lunamoth
Episcopalian
Lol! I thought Mark's quip about crumbs from the Master's table was pretty good though.
The Self-Sacrifice of Jesus
- Thread starter lunamoth
- Start date
Lol! I thought Mark's quip about crumbs from the Master's table was pretty good though.
flowperson
Oannes
White, whole wheat , or rye ?
flow....
flow....
Paladin
Purchased Bewilderment
You're a much better Bible scholar than I am, you're also smarter and more widely read. I'm just throwing my little tuppence into the hat; not trying to convince you of Christianity in any flavor. I didn't know that was the point of your question to begin with.
You've got tuppence? And there are breadcrumbs available? Hmmmm.
Artist: Lyrics
Song: Feed The Birds Lyrics
Mary Poppins:
Early each day to the steps of Saint Paul's
The little old bird woman comes
In her own special way to the people she call,
"Come, buy my bags full of crumbs
Come feed the little birds,
Show them you care
And you'll be glad if you do
Their young ones are hungry
Their nests are so bare
All it takes is tuppence from you
Feed the birds, tuppence a bag
Tuppence, tuppence, tuppence a bag
Feed the birds," that's what she cries
While overhead, her birds fill the skies
All around the cathedral the saints and apostles
Look down as she sells her wares
Although you can't see it,
You know they are smiling
Each time someone shows that he cares
Though her words are simple and few
Listen, listen, she's calling to you
"Feed the birds, tuppence a bag
Tuppence, tuppence, tuppence a bag"
Though her words are simple and few
Listen, listen, she's calling to you
"Feed the birds, tuppence a bag
Tuppence, tuppence, tuppence a bag"
lunamoth
Episcopalian
flowperson
Oannes
But the person who has to wipe that 'smile' off the saints and apostles...
I doubt he is pleased as the tuppence of crumbs passes through the digestive tract of the pigeons and ends up coating the building he has to maintaine...
.....
I would say that He, the divine part, was sent and He, the human part was willing because He submitted to G-d's will.
IMO It was necessary that He died, maybe not necessary that He died so violently.
Amen!
To think that the G-d of the universe spent 9 month in a womb.
I do - absolutely!
I don't either. I don't think G-d sets us up or shames us.
Your thoughts?
Well while it doesn't settle anything theologically, thought I'd get that Richard Smoley quote right from his book, "Inner Christianity"
In speaking of the theory of vicarious atonement he said:
"There is a certain sublimity to this doctrine, but what, in the end, is it trying to say? That the human race so irked the Supreme Being by trespassing a minor command that it was completely alienated from him, and that God's wrath could be quenched only by having a part of himself come down and offer itself as a sacrifice to another part? Put this way, the absurdity of this doctrine becomes apparent."
He goes on in that same portion of his book to point out that the doctrine of vicarious atonement was more or less unknown to the early Christian church becoming official doctrine only in the 11th century. take care, earl
In speaking of the theory of vicarious atonement he said:
"There is a certain sublimity to this doctrine, but what, in the end, is it trying to say? That the human race so irked the Supreme Being by trespassing a minor command that it was completely alienated from him, and that God's wrath could be quenched only by having a part of himself come down and offer itself as a sacrifice to another part? Put this way, the absurdity of this doctrine becomes apparent."
He goes on in that same portion of his book to point out that the doctrine of vicarious atonement was more or less unknown to the early Christian church becoming official doctrine only in the 11th century. take care, earl
China Cat Sunflower
Nimrod
- Messages
- 2,924
- Reaction score
- 13
- Points
- 0
O.K., so...is Jesus' death making the world a better place? Is it having any cumulative, positive effect? What has it accomplished?
If we're going to give up the idea of hell, shouldn't we also dispense with the idea of heaven? I mean heaven as a place where people go after they die. If hell is simplistic and silly, isn't heaven?
What about the Kingdom of God here on earth? It seems to me that the thrust of Christ's philosophy is creating, or manifesting the Kingdom here, first in our hearts, and then, by extension, physically. This seems a very Jewish concept, and ties in nicely with the whole "spirit of the Law" thing. In terms of religion and spirituality, I find that, for myself anyway, this is all I'm really interested in. How to bring about God's Kingdom here on earth: Here and Now. It makes all the diverse elements of Christianity, Jewish and Greek, make sense. But I can't contemplate it without giving up the easy outs of heaven and hell. Does that sound like whack?
