trinity, again

pfw

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As some will know I've struggled with the trinity concept-mainly because I can't find anything to grasp onto that I understand.

I'd like to present this idea I've had as a discussion point and to find out if I'm any closer.

The trinity is Father, Son and Spirit.

Like Mind, Body and Spirit.

The Mind is nothing without the Body and the Body can't function without the Mind-all of which is (in my belief/view) quickend by the Spirit. All three are seperat 'entities' that (with the possible execption of 'Spirit', but that's not important to this analagy) can't exist or function without the other.

Am I wrong, nearly there or a heratic (see you at the next bonfire...)?
 
Pray about it.

Quit trying to reason it out with logic my friend.. Our natural minds cannot grasp the wonders of the Almighty..

Pray and ask God to reveal to you Himself in all manifestations.

The Spiritual things we understand because of the Holy Spirit..

Carnal things we understand because of the world...

We dont ask the world about Spiritual things :)

The Holy Spirit reveals ALL Truth to those that belong to Christ your ticket on that train has been paid you just have to jump aboard by reading the bible and praying.

I like this analogy.. When your carnal body is hungry you feed it food.. if you dont feed it your stomach shrinks up and you starve.. Same thing with your spirit.. when its hungry you feed it the bread and water of life and you pray which is spiritual food. If you dont you starve.

Can also think of it like a muscle.. if we dont use it.. it loses strength. We have to build it up and work it. :)
 
Hi pfw -

If you can get hold of a copy of the Philokalia, Vol II, and read the Second Century on Theology of St Maximus the Confessor, you will see a presentation of the Trinity that should keep you going for the rest of your life, or two...

... If you can't, I'll try and copy it for you.

Thomas
(ps - posted under Wil's copy to 'open ground' on the Lib C. forum)
 
As some will know I've struggled with the trinity concept-mainly because I can't find anything to grasp onto that I understand.

I'd like to present this idea I've had as a discussion point and to find out if I'm any closer.

The trinity is Father, Son and Spirit.

Like Mind, Body and Spirit.

The Mind is nothing without the Body and the Body can't function without the Mind-all of which is (in my belief/view) quickend by the Spirit. All three are seperat 'entities' that (with the possible execption of 'Spirit', but that's not important to this analagy) can't exist or function without the other.

Am I wrong, nearly there or a heratic (see you at the next bonfire...)?

It's a common way of looking at it . . . but I don't think it's a matter of "absolutely right" or "absolutely wrong." As Faithfulservant says, it's not about logic. Christianity is not like maths or science. It's not about manipulating formulas, functions and values to get the right answer and it's not about formal semantics.

If that works for you, let it be. I used to use that analogy -- mind-body-spirit, but I guess as time progressed, I've kind of moved on. It was like a phase. A season. But then it changed into something else.

The Father is like an "earthly" father (emotionally and psychologically not physically). A God that's intimate and personal.

The Son is a Bridge. He's the Messiah, our spiritual leader, leading us to the Father, God.

That Bridge is a paradigm for Man, showing Man what to do with himself.

That Bridge is also a paradigm for God, showing Man what God is like.

That Bridge, the Son, is our relationship with God. You could see it as a separate entity, but at the same time it's not essential to see it as a separate entity, since it's a relationship. The Son is a projection of the Father.

The Spirit, the Holy Spirit, is a Voice, a Whisper from God in our hearts.

I've seen dozens of ideas of how to form the "doctrine of Trinity" into some logical concept but there are always problems with these ideas because they try to shoe-horn the logical semantics of those ideas into the raw Christian concept and notion of God. I think we will sleep more easily with the "Trinity" if we didn't try to use logic at all!!!! Let it be something natural.

Think about what the Christian concept of God -- the Father, Son and Holy Spirit means to you. How does it depict your spiritual journey? Don't use logic. Use your emotions and feelings. Let it be something intuitive. Most importantly, let it be something personal, something you can relate to.

If you're seeking a logical definition, you might not find one . . . Have a try. Maybe you will and maybe you won't. If you do, let me know. But I don't think a logical definition is necessary. Why do you think God gave human beings emotions and feelings? Do you not think that He wanted us to discern the path we took in finding and seeking Him? It may be that the Christian concept of God was never meant to be logical, as a logical approach might actually have been an unnatural one.

