi zag, i'll checkout the elvis thing, he read krishnamurtis' books as well - so did bruce lee, than yer ver murch...
i understand something of cwl limitations, for instance there is a "victorian" framework that pervades his seeing or interpretation. i think there is a degree of interpretation with all the clairvoyants communications with the "masters". i feel the only people who communicate clearly with the masters, are avatars born a certain way like buddha, christ and krishnamurti who possibly being devoid of desire and hence interpretation. having said that the clairvoyants still get remarkably close. i've heard of alice bailey but not read the works associated with her; i will check them out.

there does seem to be some politics involved in these circles with some discounting others and claiming some communications from the masters which are obviously there own making, even though they are unaware of this, i believe there is even a word to describe this. although probably not in the instance you are recounting.

theres a lot about geoffrey hodson in the book i mentioned secret life of nature. a valuable contribution.

it was cwl aura reading abilities that led him to pronounce that krishnamurti was to be the vehicle for the world teacher exclaiming that; "his aura was the most wonderful he had ever seen" and "contained not one particle of selfishness." he also stated that his teaching would be so revolutionary that even they the theosophists would turn against him. a prohecy that came to pass when k denied organised religion and hierarchy. hodson has also rubbished k, which of course is o.k. but there would be no point in avatars if the masters buddha, jesus and the lord maitreya etc could speak the perrenial wisdom through such as cwl, alice bailey or hodson. they may have channeled akashic history and similar which is interesting and necessary but does not contain in my mind the really quite simple perrenial truth, which is more about vedanta and the end of knowledge.

i watched the dora kunz vid clip on the theosophical society website concerning the aura - very good. her readings of the auras' of patients were confirmed by a neuropsychiatrist as indicating their exact medical conditions.

cheers for adding the links for me and those interested, regards jase

 

[chakraman]

krishnamurti use to say pax.. could you explain please, j
some excellent links!

 

[taijasi]

krishnamurti use to say pax.. could you explain please, j

Pax is Latin for Peace, as in Pax Vobiscum - Peace be with you (plural).

Pax Cultura, which I like to use, is a direct reference to the work of Nicholas and Helena Roerich, from early in the 20th Century. They were both quite instrumental in helping to bring about the formation of the League of Nations, latterly reformed as the United Nations (possibly our last best hope for political unification in the 5th Root Race, though the Baha'i Faith, imho, presents at least one other viable possibility).

Nicholas Roerich is said to have brought a certain stone (chintamani, in one of its many connotations) to help assist with this great event - of planetary significance along 1st Ray lines. The stone is said to be a Gift from God, possibly a meteorite from Sirius (the Cosmic Christ, according to esoteric teachings).

Meanwhile Helena Roerich recorded Agni Yoga, given by Master M. of Theosophical renown, as an updated Teaching of Living Ethics for a select few students here and there whose spiritual constitution might allow for the treading of this peculiar path. These Teachings come at the same time as Alice Bailey's, the 2nd of 3 sets to be given out by Master DK, and intended for much wider usage - even by the scientist here and there who can pick up something like the Treatise on Cosmic Fire and recognize it's value. [Master DK's 3rd set of teachings may yet emerge, if it hasn't already, in the next few years.]

Other teachings, very similar to some of Alice Bailey's, are those of Master R., the amanuensis being Lucille Cedercrans in this case. The Teachings usually do not directly contradict each other, but each Master advises following the discipline provided on its own, since to mix them simultaneously can be to court disaster. No exoteric exercises are given intended to directly awaken the sleeping serpent, but it can be safely assumed that if, in the course of study with one of the Masters, this begins to occur ... then the appropriate Master or Initiate will appear to guide the student. A dabbler such as myself is perhaps not at risk in the same way as one who would attempt to mix several different meditations, though karmically I suspect I'm already in deep s**t.

