How To Believe?

Let me try to clarify. I'm not looking to believe. I'm fine with myself. I'm trying to understand the process of how belief happens. Since I don't believe in Jesus, don't feel that I can, and therefore don't have any personal experience with it, I'm asking others who do how it works for them. What's the process? So far I've gotten some really good thoughts, and I thank everyone for that.

Chris
 
I think the processes vary but seem to be motivated by desire primarily. And the variations correspond with different types. The psychology behind "belief" is truy facinating on many levels. The second step of of AA is: "Came to believe that a power greater than myself could restore me to sanity" Here is an example of desire motivated belief.
BTW I fully believe you are okay in your own path, and it does my heart good to know you are happy and well Chris. :)
 
I personally think that there is an underlying rationale to the universe. My observation is that all life manifests the various archetypal structures and relationships which are reflections the "personality" of that Logos, if you will. I'm kind of a neo-epicurean in that I think that meaning comes from celebrating the ordinary adventure of life, love, family, friends, and nature in all its finery. For myself, I'm working at releasing all the tangled up programming that prevents me from relaxing into the now. Beyond that I hold no philosophy.

Chris
 
Sorry. I'm back...

So Mark...

How did you arrive at a point where taking a leap of faith seemed like a good idea? Did you feel that you had enough amassed enough evidence that it was a logical extension, or was it that you were tired of looking for evidence and decided to chuck it and just believe. Do you recall how the process worked where you went from point A to point B?
Another tough one...

I was conditioned from birth to believe. Got older and didn't believe. Spent years (after divource) contemplating life and belief. Went back to what I was taught in the first place with some additions.

Most logical thing seems to be that G-d made it all, including me. Filling my place in the universe (or whatever you want to call it) is what gives me joy.

How do I know that it's all true and not just conditioning? I don't. Everything I've seen with my own two eyes and experienced leads me to that conclusion.

What kind of answer is that? I don't know. It's like I'm going through a similar kind of understanding process as you, but I'm choosing to have faith (or believe) first and see what happens.
And what's the payoff? What can you now do that you couldn't before? Or is there a payoff?

Chris

Yeah, the payoff is that "being good" or "going with the flow" or "fulfilling your place in the universe" gives you this sense of peace and safety that (IMO) other things don't offer.

"Thou wilt keep him in perfect peace whose mind is stayed upon thee", etc.

I'm a work in progress!

What do you think?
 
The second step of of AA is: "Came to believe that a power greater than myself could restore me to sanity" Here is an example of desire motivated belief.

That's an excellent example! So let's explore that for a second. My question is: how did one come to believe in this power greater than themself? At what point did they actually believe versus just saying it? I take your point about desire as motivation: the desire that there actually be a higher power to rescue one's self from one's self, but I'm wondering when that sort of compartmentalized belief becomes a whole brained, genuine belief.

It's kind of like someone saying that as long as you aren't afraid of the bear it won't hurt you. The bear can sense fear. Well, how do I get to the point where I'm actually not afraid? If I keep thinking, "I won't show fear, I won't show fear, I won't show fear" will I ever get to the point where I'm actually not afraid? And is the bear fooled in the meanwhile? So, what about saying, " I believe, I believe, God won't hurt me if I believe, so I believe...no, I really do." And in the process perhaps one shuts off their mind to anything which might distract from the desire to believe. But wouldn't that compartmentalization leave one without the necessary intellectual resources to effect a genuine belief?

Chris
 
Chris, you must first understand that the final barrier between Absolute Reality and us is "belief" Like "perspective" it is limiting because it includes something to the exclusion of something else. That is why some persons experience a cognitive dissonance after a while. Others seem to stay in the belief for a whole life time. In the case of the Second Step it is exhaustion and ultimately surrender in a "well, why the hell not, nothing else has worked, might as well try it" kind of way.
In my own case, it was an actual experience that led me to believe as I do. I don't buy into the model of Mainstream Christianity, but I do understand it. It provides comfort and consolation on the upside and a sense of exclusive egoism on the downside. I agree with your idea of compartmentalization, because it excludes the need for exploration. The mystic experience however is different. In it, you do in fact experience the absolute. A study of Maslow's peak experiences model is helpful here. Reading the poetry of Rumi or St. John of the Cross is also helpful, because one gets a sense that here is no mere intellectualization of myth or magical thinking. Here is something else, something shared by many of the worlds great traditions. Notice that mystics of many religions seem to speak the same language.
Also, look within yourself and ask, how did I come to understand as I do? An accident? A concious choice based on logical alternatives? In my world view, why do I have this, but reject that? What criteria must I use?
 