One would wonder why the Christian apostles didn't explicitly define a "Trinity." Maybe it's just the terminology that's a Trinity, but the actual God isn't. In other words, maybe it's just an expression of one's spiritual journey. I seek the Father, I am led by the Son and I listen to the promptings of the Spirit. That to me sounds more natural and intuitive. It's something I can relate to personally. The reason why I've kind of moved on from the mind, body and spirit thing is because it doesn't mean anything to me anymore. I decided that I needed something a notch more personal -- I mean, where did I fit in the mind, body and spirit thing? That told me nothing about my relationship with God!!!

But if I say,

I seek the Father, I am led by the Son and I listen to the promptings of the Spirit . . .

That tells me what's happening in my relationship with God. I seek Him, I am led to Him and I listen to Him.

In the meantime, though, I should probably let you chew on the mind-body-spirit idea for a while. It's a nice idea. It's a starting point. I guess it's where we all started when we tried to understand this "trinity" thing. You might come up with a better idea further down the road than what I just wrote down.

And, in addition, I, too, may see things differently the next time the question is asked . . . :D

Good luck.
 
...I seek the Father, I am led by the Son and I listen to the promptings of the Spirit . . .
i have many times thought of analogies, while some are helpful in understanding the trinity, they all seem to fail in their attempts to totally grasp god, and when you think about it, it is not too surprising. a god who has infinite and eternal attributes that go beyond our human understanding, how are we going to really express it with out limited vocabulary and limited understanding. i tend to do better thinking of god and how he really is without the analogies like the powerfully simple yet true quote above.

when i think of the trinity and want others to understand it, i talk of salvation. god (father, word, holy ghost) sent the word thru whom all things were created, and he humbly became man and died for our sins, then the resurrected and glorifed christ sent the holy spirit to comfort us and guide us after he was taken back up to glory with the father. there is no salvation of god without christ, christ is gods salvation and love for us. there is no salvation without the spirit speaking to our hearts and we allow him to transform us to be able to say we are wrong and sinners and need christ. and when we have accepted christ the spirit of god dwells with us. and when we accept christ and ask for forgiveness we are spiritually reborn and hidden in christ at the day of judgement and we are now part of gods heavenly kindgom and god is now all in all.
 
A real problem is the Trinity is a Mystery we can only approach by analogy ... and as long as we remember that's what it's like, that's not what it is, then we're OK ...

The real distinction between the Christian Trinity and other triunes lies in the fact that the Trinity speaks of the Interiority of the Deity, whereas all others express modes of manifestation, or modes of Divine Relativity, with regard to the created order, and thus are much more accessible, whereas the Christian doctrine transcends that, into the Interior, into Eckhart's 'Abgrund', the 'Abyss of Deity' ...

... something that is beyond all human understanding ...

The Trinity cannot be understood with the eye/I of the mind, but only in the eye/I of the heart ... as Dionysius says:

We pray that we may come unto this Darkness which is beyond light, and, without seeing and without knowing, to see and to know that which is above vision and knowledge through the realization that by not-seeing and by unknowing we attain to true vision and knowledge; and thus praise, superessentially, it that is superessential, by the transcendence of all things; even as those who, carving a statue out of marble, abstract or remove all the surrounding material that hinders the vision which the marble conceals and, by that abstraction, bring to light the hidden beauty.

It is necessary to distinguish this negative method of abstraction from the positive method of affirmation, in which we deal with the Divine Attributes. For with these latter we begin with the universal and primary, and pass through the intermediate and secondary to the particular and ultimate attributes; but now we ascend from the particular to the universal conceptions, abstracting all attributes in order that, without veil, we may know that Unknowing which is enshrouded under all that is known and all that can be known, and that we may begin to contemplate the superessential Darkness which is hidden by all the light that is in existing things.

Thomas
 
A real problem is the Trinity is a Mystery we can only approach by analogy ... and as long as we remember that's what it's like, that's not what it is, then we're OK ...


I think you've just smaked the problem I've had with the Trinity right on the head. I was always taught that the Trinity was 'literal' yet I could only understand it by analogy...

Makes sense now, if you know what I mean.
 
