What is pride and why is it bad?

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Cage

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I'd like to think that having pride in one's self is what God intended. He created us in his image after all, but it would seem that many view pride to be an awful sin. Are there different types of pride? (Some good, some bad) Or is all pride looked down upon by our creator?

I have pride in my self, or a self respect derived from what I have managed to accomplish in life...the man I am today measured against ther man I was yesterday. I realize that w/o G-d I would still be neck deep in poo, but I played a role in my ascension as well. I'd personally like to take at least some of the credit, lol.

Is that wrong? If so, why?
 
Pride is such a decieving sin. It causes you to think too much of yourself, when the truth is, you shouldnt be so self absorbed or self-centered. There are two common expressions of pride - one for strong people and the other for weak people. The expression of pride for strong willed people is boasting and the expression of pride for weaker minded persons is self-pitty. I think the remedy for pride is humily and taking your mind off of yourself and placing it on someone worthy of all adoration glory - namely, the Glory of God in Christ. I think having a relationship with Him will cause one to have the proper out look on life - namely to love God first and foremost, and out of that love for God will come a proper love for everyone else. Until man is in Christ, he will always be trapped in his prison of self.
 
Perhaps balance is needed when approaching issues of pride, then? I'd like to think my creator would want me to be pleased with who I am in him. Our acomplishments, our talants, our gifts are all through G-d, but don't we play a part as well, silas?

I think that if we become so prideful that we forget our place, or place ourselves high against those who have been given less, or when we let our pride harm us emotionally, it becomes sinful; but pride in who we are isn't nescessarily a bad thing, is it?

Lets be realistic, if we are to think so little of ourselves when we are made in G-d's image, don't we then begin to think little of our creators creation? I think balance is key, and I'm tired of feeling bad for feeling good about what I have acomplished in this life.

What is humility, anyway? Isn't it knowing that w/o G-d we can do nothing worthwhile? Isn't it not placing ourselves above others? Isn't it knowing that all are equal in the eyes of our creator, and knowing that the sun shines, and the rains falls on just and unjust alike. When I make mistakes, they are my own, but when I do something worthy, am I required to neglect the part I played in that acomplishment altogether?

I don't know, Silas...I think certain types of pride can be a good thing sometimes...


James
 
I would hazard to guess (and I say hazard as the tanks are most likely ready to roll....) that it isn't being proud or pride that is the problem but prideful.

Tis the extremes that always tend to get us in trouble.

G-d's gifts are power, wisdom, love, faith, zeal, life, strength, understanding, will, order and renunciation...all used in concert wonderful things to be 'proud' of, used in excess or wrongfully issues arise...
 
Hi James, Hi Silas

the irony of moving past ourselves and giving ourselves so completely to God we can mirror St. Pauls remark that "Christ Liveth me" is that a healthy sense of self has to be in place first. Why? Well, when there are issues like Silas alluded to we spend all our time either in self aggrandizement or bemoaning our emotional wounds.

Peace
Mark
 
What does it mean to be "prideful", then? If there is a healthy sense of pride, where then do we cross the line into being prideful in an unhealthy sense?

paladin, I'll have to look up aggrandizement and bemoaning before I fully understand your post...forgive me, lol. I have a limited education. :)


James
 
James,

I think that being prideful is a matter of "intent." The closer we walk with Christ, the more aware we are of our shortcomings, or character defects. This being true, if we are honest with ourselves over why we do what we do, and what our intent is, it becomes clear if we are acting out of mere respect for ourselves or building up our ego.
BTW, I use a little trick for words I'm not familiar with. I highlight the words and right click. a little window pops up and allows me to look up the word on Merriam Webster's online dictionary :)

Peace
Mark
 
Paladin said:
James,

I think that being prideful is a matter of "intent." The closer we walk with Christ, the more aware we are of our shortcomings, or character defects. This being true, if we are honest with ourselves over why we do what we do, and what our intent is, it becomes clear if we are acting out of mere respect for ourselves or building up our ego.
BTW, I use a little trick for words I'm not familiar with. I highlight the words and right click. a little window pops up and allows me to look up the word on Merriam Webster's online dictionary :)

Peace
Mark
Click to expand...

Thanks for the tip, haha! I got it now, paladin...

As far as intent go's, aren't we all our own individual? The things we do, say, how we act, and how we present ourselves to others derive from our character. Is it wrong to highlight a few things to others, or try to be an example, or find pleasure in a project, then share it? I'd say that none are in perfect "intent" whatever that may be.

All we can do is be who we are on any given day, man. None are perfect, nor will we ever be, imo. I enjoy seeing people have pride in themselves, in what they have done, or in what they do. When I see this, I see a person satisfied with who they are, and it makes me happy.


