Church loses opt-out fight over gay adoptions

Few questions...

Are Homosexuals allowed to accept christ?

IF SO.....

How many people do you think will be encouraged to join your "train of thought" and belife when you show such hatred..... ?


Forget the questions lol.... This isn't going to go anywhere is it... Just like all other topics.. Two sides debate and debate, but it gets nowhere it changes nothing... I leave on this; There isn't, in honesty, any love in saying that Homosexuals do not deserve to adopt... I don't care what bit of "wisdom" mumbo jumbo you pull out to say otherwise ;) I can see this is hitting on a door where no one is home... Just happy to leave my opinon :D
 
jesus christ came for all sinners, so we might be saved. and we all fall short.
jesus told us to love god and to love others.
jesus also said, let he who is without sin, cast the first stone.
the spirit of christ personally speaks to the hearts of people and asks them to sin no more, and to be holy as god is holy, when they let him in all doors.
because we sin, does not mean we should not love.
but god asks us, when we have accepted the spirit, to not grieve it.
so as humans we are to love each other as god loves us.
and he forgives us, even when we keep sinning, his love and salvation is that great.
but with your personal relationship with god, the spirit of righteousness has already given the answer.
 
Lets get this the right way round, there has never been a problem with adoptive parents being adoptive parents.

What i mean by this is parents by nature are male and female, that's how a child is reproduced, ideally by nature a child has a father and mother, Adoption agencies have always tried to provide this adoptive family enviroment for children.

The law is now been changed, Catholic agencies have not broken the law, have not tried to change that which is clearly according to nature.
They are trying to provide what they truly believe is best for children.

The law has not only been changed to force on children to have an unatural parental upringing, but now adoption agencies which have always run according to the nature of parenthood are now being discrimnated against to have no right to any longer exist.
 
Few questions...
OK

Are Homosexuals allowed to accept christ?
Yes

IF SO.....
How many people do you think will be encouraged to join your "train of thought" and belife when you show such hatred..... ?

Well, two things:
1: I have shown no hatred.
2: If the Catholic schools ethos is anything to go by, then society is brazen in its hypocrisy. Even our illustrious Prime Minister opted to send his son to a Catholic school, presumably on the same principle as everyone else, that 'you got a better quality of education in a Catholic School'.

But perhaps I am wrong in suggesting that Catholic schools should be able to discriminate against those who want only to take, and give nothing back.

Just like all other topics.. Two sides debate and debate, but it gets nowhere it changes nothing... I leave on this; There isn't, in honesty, any love in saying that Homosexuals do not deserve to adopt... I don't care what bit of "wisdom" mumbo jumbo you pull out to say otherwise I can see this is hitting on a door where no one is home... Just happy to leave my opinon

Hi 17th Angel – let's be clear, there isn't, in honesty, any love in saying that homosexuals do or do not deserve to adopt. The question is not about love – and a 'love' that is obliged to say 'yes' soon finds itself the object of contempt.

And when 'wisdom' is considered 'mumbo jumbo' ...

Thomas
 
lol God said so.. God judges... God HAS judged and He WILL judge. I will do everything I can to make sure the laws God put into place from the beginning remain in place til my Lord comes back to rule.. Thats all I can do....

When Dad says no... He means NO. we dont get to ignore Him and not have to deal with His anger.
 
thomas quotes

David Cameron (who's a bit of a dolt, but we wont say that...saying he)... called for a compromise that would give the Catholic agencies time to find a way of dealing with the regulations

-but what he really meant was...let's give them a few years to get their heads around it... its happening, so there...

- then he said- if they dont like it we'll start putting them with gays and force them to mix..."

... you ask, thomas-

Should Catholics be exempt from the new laws? ...(should govt. ) ...Accept the Catholic right to make choices according to its faith, conscience and constitution..?
no, because if u do u'll open the floodgates to chaos- what happens after catholics become exempt? can a ultra zionist factory owner bar arabs and muslims from working in his factory? can green buisnesses fairly sack women who use synthetic-leaches-into-the-water-supply" hair dye because they have contravened the green code? where does it stop?