Also, look within yourself and ask, how did I come to understand as I do? An accident? A concious choice based on logical alternatives? In my world view, why do I have this, but reject that? What criteria must I use?
Ah! This is precisely what I'm attempting to do! What I referred to as unravelling the programming. It's a personal deconstruction.

You know, what's really interesting is that, in terms of Thomas' Borella quote, we are not the masters of our bodies, and add to that that we are not the masters of our minds either. My thoughts don't seem to come from anything interior to me, or anything localized so far as I can tell. And when it comes right down to it, about all I have of myself is the mythology of myself that I've built up over time. So in deconstructing myself I want to see what will happen when I clean that closet out. Maybe I'll disappear! Wouldn't that be wild!

Chris
 
Rumi used to say that in Shams presence, he was annihilated. Even the Christian mystics speak of self dissolving into God. The words, the model, are not the thing-in-itself.
You are a brave person Chris, the heart of an explorer and soul of a poet. I wish you well on your journey

Peace
Mark
 
If I keep thinking, "I won't show fear, I won't show fear, I won't show fear" will I ever get to the point where I'm actually not afraid?
Love the bear analogy! Yes, I think so. I'd think of it as a positive affirmation. I think your mind believes what your ears hear your mouth saying.
And is the bear fooled in the meanwhile?
I don't think so. But he is who he is supposed to be and I think he would recognize that you're who you're supposed to be. And maybe he wouldn't attack you because he would recognize your (collective) oneness or something. But if he did, you would have a glorious death!:eek:
So, what about saying, " I believe, I believe, God won't hurt me if I believe, so I believe...no, I really do."
Hence the "I believe, help thou my unbelief" thing.
And in the process perhaps one shuts off their mind to anything which might distract from the desire to believe. But wouldn't that compartmentalization leave one without the necessary intellectual resources to effect a genuine belief?

Chris

I don't think so. I see a swap of my intellectual resources for G-d's and I don't have a problem with that. He made them anyway.
 
So, what about saying, " I believe, I believe, God won't hurt me if I believe, so I believe...no, I really do."
Could it be an issue with what you do believe.

I'm stretching what may just be a line in your 'what if' into reality...but it goes there...

In my opinion many a proslytizing Christian in their zealousness to save souls has caused problems...one being that G-d is somehow out to hurt us. I guess that is my belief system...G-d doesn't intend to hurt me, and won't hurt me. And being coerced to believe so G-d won't hurt me, is just a scary notion.

So while I don't know if this is in your current paradigm, but it is in others, both Christian and non-Christian....and to me, it is a shame.

Bumper sticker: Jesus save me from your followers.
 
Ah! This is precisely what I'm attempting to do! What I referred to as unravelling the programming. It's a personal deconstruction.
Chris

Enjoyed your entire post. I'm going through this too, but you're obviously way ahead of me. And I'm not willing to throw everything out while I'm thinking...
 
China Cat Sunflower said:
So in deconstructing myself I want to see what will happen when I clean that closet out. Maybe I'll disappear! Wouldn't that be wild!

Hi Chris. :) I love your mind and spirit. My opinion doesn't really matter, but I just want to say that even in what you call "unbelief", you find so much truth. If you ever suddenly drop out here, I will wonder....see ya there!

InPeace,
InLove
 
How does a person believe? What does belief entail? Can belief be founded on blind faith, or does one have to have something to go on first to believe? Can I just say, "I believe" without actually believing? Is that how it's supposed to work?

I can't find enough evidence to believe. I tried to just believe without the evidence, but it didn't work. I can't just have faith without some kind of starter belief, and I can't find the evidence to justify it without starting from certain assumptions which can't be proven.

What is Jesus actually talking about? What is it to believe?

Chris

Hi Chris, I don't know the answers to your questions but maybe I'll try to return to some of them in a bit. For me it was not a matter of making myself 'believe' in something that went against my reasoning, but rather choosing to trust something that aligned with my experiences and understanding, and letting it grow from that seed. Granted, the roots of that understanding were probably instilled in me as a child by my parents, and I've been fortunate that none of my programming has come from a place I would call harmful.