Makes sense now, if you know what I mean.

I do indeed.

St Augustine said, of time, "when no-one aske me, I know what it is. As soon as someone asks, I don't know... "

Thomas
 
Makes sense now, if you know what I mean.

I do indeed.

St Augustine said, of time, "when no-one aske me, I know what it is. As soon as someone asks, I don't know... "

Thomas

I think I can relate to that . . .

I know what it means to me, but I have no idea what it means, or might mean to someone else.
 
Quit trying to reason it out with logic my friend.. Our natural minds cannot grasp the wonders of the Almighty..
So the number one commandment from Jesus was to Love God with all of thy heart, all of thy soul, and all of thy ... ... ... pride?

Thomas said:
A real problem is the Trinity is a Mystery we can only approach by analogy ... and as long as we remember that's what it's like, that's not what it is, then we're OK ...
Are the writings from Tertullian really a mystery?

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Are the words of Jesus Christ per the book of John in the Bible now obsolete after 2000 years?
 
So the number one commandment from Jesus was to Love God with all of thy heart, all of thy soul, and all of thy ... ... ... pride?


Are the writings from Tertullian really a mystery?

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Are the words of Jesus Christ per the book of John in the Bible now obsolete after 2000 years?

Dont worry Cyberpi.. you wont grasp it as long as you come at it without the Spirit of God. Thats really just how it is. You arent alone though so cheer up.
 
Dont worry Cyberpi.. you wont grasp it as long as you come at it without the Spirit of God. Thats really just how it is. You arent alone though so cheer up.
Who do you think educated me then... since you think the Spirit of God educated you?
 
Pray about it.

Quit trying to reason it out with logic my friend.. Our natural minds cannot grasp the wonders of the Almighty..

Pray and ask God to reveal to you Himself in all manifestations.

The Spiritual things we understand because of the Holy Spirit..

Carnal things we understand because of the world...

We dont ask the world about Spiritual things :)

The Holy Spirit reveals ALL Truth to those that belong to Christ your ticket on that train has been paid you just have to jump aboard by reading the bible and praying.

I like this analogy.. When your carnal body is hungry you feed it food.. if you dont feed it your stomach shrinks up and you starve.. Same thing with your spirit.. when its hungry you feed it the bread and water of life and you pray which is spiritual food. If you dont you starve.

Can also think of it like a muscle.. if we dont use it.. it loses strength. We have to build it up and work it. :)

You make some very good points here, I'd have to say that the only one I disagree with is the second one;
'quite trying to reason it out with logic... our natural minds canot grasp the wonders of the almighty'
(and it's a 'qualified' disagreement- I fully agree with the second part of the statement without hesitation, qualification or doubt).

I believe that spiritual understanding/knowledge (not God) can be expressed in human terms (it's limited and limiting but possible) and is informed and a build up from an interletcual/logical understanding of the subject.

I found the trinity to be a real stumbeling block, mainly due to how it was taught to me so my mind didn't understand it. Now I'd say-largely thanks to this thread and other discussions on this fourum, I have a better interlectual/logical understanding of what the trinity means it's freed me of that block.

I do not believe thought, reason, logic, science etc are 'the enemies of God/religion'-God gave us minds and the capacity for independant thought and reasoning, why? So we would use them.
 
You make some very good points here, I'd have to say that the only one I disagree with is the second one;
'quite trying to reason it out with logic... our natural minds canot grasp the wonders of the almighty'
(and it's a 'qualified' disagreement- I fully agree with the second part of the statement without hesitation, qualification or doubt).

I believe that spiritual understanding/knowledge (not God) can be expressed in human terms (it's limited and limiting but possible) and is informed and a build up from an interletcual/logical understanding of the subject.

I found the trinity to be a real stumbeling block, mainly due to how it was taught to me so my mind didn't understand it. Now I'd say-largely thanks to this thread and other discussions on this fourum, I have a better interlectual/logical understanding of what the trinity means it's freed me of that block.

I do not believe thought, reason, logic, science etc are 'the enemies of God/religion'-God gave us minds and the capacity for independant thought and reasoning, why? So we would use them.
Have to disagree some here.
Man's logical mind can not grasp things of the spirit without help.(Start with 1 Corinthians 2)
 
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