Krishnamurti, or Alcyone, as the Theosophists called him (after that star of the Pleiaides around which our tiny solar system and six larger systems orbit) ... served for awhile as Christ's medium for the Aquarian Era, through a series of experiments. The strain, the degree of renunciation and personal sacrifice that must have been asked of him, cannot be imagined. For the Piscean Era, the Initiate Jesus (Joshua, Jeshua, later Apollonius of Tyana) was able to serve in this role. Circumstances with Krishnamurti were, understandably, different.

An excellent book on the matter which examines this in terms of esoteric astrology is one by Philip Linday, entitled `The Initiations of Krishnamurti.' Many esotericists believe that Jiddu Krishnamurti was already an Initiate, probably of the 3rd degree, and underwent the (4th) Arhat Initiation during his work with the Christ. I cannot figure it out precisely, but I gather he should not have done this, else it was taken under circumstances when ended the experiment with the Christ. Either way, he ceased to serve as a medium (vehicle, or vessel) at that point.

It is suggested that he took Devic Initiations, and that this was the problem. The Devic energy had, and has, much to do with the destructive aspect of Aquarian force, clearing way for the new civilization, as it were - something we see wreaking all kinds of havoc (especially with Christianity), as the older forms break up. The 6th-Ray forms in particular, as Pisces swings out of influence, are yielding way, and the conservative Christian elements are being hit by this the hardest. Science, if anything, is benefitting from the incoming 7th Ray and Uranian force, but methinks there is little sympathy shown for those who are still closely attached to the old values. More on that elsewhere ...

Krishnaji reverted, in his own teaching, to the Vedanta philosophy from an earlier lifetime, and as one Mahatma put it, this was unfortunate - not because Vedanta isn't a valid presentation of the truth, but because its day has come and gone. It is not the path of Liberation for the majority of Souls at this point, and it is *certainly* not in line with the current dispensation, or teachings, of the Christ and Lodge of Masters.

Basically, Krishnaji chose to "do his own thing," but this does not mean his teachings aren't of value. It was, however, a hard blow to the Theosophists of the day, who had come to invest all the same devotion toward the Mahatmas as the 6th-Ray Christian devotee does the Master Jesus. Only in the case of Theosophy, we see one of the earliest efforts of Hierarchy (Christ and His Ashram, or "Church") to Externalize, thus half a dozen or so Masters allowed their outward persona (or samsaric manifestation, the Nirmanakaya vesture of Buddhism) to become known. There were the original three, Masters M, KH and DK, or Melchior, Balthazar and Gaspar, as the Christian knows them from the story of Jesus' birth ... yet there were also Masters Hilarion, Serapis, Tuitit Bey, Rakoczy, et al.

Now flash over to Paul Simon's lyrics about the Sounds of Silence (what a dream, indeed), and remember that it was Blavatsky who gave out Voice of the Silence, said to have come from the Stanzas of Dzyan (whence we get Zen, also John - which is how it's prounounced), written in the Senzar pictorial language ... which is to the entire Human Brotherhood/Family, what Latin is to the Christian, or Sanskrit to the Hindu. We can read these, or a good handful of them (some yet remain to be given out), and they are the backbone, the ABC, the foundation, of the Occult Philosophy and Science of all eras, the Ageless Wisdom.

That's kind of an aside. If Krishnamurti knew all this, it was simply part & parcel of his early recapitulatory education as a pledged disciple, an initiate of preliminary degree. It is well worth studying the talks he was giving to the Theosophists at Ommen around 1925, which was one of the most significant years of the 20th Century. You can find these online, here, and I would direct you in particular to the dream of 8/11/27.

But why not just go to the source, if another perspective would help?

Here you can find the words of none other than the Christ, published in 1932 largely in direct response to the "falling out" which Krisnaji had with Besant and Leadbeater, and his Theosophical followers (the Order of the Star). A sketch is also provided, which was probably well more than many a devotee had ever seen, visually speaking, of the Master of Masters, the Lord of Angels and of Men. One can always critique the artist, but this is drawn by the same kind of (higher) clairvoyance we are discussing, not from guesswork, personal feeling, or anything other than direct impression.