James
 
Cage said:
Perhaps balance is needed when approaching issues of pride, then? I'd like to think my creator would want me to be pleased with who I am in him. Our acomplishments, our talants, our gifts are all through G-d, but don't we play a part as well, silas?

I think that if we become so prideful that we forget our place, or place ourselves high against those who have been given less, or when we let our pride harm us emotionally, it becomes sinful; but pride in who we are isn't nescessarily a bad thing, is it?

Lets be realistic, if we are to think so little of ourselves when we are made in G-d's image, don't we then begin to think little of our creators creation? I think balance is key, and I'm tired of feeling bad for feeling good about what I have acomplished in this life.

What is humility, anyway? Isn't it knowing that w/o G-d we can do nothing worthwhile? Isn't it not placing ourselves above others? Isn't it knowing that all are equal in the eyes of our creator, and knowing that the sun shines, and the rains falls on just and unjust alike. When I make mistakes, they are my own, but when I do something worthy, am I required to neglect the part I played in that acomplishment altogether?

I don't know, Silas...I think certain types of pride can be a good thing sometimes...


James
Click to expand...

I agree with you that certain types of pride can be a good thing. I was talking in terms of boasting and self-pitty, which arent good things.
 
Cage said:
I realize that w/o G-d I would still be neck deep in poo, but I played a role in my ascension as well. I'd personally like to take at least some of the credit, lol.
Click to expand...

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

If Jesus having already died on the cross and been raised said that he had not ascended yet, then how is it that self-professed born again Christians claim ascension? Perhaps John 20:17 is one of those anti-Trinitarian, anti-Deity verses that gets missed due to... pride? I am uncertain if you are claiming to have ascended Cage but it came close. I imagine if and when you do, that you necessarily had a part in it.
 
Not the same type of ascension, haha. Sorry if you took it that way, cyberpi. I meant out of the muck I was once in. I'm still here on earth like you, there's still muck around, but I'm not in the dire straits I once was. ( Completely Lost)

I see some divinity in Christ, and I see good stuff in certain types of pride. Would you argue that self esteem is wrong? I understand arrogance, boastfulness, self pity that can lead to violence, but a balanced level of pride can be a good thing, imo.

Or did I miss your point altogether, lol.


James
 
Cage, I am the ego, and I do not view self-esteem as pride. I draw the word ego from the bible, from what I have read of western psychology, and from the Greek word where it came from. While translation and time has caused the word ego to mean pride or a lack of humility or humbleness, as in Buddhism for example, I recognize that behind the part of this mind that I do see is the real me. A deep comfort, peace, and self-esteem that comes from that self-awareness and from a relationship with others including God or Jesus is not, in my opinion, pride. I think it is just the evolving definition of words that bug me, but I can use the word both ways.

In Western psychology when I see that picture of the iceberg: I am behind the part that is conscious and above water, that sees and willfully acts. The rest is a part of the brain that I can not see and / or have little control of yet. The automatic knee jerk reactions that first occurs before I realize that something exists is not mine, but in seeing and learning to control it then it becomes mine... just as the computer that buzzes in front of me on its own is not mine but when I develop that symmetry with it that comes from making files and folders or learning how to use it, then it becomes mine. Behind the self-esteem is some form of awareness of what I 'will' or cause, which may or may not be accurate. Therein lies the pickle. I see God acting through people and that changed the equation... what does a person claim as theirs? Determining the accuracy amounts to determining responsibility and therein exists much within all religion and law.

I see that pride can blind a person as many emotions or addictions do... like anger, or paranoia, or sorrow,... but when is it a SIN? I agree with others that intent is always the key. A person does many things that is bad for the body or health, like not washing their hands before dinner, but I agree with Paladin and others that it is the intent. There might not be intent... it might be a person blind to it or a person truly seeking help. Another viewpoint: if there is SIN behind self-evaluation, which is behind pride, it is this: by design people can not see themselves as clearly as one might imagine, whereas a neighbor can see things that a person can not. So rather than self-evaluate, why not be vulnerable and ask the neighbor how he evaluates it? For example, why seek self-judgement when you can seek God's judgement? In this way it is maybe a SIN from NOT doing something. But, does a person realize it or intend it?

It is one thing to say that a person should not have an inflated self-esteem or emotions, but I do consider it a SIN to ask others to hide it. I do NOT consider it a SIN to ask others to check it and learn from it. A low self-esteem or a high self-esteem resulting from self evaluation is often real. Since I can not truly see a person's intent or motivation I think that it is best to only tell a person when you think they are not hearing or seeing something due to pride. When a person is extremely self-depricating or self-elevating, try to reveal to the person that there are many other things in the world that they have not learned or considered yet in their self evaluation. Or point out the frailty of self-evaluation. But when a dog or a cat comes up to me and asks to be petted, sometime I do just pet it and move on. It is kind of like the person asking for charity... it is really no help to them to give them only money, but that is what they are asking for. But if a person tells me pridefully that they did something, have something, or know something then I do tend to ask why they assume credit, keep it as theirs, and don't give it to others.
 