"well, ur honour, u can't jail me for dragging that black guy down the road attached to my truck because I am in the KKK, and if catholics get away with having their own rules so should we"

"well, ur honour, the Iman told me that killing infidels is a good way to get into heaven"

"well, in the church of the big pink goat we have human sacrifices every full moon, so it's not murder"

as u state "Secular institutions cannot legislate on the Constitution of a religion", but conversely, religious institutions should not be able to wriggle out of submitting to the same laws as everyone else does, and if we are really supposed to live in a democracy, were values like tolerance and equality are to be upheld then we cannot have exceptions...

if it is wrong to be prejudicial about other groups, based on their colour of their skin, their faith, their gender, etc, then anti-discrimination legislation has to encompass all areas of public life, and people should not be able to opt-in to discriminatory practises by virtue of their religious orientation...

I cannot imagine a gay couple going to a catholic angency to adopt children... but what does that suggest about catholics..?

and I can't agree with u when u say that "governance should conform to the principles of Christianity, not the other way round"

- I dont want to live in america, man... I live in Britain. I'm watching whats happening over there, as the christians take over politics, and it frightens me to imagine Britain going the same way...

but that does not mean we should "Outlaw Catholicism"...

you made me laugh when u said- "What about necrophiliacs, can we turn them away? Or paedophiles? Oh, we can, why? Because it offends your principles"

-but that's not the point, is it? necrophilliacs commit a crime when shagging corpses, but only if the corpse or the corpses family havent given permission for the corpse to be abused in such a manner... paedophiles commit crimes against children, yet, as far as I know, being an adult and having sex with another adult isnt a crime, as long as both adults are consenting, etc...

Can religions expect to have their beliefs and lifestyles respected, if they refuse to accept those of other people?

-yes, I respect ur right to think what u like, and live ur life as u choose to, except when ur beliefs and lifestyle choices negatively impact on me. If ur neighbour is having sex with another man, it does not effect u. It does not mean he will be watching ur children through the windows, and fantasising about having sexual intercourse with them. It does not mean that u have to tell ur kids that gay sex isn't a disgusting sin, and that all queers go to hell- u can still tell ur kids what u want them to hear, but I hope that instead u would say "...well, kid, these are the different sides, and u can believe what u want..."

Yes, I appreciate that catholics feel hard done to at this attempt to secularise a christian institution, but I dont think its becuase they believe in the sanctity of marriage, becuase if thats the problem, well, hey, gays can get married too, although alas, not in a catholic church...

you say that" ...The central issue of the Abrahamic debate it that the principle of the family unit corresponds to a universal paradigm that underwrites the whole created order, and is exemplified, in the human case, by the coming together of man and woman to produce a child – and by the two and the three united in love...

yet jesus never married, or had sex, and was born of a virgin, priests and nuns do not pair off and procreate, so it can't just be about marriage or as u say, the abrahamic tradition of buying and selling women (sorry, marriage and family life)...

male and female, he created them, in his image, and if god did this, then god too must be man and woman, right? but ...really..? could we not instead interpret God to be genderless, neither male or famale, not a marriage of opposites, but a totality?

we'll never get to live in a star trek multispecies intergalactic democracy if we don't...
 
Hi Francis –

I asked:
Should Catholics be exempt from the new laws? ...

Your reply:
no... because if u do u'll open the floodgates to chaos
So what do we do, ban all change? No. Again ... a call to reason ... and there is no link between a Catholic agency's abiding by its constitution, and chaos.

The Archbishop of Canterbury, Dr Rowan Williams, has said he would like to see "more serious debate" on limits to the "state's power to control and determine the actions of voluntary bodies within it, in pursuit of what are quite proper goals of non-discrimination".

Ann Widdecombe, the former Home Office minister and herself a Christian, has voiced her support for an exemption: "It's one thing to say that gay people can adopt and quite another to say they must be able to adopt from a specific agency.

"It's like saying someone not only has the right to have an abortion but they also have the right to demand an abortion from a specific doctor, regardless of that doctor's freedom of conscience."

An excellent point, I think.

+++

You say:
yes, I respect ur right to think what u like, and live ur life as u choose to, except when ur beliefs and lifestyle choices negatively impact on me.

So you are allowed to infringe the rights of others, but they are not allowed to infringe upon yours?

Here's a thought ... a woman is raped. The rapist is caught, convicted, and demonstrates a complete unrepentence, but delights in his crime. He serves his sentence. The woman works in a shop, and the rapist chooses to shop there. Has she the right to refuse him?