Other sketches of the Masters can be found here, as also an introductory bit about the Krishnamurti question, including two chapters from books by Cyril Scott, who was in a Master's group (or Ashram) around this time. I highly recommend these two chapters, as I think they may add to your understanding (even appreciation) of Krishanmurti ... not so much from a Theosophical perspective, as one of understanding, and compassion.

Of course, in all this, I forgot to mention Alex Grey, but given your avatar/icon ... I guess you know who that is, chakraman. His paintings of the etheric and chakras are a great complement to Dora Kunz's depiction of the emotional aura.

Peace ...

~Zag

 

[chakraman]

hi zag,
good post, we certainly share some ideas/interests. i will disagree in places, though i respect your scholstic endeavour.

interested in your dabblings expound if you can. are you doing yoga or more archane methods? how does karmic s**t factor in?

if you know how to pronounce alcyone.... ive always wondered. yes he did suffer greatly throughout his life - he described this jokingly as the effects on the spine from having his head "stuck in the universe" - or zero point or hyperspace. he had many years of serpent awakening as opposed to the usual 3 days or so. apparently this was the first time this "experiment" had been carried out on earth. he describe the preparation of his eyes so he could see "him" as like being tied down in the desert and having his eyelids pinned open and being forced to stair at the sun. nice

i beleve the indian texts say that someone born to this purpose have a life that can only lead a very specific course i beleve the various arguments for the "experiment" going wrong are clearly the resentment of the theosophists after he dis banded the order of the star and relinquished the monies and properties, that had accumulated in his name, not wanting to organise truth, create new cages, philosophies or spiritual hierarchies.

you agree cwl could accurately read auras and so i think accept that k had not 1 drop of selfishness in it. a peculiarity of his birth it would seem. you probably know that he was beaten daily at school, because he could not remember anything, the result of his vacancy being protected. k quote - "so you want to know now who is the world teacher? i really dont know. he has never said who am i? he has never said is the world teacher true or not true? is this question relevant at all? what is relevant are the teachings, who the teacher is not relevant. i think the teacher being irrelavant is certainly new and must have been abhorent to the theosophists of the time.

i find the three kings story interesting. in nitya account of his brother k's initiation/awakening on the third night a star appeared over head and 3 masters visibly descended and took k away with them leaving his body - just a similarity.

i read some of the link with the dream in it as well - some very good practical advice. they seem to completely accept him until disbandment. he remarked after, that before he left he spoke in general platitudes that all wanted here and i have to concur and to me this the crux. allthough what he spoke previous to the estrangment was intelligent it was still teaching and telling and the giving of method for which to conform to, whilst after this is thankfully absent. for me enlightenment or what you will is not a positive action but rather a matter of seeing understanding and thereby removing obstructions to its natural unfoldment. which is why its so simple (!) because theres nothing to do as such, the understanding of conflict brings peace - you cant strive for peace when your in conflict because you create further conflict. the beauty is its simplicity- its for all you dont need to be a master to grasp it.

i have visited alpheus before and read the link you provide and even emailed my thoughts on it to the chap who runs the show. i have to say it didnt strike me as the words of the lord. firstly it is said that k depreciated the masters, but i disagree, he spoke of being one with his beloved and was obviously in contact with them his entire life, although theosophists would claim that he was in contact with the "blacks". it was their version of the masters he denied as he claimed symbol, form and appearence, which is interpretation, had left him.

it also states that the people who went "with" k, leaving theosophy lost the peace they had whilst believing in the masters. but for me this is inevitable - when you kick the crutch away you have to learn to walk again. also truth doesnt bring comfort it brings understanding and this may lead to a worsening at first, like homeopathy bringing the illness to the surface, as opposed to orthodox medicine sweeping the symptons under the carpet and anaesthetising the host like organised religion...takes breath...bit tired tonight..excuse...