Nice post, and thank you...but now comes the questions of, Who are we to judge anothers intent? Who are we to deem a person prideful? Who are we to make such negative judgements about anothers character when we have no idea of the intent behind thier actions?

I think when we do this, we ourselves place self above, or in a higher light than the persons we are judging; wouldn't you agree? If so, it would never be appropriate to directly insinuate that one is being prideful, would it?

Then, there are times when credit is ours alone, but most would only allow themselves to blame self for mistakes. Why then is it wrong to take sole credit on an achievement?

My cousin worked his way through college, he paid for every hour, every book, every meal, and graduated with honors. He worked hard throughout his life, and it has paid off. This was his acomplishment and by the grace of G-d.

His character can be in part credited to his upbringing, but his efforts, and sheer determination to graduate are his own. If he doesn't feel pride in that, and share his experience with others, then I think he would be in fault, as he can/could be a shining example of dedication, and will to another. If he can do it, then so can anyone else.

What is ego if not that which makes one feel superior, or that which brings on self pity? I know my cousin doesn't feel superior to anyone, and views each individual with love and compassion. He understands that we are all the same; we go thru the same trials, we make the same mistakes, and he understands that we all share a very ugly world at times.

Many have not achieved what my cousin has achieved, yet our victories are no less worthy than his own. I have pride knowing my strengths, and in this I find confidence in self. Just knowing that "I can" makes the difference, I think. If I viewed life in "I cant's" then I have lost before I even begin to take on a challange.

To have faith in G-d does not mean lack of faith in self. To realize that many things play a part in ones victories is ideal, but sometimes people need to allow themselves room to acknowledge the role self plays in what they become.


James
 
James,

Not to put too fine a point on it, but the ego as Cyberpi defines it is our sense of self, as subject. Pride then is a function of ego and so is the interaction with "others" I agree we cannot know anothers intent or motivation entirely only a few clues based on observable behavior. That is why in good communication and relationship skills we are taught to remark on the behavior as object and how we respond to that behavior as subjective experience.
A handy model for this interaction is the Johari window. The caveat here is that it is a limited model, and by no means definitive, but can at least serve as common ground for discussion.
Check it out here: Johari Window

Therefore Pride doesn't have a quality of good or bad unless our subjective experience of it fits that criteria. In other words our imputed criteria.
In a pedagogical sense Pride bad- humility good does indeed work but soon we begin to ask questions as you have posed, and provided examples for. It is then we need a more andragogical model to work with.


Peace
Mark
 
Cage said:
Who are we to judge anothers intent?
Click to expand...
When there is wreckage on the highway of life and people demanding Justice from each other then intent and motivation in court is brought out by testimony, witness and evidence of actions. For what it is worth you can ask a person their intent or see the fruit of their actions. I think you can judge the fruit that someone's intent (or lack of) causes. With other emotions, if someone breaks out into tears and tells me that I hurt them, or gets angry at me and raises a fist, who am I to judge their intent? Maybe it is a reaction to something that I truly did, or an actor or actress trying to con me, children being manipulative, or a derainged person, or maybe God is behind it. In some ways I think you have to be gullible. A lie is fuzzy from the truth until you've got more information, so trust and believe it until proven otherwise. Ask questions or for testimony. I think it is like everything... the accumulated evidence is never an absolute proof, but the intent or motivation of someone is revealed in the fruit of someone's actions.

To see pride... sometimes when a person is selectively deaf, rambles on about their achievements, is beneath stooping to elevate others, or beneath serving others, or doesn't see the value of teamwork, then pride might be the culprit.

I had a band teacher who promoted PRIDE... trying to get the members to Practice, take Responsibility, have Initiative, Determination, and Excellence... if I remember the acronym right. I remember the guy next me would bust up laughing every time he pointed to his poster and rattled it off. It seems common verbage in some places to encourage people to take 'pride' in their work. In retrospection I am guessing the band teacher was not Catholic or Buddhist.
 
Thanks to both of you...