Here's a reality ... a woman was raped by a cab driver. The rapist is caught, but the conviction failed. A year later the woman hails a cab ... it's the same driver ... has she the right to not get in his cab? If she declines, she is infringing his rights as an individual by discriminating against someone who was tried and found not guilty. He can take her to court.

I'm not trying to be trick ... I'm saying its not as cut and dried as you would have it.

This is the crux of the issue, which I hold is a self-serving argument, and one that is not upheld by law – laws are not decided by what individuals like or dislike, laws are decided for the good of society as a whole. The individual is subject to the state, the state is not subject to the individual, otherwise we surely would have chaos ...

In Scotland, recent legislation for the first time allowed gay couples to adopt. However, faith-based agencies can vet potential adopters based on their sexuality. Despite accusations of discrimination, the Scottish Executive insists faith-based adoption agencies must be allowed an opt-out, and is in constant contact with Westminster to try to stop the new laws.

Does the Catholic Church have the right to refuse to carry out a gay wedding? Under the law, providing for 'goods and services' – a Catholic priest will be obliged to marry a gay couple, and be sure they'll be those who wish to force the point to see it through.

"well, in the church of the big pink goat we have human sacrifices every full moon, so it's not murder"
This is not helping the argument.

if it is wrong to be prejudicial about other groups, based on their colour of their skin, their faith, their gender, etc, then anti-discrimination legislation has to encompass all areas of public life, and people should not be able to opt-in to discriminatory practises by virtue of their religious orientation...
But are we not being discriminated against, by your own admission?

I cannot imagine a gay couple going to a catholic angency to adopt children... but what does that suggest about catholics..?
It suggests that it is well known that Catholics have a view on the matter which does not coincide with the gay couple's view.

The question might well be why would a gay couple seek to adopt from a Catholic agency in the first place?

I don't know why.

I do know that Catholic parents have difficulties getting their children into catholic schools because they are very oversubscribed, by a significant number of people who are not Catholic, don't believe a word of it, but who believe that the quality of education is better – and they want the best for their kids.

Should a Catholic school be able to discriminate between those who uphold the ethos, and those who don't, but seek to benefit by it? It's a very real problem – in short we are not allowed to point out hypocricy when faced with it.

- I dont want to live in america, man... I live in Britain. I'm watching whats happening over there, as the christians take over politics, and it frightens me to imagine Britain going the same way...
More scaremongering.

paedophiles commit crimes against children, yet, as far as I know, being an adult and having sex with another adult isnt a crime, as long as both adults are consenting, etc...
What has consenting adults to do with it. You seem to think the issue revolves aroud sex – it doesn't.

Can religions expect to have their beliefs and lifestyles respected, if they refuse to accept those of other people?
I don't know, am I obliged to respect yours, when you patently don't respect mine?

but I hope that instead u would say "...well, kid, these are the different sides, and u can believe what u want..."
You can believe what you want ... but you cannot live according to your beliefs ... not so easy an issue, is it?

In fact I have raised my children, who are not Catholic (the choice is theirs), to live according to their conscience. That will no longer suffice, it would appear.

... yet jesus never married, or had sex, and was born of a virgin, priests and nuns do not pair off and procreate, so it can't just be about marriage or as u say, the abrahamic tradition of buying and selling women (sorry, marriage and family life)...
It's not about marriage ... and the fact that we no longer buy and sell our women suggests we are not closed to reason.

But, then again, you do support a culture that sees nothing wrong with the sale of women, according to the flourishing trade in wives from the Philippines ...

we'll never get to live in a star trek multispecies intergalactic democracy if we don't...
But does your 'multispecies intergalactic democracy' mean everyone in the galaxy thinks the same way you do?

+++

It's not whether or not, it's the dreadful lack of informed debate that I argue against. If we lose, then we lose, and we will shut down. But let us lose for the right reason, and not for scaremongering, rumour and unreason.

Thomas
 
Hmm
upset politicians and homosexuals or upset God. Think if I was Catholic church Id continue with business as usual and ignore the politicians and keep adopting the way I had been.
 
Dor said:
Hmm
upset politicians and homosexuals or upset God. Think if I was Catholic church Id continue with business as usual and ignore the politicians and keep adopting the way I had been.
Click to expand...