it then goes on to describe how variou devic initiations "ruined" the vehicle i think its saying. also that people could attain his perception instantly instead of many incarnations to earn it, was also seen as unthinkable. but like it says in buddhism what has been mistreated for a long time cannot be cured in day. but for me it was the perception the planting of the seed that was instantaneous, not immediate enlightenment. the seed is then watered, enough light, dark wind etc until the flower opens to face the sun. k saw no reason why like a flower a human could come to the sun without suffering which is so readily worn like a badge to be proud of. this is revolutionary as we assume suiffering to be necessary and therein you may prolong it.

it then mentions how anyone can be a vehicle for the lord if they love him enough, really just justifying how they can channel his thoughts.. i think.

i do think it strange how cwl s' master warned him theosophy would turn against k as his teaching would be so revolutionary and they did proving the teaching to be at least revolutionary by their own act of denial.

thanks for your interesting post which raised some great q's, and i'll have to leave it there as i'm knackered and this one touch typing bent over a laptop is phew..

yeah alex grey is cool

regards j

 

[taijasi]

interested in your dabblings expound if you can. are you doing yoga or more archane methods? how does karmic s**t factor in?

I don't practice any yoga at present, although I endeavor to practice karma yoga, less vigorously than I probably should. Karmic factors include a predisposition which I am able to trace back for a cycle of seven lifetimes or so, as well as the usual handful of negative tendencies, which it is always the *present opportunity*, in the current incarnation, to offset. The more positive factors, in terms of predisposition, can include anything from various intellectual aptitudes, (aspirational) affinities for certain world religions or major spiritual ideas, to specific awareness of prior encounters with various historical figures ... such as Jesus of Nazareth, the Buddha, Zarathustra, etc. This, of course, is just the tip of the iceberg.

if you know how to pronounce alcyone.... ive always wondered. yes he did suffer greatly throughout his life - he described this jokingly as the effects on the spine from having his head "stuck in the universe" - or zero point or hyperspace. he had many years of serpent awakening as opposed to the usual 3 days or so. apparently this was the first time this "experiment" had been carried out on earth.

I have always thought it was al-see-uh-nee (phonetically), but Webster gives it as al-sigh-uh-nee. I guess I was close.

As for the "experiment," to what are you referring here? Kundalini has been successfully raised by each of the several hundred (or perhaps thousand) Adepts who preceded Krishnamurti, including Jesus of Nazareth and St. Paul, as two notable examples. It's a safe bet that anyone who thinks s/he has accomplished this successfully, probably hasn't, just as we can be certain that a person claiming to have become enlightened, also probably hasn't. The notion that this is entirely subjective, imho, should be looked at very carefully.

Did you mean something else by "experiment," however? The overshadowing of Krishnaji by the Christ, perhaps? Yes, this is isn't something that we can all expect, like clockwork, on our spiritual journey, I daresay. Just because the present Bodhisattva (`Maitreya') used this method - twice - does not mean that it is universal, except insomuch as it is symbolic of what really goes on relative to the Divine Aspect(s) in man, viewed from the personal. From a certain point of view, Humanity as a whole, is a great experiment. The whole planet, and in particular the attempt to use Initiation as a means of hastening our Spiritual evolution, is an experiment ... and this not the method used on other planets within this Solar System (or presumably within others). So there are many ways to look at this.

i beleve the indian texts say that someone born to this purpose have a life that can only lead a very specific course i beleve the various arguments for the "experiment" going wrong are clearly the resentment of the theosophists after he dis banded the order of the star and relinquished the monies and properties, that had accumulated in his name, not wanting to organise truth, create new cages, philosophies or spiritual hierarchies.