I understand the basic premise here, and I understand why good communication skills are needed, but I see no confusion except in the way some things are being defined. Ego (self) is not bad in my mind unless merged with arrogance. (Pride in my mind is simple arrogance)

Arrogance is fairly easy to spot, but this doesn't make it fruitful to judge another based on what we see. I think pride comes into play when we do this, as we put ourselves above that arrogance, and look down on the person in question. When we attribute such negative faculties on someone, we in turn deny them of their own worthy contributions...we shut them out so to speak. There is no fruit from such behavior, only lack of understanding, imo. Besides, none are perfect and to point out anothers shortcomings directly is to deny that we have our own.

I ask the questions I do because I have felt ashamed being pleased with self in the past. I don't like feeling ashamed, and it is futile to try to shame another. These are products of pride, and it goes both ways. To feel shame because of anothers actions or to try to cause shame on purpose both stem from an unhealthy sense of pride. I think it good to bring to mind that which is worthy, but to point fingers directly, and boast is another thing altogether.

I enjoy being my own individual. We are all the same in as much as we are all human, and in this life together. We all have differing strengths, blessings, gifts, awareness, and sense of self, tho. We all have faults, too. Why then is ego (self) viewed as being a bad thing to some unless we are simply raising ourselves above another?


btw, I read and agree with everything you posted, cyberpi


James
 
Cage said:
Thanks to both of you...

I understand the basic premise here, and I understand why good communication skills are needed, but I see no confusion except in the way some things are being defined. Ego (self) is not bad in my mind unless merged with arrogance. (Pride in my mind is simple arrogance)

Arrogance is fairly easy to spot, but this doesn't make it fruitful to judge another based on what we see. I think pride comes into play when we do this, as we put ourselves above that arrogance, and look down on the person in question. When we attribute such negative faculties on someone, we in turn deny them of their own worthy contributions...we shut them out so to speak. There is no fruit from such behavior, only lack of understanding, imo. Besides, none are perfect and to point out anothers shortcomings directly is to deny that we have our own.

I ask the questions I do because I have felt ashamed being pleased with self in the past. I don't like feeling ashamed, and it is futile to try to shame another. These are products of pride, and it goes both ways. To feel shame because of anothers actions or to try to cause shame on purpose both stem from an unhealthy sense of pride. I think it good to bring to mind that which is worthy, but to point fingers directly, and boast is another thing altogether.

I enjoy being my own individual. We are all the same in as much as we are all human, and in this life together. We all have differing strengths, blessings, gifts, awareness, and sense of self, tho. We all have faults, too. Why then is ego (self) viewed as being a bad thing to some unless we are simply raising ourselves above another?


btw, I read and agree with everything you posted, cyberpi


James
Click to expand...

James,

While this is somewhat outside the scope of conventional Christianity, it is addressed by the more mystical sects. Should you begin to study Patristics, you would see a dearth of information on moving past self to merging into God. Clearly, a conventional view of ego reveals nothing out of the ordinary and nothing appears untoward, but a deeper view reveals something quite different.

The mystics, people like Meister Eckhart, St. John of the Cross and even more recently Thomas Merton and Matthew Fox look at ego a little differently. As the last thing that stands between you and God, ego is the false self, the constructed idea of a self apart from God.
I have heard some refer to ego as an acronym: Edging God Out. :)

Peace
Mark
 
Edging G-d out probably speaks more to me about ego than has anything else I've heard in the past, lol. I'll have to look into patristics sometime...maybe it'll wake me up a little, haha

James
 
I think I'm gaining a better understanding of pride and why it is bad/harmful. I was thinking a few minutes ago about how I felt good about self accomplishments, or at least what I viewed to be "Self" accomplishments, but then when someone would disagree with me, it hurt, and that was a product of pride, yes? I think I realize now that allowing yourself to feel pride in what you've done, or what you've gained, or what you 'think' you understand can lead to spiritual damage later and cause offence to ones self.

Even so, a healthy sense of self respect is a must, and that has little to do with pride, imo. Self respect, self esteem, confidence all stem from ones foundation in G-d, and in Christ and nothing can pluck us from this reality once we find our station.


James
 
I don't think it's a question of whether pride is always wrong, or when it is wrong, or whether God wants us to have proud (well, yes He does).

I think's it's a matter of being realistic about who we are as people. God would want us to be realistic.

It's also not about comparing ourselves to others in sense of trying to convince ourselves that we're doing the right thing when we're not. We all have our triumphs and failures and we just need to leave them where they belong. No point blowing myself up like an inflated balloon to look big when someone can just come along and poke a hole in it. The feeling doesn't last forever. Pride can make me sick when I'm not realistic about what makes me proud of myself. It makes me sick when I realise I've deceived myself. Very sick.

Pride involves knowing what belongs to us. Arrogance claims something that isn't your's to own. It's called making a fool of yourself. That's why arrogant people are fools. They are indeed fooling themselves. As it has been said, "thou shalt not covet."
 
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