To the best of my discernment, Jesus is talking (at least) about putting our trust in a God Who is Love and living our life in that knowledge.

2 c,
luna
 
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reflecting upon this, I think lunamoth spoke in a sense for myself, when he spoke of the influence of his parents. My own had no particular "belief" as such that they attempted to instill in me, yet I realise now how their always obvious love for me has given me what I have always valued and known as a fundamental trust in "reality", the instinct that we live in a cosmos and not a chaos. This in spite of the fact that, having a weak mind easily influenced by those whose "beliefs" are strong and unyielding, such trust has often been punctured, yet always recovered. Seeing the questions of Chris I feel in a quandary.................how to "begin" to believe, to trust, if such is not an instinctive sense of your being. Once again my NT is rusty, yet I do remember some words like "even the devils believe, and tremble", which appear to point to the reality that mere "belief" needs further supplements to issue in that which is positive, both for oneself and others. And reflecting upon this, the words of Baudelaire come to mind.........It is more difficult to love God than to believe in him There seems to me to be a great difference between those who "love God" and those who merely "believe" in Him, so much so that often the belief of some "Godfearers" quite frankly makes the pee run down my legs (as I remember someone on another forum saying!) I just appear to be rabbiting on, yet I think of one of the tales of Nasruddin, the one where he is found looking for a key beneath the light of a street lamp. He seeks it there, not because this was where he actually dropped it, but because here there was more light............This seems to relate to all our conditioning, biological or psychological, all the "drives, conventions, patterns, and habits that urge us to follow the most familiar course of action irrespective of how inappropriate or destructive it might be" (Batchelor) Its relevance seems to be that we can all get caught up in such drives, never seeking beyond, locked up within an iron sense of "self" that understands itself as independent and permanent. And for me, it is fear, the opposite of true trust/faith, that keeps us caged. In many ways "belief" is the polar opposite of genuine trust, which to me is more a "letting go". (Belief being a "clinging to") Who and what are we really? Stephen Batchelor suggests that perhaps we shall never know, yet the alternative to this potentially creative unknowing is to freeze ourselves inside rigid definitions of self that I have already referred to. So perhaps to "believe" in the sense demanded by the original quote calls more for a release of "belief", to begin looking at our chains. "Deconstruction" indeed! And maybe when the "beliefs" we already have are gone, we shall open the way to the "love of God", which in a sense is all that matters.
 
Hello Chris,
The way I see it, is that what people normally call faith is grounded on need.
The need of safety and security, the need of acceptance from God and others, guilty? the need to make amends.
Apart from love, the biggest need I think is to transform your present reality to the hope of a better existence now or in an afterlife, from an otherwise senseless existence or a life full of very trying circumstances.
Healthy belief is a very powerful form of psychotherapy.

Quite often you hear people talking about needing or wanting God. One day it clicked that if I put aside all the rubbish, I really don't want or desire god that much at all! In fact I came to my senses by gradually getting rid of the brainwashing that coerced me to believe.

I've been a while in this forum and I've learned a lot, but sometimes I question what am I doing here since I don't have an inch of the commitment that many people have here to their paths. I am most attracted to taoism but don't have enough desire to study it and practice it properly, and I feel doing so contradicts the taosit philosophy anyway.

So if I am honest how often have I seeked without an ulterior motive or need?
As you suggest it is about peeling that banana from the external conditioning, what is left imo is real faith or real nonbelief.
 
On the BBC today I heard that the primary detector is being lowered into the new 15 mile supersymmetric large hadron collider at CERN near Geneva Switzerland. The machine will be switched on this fall.

In it proton collisions travelling in opposite directions at nearly the speed of light will simulate the state of the universe about 1,000th of a nanosecond after the big bang in time. But all this will only inform us of the history of the 5% of the universe that we can grasp and see, and nothing of the 95% of the universe made up of dark matter and dark energy.