Since I see here that "experiment" does indeed refer to the effort by the Christ to gradually overshadow Krishnaji as occurred with Jesus of Nazareth, I would only say that Krishnamurti's decision upset a great many people. We can approach this sympathetically to all parties involved, without slighting anyone, if we are careful. Geoffrey Hodson accomplished this rather masterfully, I would suggest, and by combining his commentaries with those of Cyril Scott and David Anrias, I think we can get to the truth of the matter ... provided that this is what we are actually seeking. The notion that Krishnaji simply liberated the Theosophists from some kind of delusion is an incorrect one, though perhaps not entirely inaccurate. His actions definitely initiated new opportunities, and opened new avenues, both for him and the Theosophists, while also closing certain doors for himself (and the Christ), as well as leaving a good many people uncertain with regard to spiritual leadership and guidance.

you agree cwl could accurately read auras and so i think accept that k had not 1 drop of selfishness in it. a peculiarity of his birth it would seem. you probably know that he was beaten daily at school, because he could not remember anything, the result of his vacancy being protected. k quote - "so you want to know now who is the world teacher? i really dont know. he has never said who am i? he has never said is the world teacher true or not true? is this question relevant at all? what is relevant are the teachings, who the teacher is not relevant. i think the teacher being irrelavant is certainly new and must have been abhorent to the theosophists of the time.

Leadbeater may be viewed as the exoteric, or practical "eye" of the Christ and Masters, inasmuch as he assisted in identifying Krishnamurti as you describe. Consider, though, that the auras of all 60 billion human Souls are well-known to the Masters ... so that esoterically speaking, we may safely assume that if Leadbeater and Besant hadn't helped bring Krishnaji into association with his Master (and the Christ), another method would amost certainly have been employed. There is the truism that "When the student is ready, the Master will come." It is not that the Master answers our call and appears; rather, we respond to his invitation, and draw near.

In terms of the world situation, it is the same, except that Humanity's massed Invocation (even subconscious) produces a definite effect upon the Christ and Hierarchy. Christ's appearance can be hastened, or delayed, though certainly neither prevented nor forced. It is all in coordination, or timing, with the cycles. And how Krishnaji played into this, though obviously of considerable importance to his own Spiritual evolution and that given lifetime ... is really not of such outstanding signficance in view of world history. This is why, fascinating as all this is (were the average Christian to realize, or consider, that Christ has already attempted once in recent times to take a physical vehicle), it should also be put into perspective, n'est pas?

i find the three kings story interesting. in nitya account of his brother k's initiation/awakening on the third night a star appeared over head and 3 masters visibly descended and took k away with them leaving his body - just a similarity.

Krishnaji's own Master was KH, or Balthasar of the 3 Magi. It may be safely assumed (and literature will show it) that he worked closely with Masters M and DK, the other 2 wise guys. Yet his training would have brought him into close relation with any number of senior disciples (Initiates), including arhats, Masters, and even those immediate Disciples of the Christ - the Chohans, or `Meditating Dharma-Lords.' Masters KH and M were already of this degree (Sixth), in Spiritual realization if not as a fait accompli, by 1925.

i have visited alpheus before and read the link you provide and even emailed my thoughts on it to the chap who runs the show. i have to say it didnt strike me as the words of the lord. firstly it is said that k depreciated the masters, but i disagree, he spoke of being one with his beloved and was obviously in contact with them his entire life, although theosophists would claim that he was in contact with the "blacks". it was their version of the masters he denied as he claimed symbol, form and appearence, which is interpretation, had left him.

I think you should read what Krishnamurti said about the Masters after he ended his communication with them. He didn't simply deprecate them, he went so far as to say "we don't need them." Eventually, human conditions may be such that this is true. It is desired, after all. One way to think of Christ and the Masters, inasmuch as they are individuals, is kind of like cosmic babysitters. And when the Human Family has reached a much greater point of maturity, and our average level of evolution is much closer to what we now call `Masters' (or Adepts), then we won't need Them. Meanwhile, I would maintain that we do.