I'm with you on this one. But here's a dilemma, in fact it's a situation that I know about: Two women living in a lesbian relationship have been jointly caring for the children of one of the women for many years. Should the mother's partner be able to legally adopt so that the children would not be taken away, if something should happen to the biological mother?

As for a gay couple adopting a child that has no biological relationship to either partner, I would say that the adoption agency should select adopting parents on the basis of the best interests of the child. Some people applying for adoption in this country have been rejected because they were over weight and so considered unable to provide the optimum caring environment for the child. Surely there is widespread agreement that having both a male and a female parent will provide the optimum environment for the child, and therefore it is not discrimination against homosexuals, it is simply putting the child's needs first.
 
As a Christian I uphold the laws of the land because I honor my God that way.. but the line is crossed when the laws of the land go against the laws of my God.
 
Faithfulservant said:
As a Christian I uphold the laws of the land because I honor my God that way.. but the line is crossed when the laws of the land go against the laws of my God.
Click to expand...

I think you may have chosen the right name for yourself. Way to go!
 
I would say yes, the woman has the right to refuse to serve the man, and the woman also has the choice not to get into the taxi...

if the state does not serve the individual, then we do not live in a democracy... for the individual to take orders from the state without being involved in the creation of those orders means we instead are living under some kind of feudal or totalitarian system...

I said- I cannot imagine a gay couple going to a catholic angency to adopt children... but what does that suggest about catholics..?

and u said- "It suggests that it is well known that Catholics have a view on the matter which does not coincide with the gay couple's view".

which is the crux of the matter, really, isn't it?

I, incidentally, was brought up by a collection of fine men and women, and some of them were gay, and some of them were sinners. They didnt try to turn me onto gayness, and they didnt want to initiate me into the world of lesbianism. Some of the hetero's were adulterers, some of them were drunks, some of them were married with kids. I loved them all. As an adult, I value them all the more.

u asked- why would a gay couple seek to adopt from a Catholic agency in the first place?, and u said u didnt know why...

yeah, u do, really, but u can't say... so I will...

they might have been brought up catholics... ! or, they might just belong to agencies like stonewall, and be deliberately provocative... but not all gay ppl are rampant politico's, u know, in much the same way not all catholic priests like to bugger children...

yes, catholic schools are considered to have a better standard of education, but only by the aspiring middle classes, who think their children are too special to go to the local underfunded comprehensive...

"Should a Catholic school be able to discriminate between those who uphold the ethos, and those who don't, but seek to benefit by it?"

in an ideal world we would not have seperate schools for seperate faith groups... what does religion have to do with IT skills, grammar, engineering?

I am cheered to discover though that u have brought ur kids up to live according to their consciences, and believe me, that more than suffices...

I don't know where u got the "But, then again, you do support a culture that sees nothing wrong with the sale of women, according to the flourishing trade in wives from the Philippines ..."...

erm... I dont have a wife, and she's not from the phillipines... nobody I know has ever bought a wife, and they are highly unlikely to.... dont know why u threw that one in....

does my 'multispecies intergalactic democracy' mean everyone in the galaxy thinks the same way you do?

no, it doesn't... how boring would that be..? A million zillion little me's running round... scarey...

thomas, I'm not attacking u, personally... u seem like a decent enough sort, 9even if u are a staunch catholic)... left footers are supposed to be a bit more rebellious, u know, its in our history...
 
thomas, I'm not attacking u, personally...

No offence taken, and none intended.

It's all to do with perceptions .... my 16yo turned round a couple of weeks ago when we were watching an episode of "Waking the Dead" (TV police series) which figured an Opus Dei member involved in a dodgy bank deal (hint towards 'the vatican banker' found hanged under Blackfriars Bridge) – OK, but the Opus Dei guy was a flogging himself before the crucifix ... 'why is it,' she asked, 'that in the last few TV programmes that has a Catholic character, they're always nutters?' - a couple of weeks before a Catholic convent was portrayed with mad nuns and more flogging ... Catholics are rarely portrayed these days as anything other than flaggelants or otherwise sexually deviant, and that's the image you meet with when you talk to people.

Thomas
 
suppose I should have added- not attacking catholics either! most of the catholics I know are more likely to be flogging summat for charity on ebay than flogging themselves...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top