I'm sorry...it's still my belief that LOVE holds everything in the universe together; and, whatever they come up with at CERN isn't going to change my belief...but it will be so, so interesting. But then...the Beatles knew all about that in the early 60's

flow....:)
 
Hello Chris,
The way I see it, is that what people normally call faith is grounded on need.
The need of safety and security, the need of acceptance from God and others, guilty? the need to make amends.
Apart from love, the biggest need I think is to transform your present reality to the hope of a better existence now or in an afterlife, from an otherwise senseless existence or a life full of very trying circumstances.
Healthy belief is a very powerful form of psychotherapy.

Quite often you hear people talking about needing or wanting God. One day it clicked that if I put aside all the rubbish, I really don't want or desire god that much at all! In fact I came to my senses by gradually getting rid of the brainwashing that coerced me to believe.

I've been a while in this forum and I've learned a lot, but sometimes I question what am I doing here since I don't have an inch of the commitment that many people have here to their paths. I am most attracted to taoism but don't have enough desire to study it and practice it properly, and I feel doing so contradicts the taosit philosophy anyway.

So if I am honest how often have I seeked without an ulterior motive or need?
As you suggest it is about peeling that banana from the external conditioning, what is left imo is real faith or real nonbelief.

You sound a lot like me. For a long time I went around spouting axioms and spiritual-ish plattitudes. But then I started thinking, wondering what I really knew and didn't know, wondering about the value of subscribing to, and pretty much mindlessly regurgitating other people's ideas, wondering what my own motivations and needs were.

There seems to be a large component of social engineering within belief systems. A critical look at a lot of the nice sounding spiritual stuff that really appeals to people shows that there is very often a social control motive underlying the emotional carrot. This is quite apparent if one studies the Tao te Ching, for instance. Don't get me wrong, I love the Tao, but it was written to be philosophical advice on how to rule people and create a cohesive and passive citizenry.

I guess a part of me is like Toto in the Wizard of Oz, always cynically seeking to peek behind the curtain and expose the real cause and motives behind things.

Chris
 
How to believe?

Some people I suppose are lucky and are given evidence of God's existance.

I have myself been confused with particular phrases from the book of John in the Bible.

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
(John 3:16)"believeth in him"
So do I just believe that he existed..?I have often pondered this and have come to the conclusion that it is meant for me to believe in what he taught.

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life (John 5:24).
"believeth on him that sent me"
So do I believe that God sent Jesus here. Or do I just believe in God, that he exists.. or do I believe in what God teaches?


I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me (John 14:6).
"but by me"
What does this mean. Are we to petition Jesus to come to the Father? I have concluded in this that it means again, to believe and follow the teachings of Jesus.

I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? (John 11:25-26).

"liveth and believeth in me"
This would confirm again that we are to live by the teachings of Jesus and believe they are the truth.

these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name"
(John 20:31).

We get to something different here. We are asked to believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Anointed One. They one spoken of in the old testament. John in this part seems to be 'inviting' us to believe this.. it is not a command... is it?

These are but a few from the Book of John. I always try to remember that Jesus was speaking at the time to people of a particular faith.

My conclusions from reading these and many other phrases in the bible that are similar have prompted my research into the life of Jesus from alternative Gospels as well.
 
Could it be an issue with what you do believe.

I'm stretching what may just be a line in your 'what if' into reality...but it goes there...

In my opinion many a proslytizing Christian in their zealousness to save souls has caused problems...one being that G-d is somehow out to hurt us. I guess that is my belief system...G-d doesn't intend to hurt me, and won't hurt me. And being coerced to believe so G-d won't hurt me, is just a scary notion.

So while I don't know if this is in your current paradigm, but it is in others, both Christian and non-Christian....and to me, it is a shame.

Bumper sticker: Jesus save me from your followers.

Well, you keep coming back to me, and I keep putting you off.

Yeah, that's my programming: If you believe God won't hurt you. So, I never did believe, but I pretended because I was afraid, and because it was the socially acceptable thing. But then later, when I was a young adult I went through a serious crisis. I had the conversion experience I'd been waiting for as a kid. But when the crisis was resolved I slipped away. So that makes me think that it's all about emotional needs. I mean, I believed for all I was worth when I needed something to rescue me from myself, but when things equalized I realized what my real motivation was. But I can't shake the feeling that there's something more to it. So I'm wondering what the real skinny is with belief. I'm wondering how one gets past the programming, the surface thing where you're feeding an emotional need, and how to find the bottom line of the thing.

What is it, really, to believe? That's what I want to know.

Chris
 
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