Ready carefully what the Masters, especially Sir Thomas, indicate about Krishnaji's teachings. They do not say that Krishnamurti was dead, flat wrong ... or even that he was teaching something altogether inaccurate. They do say that his presentation of Advaita was not a pristine example of this sublime form of Wisdom, but the real problem - even while acknowledging Krishnamurti's advanced state of Spiritual evolution - is that "in his modesty he fails to see that others have not reached it likewise." And so again, I think here is a problem for *anyone* claiming to have reached enlightenment, or to have discovered that we don't need Masters to get there!

That Krishnamurti would have been tested by black magicians, as are all disciples, at various stages, we can be certain. And given his work with the Christ, or "the experiment," if you prefer ... there would certainly have been a *constant* assault. Remember, this is during that period of the World War, during which we experienced a lull from the exoteric point of view, but during which it is safe to assume that the dark forces were gathering their strength, and meanwhile exploiting every available chink in the defenses of the forces of Light and Love. But to think that Krishnamurti did not have the necessary protection from the Christ, the Devas, and his own Master? No, if he succumbed, then this is a matter of his own karma, regardless of any unusual circumstances that may also apply. I highly recommend the book by Philip Lindsay on the astrology affecting all of this, if you are seriously interested.

it also states that the people who went "with" k, leaving theosophy lost the peace they had whilst believing in the masters. but for me this is inevitable - when you kick the crutch away you have to learn to walk again. also truth doesnt bring comfort it brings understanding and this may lead to a worsening at first, like homeopathy bringing the illness to the surface, as opposed to orthodox medicine sweeping the symptons under the carpet and anaesthetising the host like organised religion...takes breath...bit tired tonight..excuse...

You do not bandage a person's leg, allow the cast to harden, hand a man a crutch, let him walk down the hall, and then immediately take it away again, telling him, "it's time to walk on your own now." This is the problem with what happened. To us, it may seem subjective. To the Masters, it is quite another story. They have known well enough - for 18 million years - when it time for the disciple to learn to walk without crutches. At this stage of things, the Theosophists weren't ready. Certainly they had made a religion out of Krishnaji, given what they all believed. We could argue that 2/3rds of the whole point of being a Theosophists was being missed, as they weren't *thinking for themselves*, but then, neither do the vast majority of Christians. Shall we kick the crutch of Christ out from under the Christian, tell him he must do it on his own, and expect him to limp along to the finish line?

it then goes on to describe how variou devic initiations "ruined" the vehicle i think its saying. also that people could attain his perception instantly instead of many incarnations to earn it, was also seen as unthinkable. but like it says in buddhism what has been mistreated for a long time cannot be cured in day. but for me it was the perception the planting of the seed that was instantaneous, not immediate enlightenment. the seed is then watered, enough light, dark wind etc until the flower opens to face the sun. k saw no reason why like a flower a human could come to the sun without suffering which is so readily worn like a badge to be proud of. this is revolutionary as we assume suiffering to be necessary and therein you may prolong it.

If you can disprove the Wisdom of the Dharma, the Teaching of the Tathagatas, then you've definitely stumbled upon something that no one else has.

You may believe anything you like, but here is where we'll just have to agree to disagree. Show me a human being who doesn't suffer, and I'll sell you some beachfront property in Wyoming.

Do we need to needlessly suffer? No. This is where I'll agree. And I think that is part of what Krishnamurti continued to try and help people to realize, for the remaineder of his years. This is one of many things I've been able to gather from his writings, and from hearing his lectures on video and audio tape. I have several of the latter, and I did watch one of the videos you linked (elsewhere) from google. Krishnamurti's contributions were tremendous! I do not say we should toss the baby out with the bathwater. Since when was Truth black and white? Since when must me swallow whole what any teacher presents, or else reject entirely those useful and valid points, simply because we do not agree with all that is said. And in the last analysis, since when must we agree with something, in order for it to be true?

it then mentions how anyone can be a vehicle for the lord if they love him enough, really just justifying how they can channel his thoughts.. i think.