Chris
If we're going to give up the idea of hell, shouldn't we also dispense with the idea of heaven? I mean heaven as a place where people go after they die. If hell is simplistic and silly, isn't heaven?
What about the Kingdom of God here on earth? It seems to me that the thrust of Christ's philosophy is creating, or manifesting the Kingdom here, first in our hearts, and then, by extension, physically. This seems a very Jewish concept, and ties in nicely with the whole "spirit of the Law" thing. In terms of religion and spirituality, I find that, for myself anyway, this is all I'm really interested in. How to bring about God's Kingdom here on earth: Here and Now. It makes all the diverse elements of Christianity, Jewish and Greek, make sense. But I can't contemplate it without giving up the easy outs of heaven and hell. Does that sound like whack?
Chris
lunamoth
Episcopalian
I believe (trust) the Incarnation, so yes that's implicit in what I said as well.
Death is part of our life and yes, His life, death, and resurrection...it's all the Way.
For the most part I just can't get into the penal-substitutionary theology of redemption. As earl pointed out it's a late (16th century) doctrinal development and it's heavy Calvinistic emphasis on guilt just does not speak to me. Themes of healing our relationship with God and each other, healing our brokenness, restoring us, feeding us, liberating us,...those are themes that speak to me. I can't see any reason to prefer a judgemental-law-penal theme over these. Reading a bit more about the history of the development of the penal theology I did come across this one bread crumb I find nourishing:
[I said:
See, all of these (theories of atonement) are the ideas of humans looking back and finding meaning in the cross. As Thomas said in the Atonement thread, it is, ultimately, Mystery. I simply trust that through Christ's life, death, and resurrection, mankind's relationship with God has been restored. In the catechism of my church, this is what is said:
I love that.
In my own way of thinking, as I've followed various breadcrumbs so far, in the Garden we became alienated from God when we began to know good and evil. The good and evil just are...life just is...but it is our judgment of each other, ourselves, creation, and God which leads us out of the Garden and to alienation from God and each other. Knowing good and evil, judging, is the way out. Not judging (aka grace, forgiveness) is the way in, it is the way of the Kingdom of God. Jesus was the perfect example, and enabler, of this way. The way of love. Judgement leads us out of the garden, love (forgiveness, grace) leads us back 'in.' The funny thing is, in reality we are already there...we just need to see it.
When Jesus looked from the cross to the thief hanging next to Him, and said "today you will be with me in Paradise," it was not because of anything the thief knew or did or said...it was because of Jesus' perfect love and perfect unity with that thief. We are all the thief.
Thanks for asking.
lunamoth
Episcopalian
Maybe you are asking that eternal question of Christian theology...did Jesus's death change something or did it reveal something eternal? Stated by Martin Kahler (German theologian, 1898): "Did Christ just make known some insights concerning an unchangeable situation--or did he establish a new situation?"
Since liberals solve things by consensus, let's do a poll!
But seriously, there is no clear answer across all theology but some flavors of Christianity perfer one strongly over the other.
BTW, I don't know if my views qualify me as a 'liberal' or not, but I would not say that the liberal way is to decide by consensus. The liberal way, or my way at least, is to be open-minded and to learn to be comfortable with uncertainty, while at the same time trusting in God.
Both ideas are simplistic, but not silly. I find them useful when I think of them as distance from or closeness to God. As for the afterlife, I tend toward universalism which for me takes the fear and desire motivations off the table. Salvation is for now, and it is for everyone.
The Kingdom of God is here. It's not something you 'build,' but it is something you can know and 'see.' You step into it when you accept Christ's invitation to see and do things differently, to love and forgive. Easy? No. Maybe that's why it's called the narrow path.
Seems like a pretty good choice for something to be interested in. I'm not sure why you can't separate it from heaven and hell though...can you explain?
Ah, I need me some Isaiah:
6 "Is not this the kind of fasting I have chosen:
to loose the chains of injustice
and untie the cords of the yoke,
to set the oppressed free
and break every yoke?
7 Is it not to share your food with the hungry
and to provide the poor wanderer with shelter—
when you see the naked, to clothe him,
and not to turn away from your own flesh and blood?
8 Then your light will break forth like the dawn,
and your healing will quickly appear;
then your righteousness [a] will go before you,
and the glory of the LORD will be your rear guard.