I'll stake my life on this, any day.

Peace ...

~Zagreus

 

[chakraman]

hi zag,
thanks for your reply. i assume you use more than 1 finger to type. i hope they sort out speach recognition soon as this posting takes me ages. i'm not going to debate certain points, altough i feel i could adequately agree, refute or conceptually disprove points i know you can do likewise. i think we may be getting lost in the words; i think its possible to prove or disprove anything psychologically or psychically speaking. i would like to get beyond the verbal though i'm not sure i can.
i suppose essentially i feel i have come across an understanding that i feel is revolutionary and that i would wish you and others to share this with me - similar to your wishes i imagine and other religious folk. i am a student yet i seek to teach or unlearn.
how are we going to find the truth in this matter? its an important question because our lives are at stake and as you say we dont want to suffer needlessly. this is why i likes k's teaching so much, because he does'nt give the usual comforting, exploitative or dogmatic advice/method etc. there is no pointing out what truth is just the obstacles which you yourself must remove.
so what are the obstacles; for me it is the backround we look through - the screen of culture, tradition, upbringing, the various conclusions, ideas and desires we have. so to find truth first we must set all this aside and come to the problem afresh without the burden of memory or knowledge which only shape accordingly and so twist. (not practical knowledge but psychological or "spiritual") to desire spiritual growth is therefor a hindrance to it. for me you only talk about adding more obstacles of knowledge etc. yes the master is necessary to show you the door but we must open it. i'm sure you may agree with this but to you the work seems to be the endless accumulation of spiritual knowledge (requiring effort), whilst to me it is seeing the futilty of this (effortless).
i loved it when i read that you cannot search for freedom you cannot gain it or acquire it happens naturally when conflict is understood; so you can only understand the factual reality of conflict which is, whilst freedom is an ideal and therefore not actual. it may have taken a master to point out not feedom but the obstacles, but once understood the truth of it is yours and the master is gone. if its not simple and accesible to all then to me its suspect, and involves the endless dependance on others. we have been led for 2000 years and where has it got us, are we looking to be led for another 2000. pax jase...excuse the preaching!

 

[17th Angel]

There is more space between atoms than, there are atoms.... So there is more nothing than there is someting

 

[chakraman]

alright chap, yeah i read that; the nucleus of an atom is like a pea in a football stadium - so if you take out the empty space in a human your left with a gnat's b0llock. in the thread i discuss the possibility that the nucleus is actually actually a hole in the ether or plenum or space as it is generally understood... i.e. that space or vacuum is actually an energy rich super dense state. so the more mass an object has the more holes in the plenum/space or nothingness it has - so air is denser than metal. thats of course if the physical world actually exists at all, and is not some form of spiritual, psychic or mentally projected phenomenom..maya...illusion. jase

 

[taijasi]

As the Secret Doctrine puts it, "Fohat digs holes in Space." This the creative work of the Holy Spirit (sic), prior to the ensouling of matter via the 2nd Aspect. The physical permanent atom (an electron?) can be positive or negative, in terms of whether it brings force into, or removes it from the physical world, in relation to the astral.

Astral matter, the substance of the emotional plane, includes quarks and subquarks, plus much, much finer - and smaller - particles. And these, two, are the holes in the ether.

The atom of Babbitt (and the Theosophists) is most intriguing to contemplate. I can't recall if you mentioned it earlier, jase, but if you stretch the thing out, it's really composed of 10 rings, or strings - 3 primary and 7 secondary - these being the thermo spirals that are listed in Babbitt's diagram. These are coiled into the shape of a heart, more or less, and it is the combination of these particles which makes up the atom of modern science.

Permanent atoms exist on all Seven of the planes which comprise our Solar System ... from Humanity's point of view. Clairvoyant studies have focused on the physical atoms (electrons, whatever), but less so on the astral and mental permanent atoms, which incredibly smaller. The permanent atoms of the Buddhic and Atmic (Nirvanic) planes are only really significant in the case of an arhat, Master, Bodhisattva, Buddha, etc ... in relation to the Sambhogakaya, or Dharmakaya, for example.

The absolute smallest particles of matter in the System, in occult science, are those of the Monadic and Divine planes, which stand altogether outside the range of human evolution, as the planes wherein the consciousness of the Planetary and Solar Logoi, respectively, may be contacted.

All seven planes, combined, serve as the lowest Cosmic plane (or Cosmic physical), relative to six other Cosmic planes (astral, mental, Buddhic, Nirvanic, Monadic, Divine). Such is taught by the Rosicrucians (vide Max Heindel), Rudolf Steiner and Anthroposophy, as well as by the Theosophists, as per H.P. Blavatsky, Leadbeater, etc. It is also traceable to Vedic, Buddhist, Egyptian teachings, etc., along the lines of the Hermetic Axiom: As above, so below.

Leadbeater even gives a precise number of ultimate permanent atoms (of the Solar Divine plane, highest sub-plane) ... which will be found in the permanent atoms of each, successively lower atomic sub-plane, such that we can COUNT the number of ultimate Divine atoms in a physical permanent atom, for example. It's a damn huge number, if I recall correctly (7 to the 5th or 7th power, something like that). And this is all INSIDE an electron, more or less.

We know that space is mostly empty, and from what I understand about the sub-atomic world, this mostly-emptiness is so - even to the nth degree, incredibly more empty, even. The more we learn about dark matter, and how little of "reality" we actually perceive (even just physical reality), the more the findings of the occultists are proven to be accurate.

I think it would a VAST and bold overstatement, to suggest that, relative to the greater Cosmos, Humanity is able to perceive and comprehend, say ... one small grain of sand out of all the beaches upon planet Earth. In terms of the many kingdoms and types of life, it's like we can see a leaf, a mushroom, a mosquito and a hamster, and we are filling in the blanks relative to the remaining examples of life on Earth. Our laboratory is, as yet, far too small to make such sweeping generalities and draw ultimate conclusions.

I'm just waiting for one of the diehard skeptics at CR (who seem to be coming out of the woodwork of late) to accidentally witness a UFO or something, maybe the materialization of a Mahatma. Granted, we'll never hear about it, or they'll surely chalk it up to hallucination, but by God if I ever catch onto it, I'll have an ear-to-ear grin.

~Zag

 

[17th Angel]

You also believe in UFO's? You have seen one?

 

[Francis king]

although, u do know all the theosophists did was take some hinduism and put a bit of a spin on it for the middle classes in the ignorant west, and that it was rumoured that Leadbetter liked young boys... in the biblical sense... just thought I'd mention it..

 

[taijasi]

although, u do know all the theosophists did was take some hinduism and put a bit of a spin on it for the middle classes in the ignorant west, and that it was rumoured that Leadbetter liked young boys... in the biblical sense... just thought I'd mention it..

Well he was a liberal Catholic priest, ya know ... so that would certainly explain it. What we can we say? Even the occultists, with the best of intentions, get caught up with the wrong crowd sometimes.

As for the Hinduism, yes, it's rather interesting, isn't it Francis? What can you tell us about it? Know much about the Yugas? Are you familiar with the the Indian idea of several levels (and vehicles) of consciousness? You have an interest in one of Master KH's better known incarnations. What do you know of Madhyamika? I'm rather interested in the chittamatrins, myself.

~zag

 

[pfw]

Space is bigger than the biggest thing ever and then some- you might think the walk dow the road to the shop is long but that's nothing compared to space... (appologies to Douglas Adams for that bad misquote). Zagreus, could you recomend any good reading material on Yugas, the Indian idea of levels of conciousness, Madhysamika and Hinduism in general? It sounds interesting enough to look into anyway.