9 Then you will call, and the LORD will answer;
you will cry for help, and he will say: Here am I.
"If you do away with the yoke of oppression,
with the pointing finger and malicious talk,
10 and if you spend yourselves in behalf of the hungry
and satisfy the needs of the oppressed,
then your light will rise in the darkness,
and your night will become like the noonday.
What is the Sermon on the Mount? An commandment to follow the letter of the law more closely or more stringently? Or an invitation to do things differently, choose the narrow way, choose to forgive, love, and not throw others away carelessly?
I understand. I don't take as heavy an emphasis as the Calvanists (from my understanding) on guilt. Rather, on freedom from guilt. I accept my guilt of original sin. Maybe that's the difference. I don't dwell on it, but on the redemption of Christ's sacrifice. In other words, I glory in Christ's resurection (sp), versus His death. And, just because we have record of it from the 16th century, doesn't mean it wasn't dwelt on before that.
See, all of these (theories of atonement) are the ideas of humans looking back and finding meaning in the cross. As Thomas said in the Atonement thread, it is, ultimately, Mystery. I simply trust that through Christ's life, death, and resurrection, mankind's relationship with God has been restored.
When Jesus looked from the cross to the thief hanging next to Him, and said "today you will be with me in Paradise," it was not because of anything the thief knew or did or said...it was because of Jesus' perfect love and perfect unity with that thief. We are all the thief.
Thanks for asking.
I agree. And, of course, we can only look back...
Sometimes it takes a long time for something to become official...
YES!
We should not give up the idea of Hell.
IMO It IS a Jewish concept!
Don't give up the concepts of Heaven and Hell...(IMO)
Hi Everyone--followed the trail of breadcrumbs here--
I decided to make use of my present insomnia to catch up on some reading. I have been trying to get through the study on theories of atonement, but it is no easy thing for me because it appears that before I can discern between the doctrines, I need to define and sort out the differences between the theories of The Fall, Original Sin, and Total Depravity. I didn't realize until just recently that there was so much difference, especially between the first two. Initially, it looks like splitting hairs.
But thanks to you guys on this thread (and others elsewhere--in particular, Thomas and path_of_one), I am learning to put those fine lines under a magnifying glass.
Chris and Prober, I find your questions invaluable. And Laurie--I do so appreciate your efforts. The material you have posted here has contributed so much to my understanding. Some things, like posting from the catechism (LOL--"catechism"--old Baptist reading here...does not compute....does not compute...sputter, sputter, cough) have helped tremendously!
I just wanted to stop in and say "thank you".
InPeace,
InLove
I decided to make use of my present insomnia to catch up on some reading. I have been trying to get through the study on theories of atonement, but it is no easy thing for me because it appears that before I can discern between the doctrines, I need to define and sort out the differences between the theories of The Fall, Original Sin, and Total Depravity. I didn't realize until just recently that there was so much difference, especially between the first two. Initially, it looks like splitting hairs.
But thanks to you guys on this thread (and others elsewhere--in particular, Thomas and path_of_one), I am learning to put those fine lines under a magnifying glass.
Chris and Prober, I find your questions invaluable. And Laurie--I do so appreciate your efforts. The material you have posted here has contributed so much to my understanding. Some things, like posting from the catechism (LOL--"catechism"--old Baptist reading here...does not compute....does not compute...sputter, sputter, cough
) have helped tremendously! I just wanted to stop in and say "thank you".
InPeace,
InLove
Hello again--
Just typed in "Baptist" and "catechism". Hmmm...appears I didn't pay enough attention? Apparently there is at least one! Maybe we just didn't use that particular term where I have had memberships. But I was in the Girl's Auxiliary, even helped out in Awanas and VBS, attended Sunday School and taught in the Children's Church. Never heard the word applied to the teachings before!
Learning...about myself?
Anyway, back to the theme of the thread (don't mean to derail it--just needed to clarify...something...???)
InPeace,
InLove
Just typed in "Baptist" and "catechism". Hmmm...appears I didn't pay enough attention? Apparently there is at least one!
Maybe we just didn't use that particular term where I have had memberships. But I was in the Girl's Auxiliary, even helped out in Awanas and VBS, attended Sunday School and taught in the Children's Church. Never heard the word applied to the teachings before! Learning...about myself?
Anyway, back to the theme of the thread (don't mean to derail it--just needed to clarify...something...???
)InPeace,
InLove