Time/Space, What is That Like?

[Pathless]

"...just how we livin' within the hip life
Time, Space, no one is alike
Be you and just be you
Or be out, that's right..."

words of wisdom by Digable Planets

(____(____(_(_(_(____)__)_)__)_)__)_____)___)___)000

??????​

An amorphous question is sitting somewhere in me. Excuse me while I go "hmmmm" and try to tease it out through the keyboard.

Is it possible to reality-shift? I suppose that quantum physics points to this somewhat, and that is interesting and all--particle/wave, wave/particle--yet I am more intuitive than scientific.

Is time unreal? Einstein said that time is an illusion:

"...for us physicists who believe, the separation between past, present, and future is only an illusion, although a convincing one."

Interesting to me also that he chose the word "believe." "...for us physcisits who believe," smacks of some sort of spiritual/relgious faith, no? Interesting detail, but that's not where I want to go.

"Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one." Einstein again. If we take the genius at his word, or better yet if we realize for ourselves that reality is indeed a complicated, persistent, and subtly-wired illusion, what happens to us? Hey, could we be illusory, too? Could our egos be merely illusions, little fabrications of a cosmic giggle?

Whooooaaa. Hold on there a minute, Keanu. Does this mean we wake up inside the Matrix once again or what?

My specualtion is naw... it just means things is different than we woulda thunk a minute ago. Us/them? What? Me/you? Particle/wave? What? Where? Who?

How limited is our consciousness? Pretty limited, when you're stuck in your ego. But what happens if you can somehow (and that's the tricky part--how) bust out of that ego cocoon and blossom into the human beings? Beings? Yes, plural, beings.

Didn't Jesus say something about the fruit and the vine? And what if that is true, in a way? Maybe we are all fruit on the vine, and maybe again we are also the vine. I know, I know, for you die-hard Christians being the vine is Jesus's job. Alright, I'll give you that, and you can stop reading now.

For the rest of you heretics who believe that maybe, just maybe, Jesus's teachings are supressed by the concreteness of various church dogmas and Sunday-school social structures, you know what I'm getting at here?

That's good, because I don't. I mean, I do, sort of, but I'm also just allowing myself to "blah blah blah."

Let's shift back to the idea of the reality-shift. If time is not a fixed linear thing made strictly of points, maybe it too is more of a wave. A timewave? Then we could go surfing! We could even go underwater, swim to points unknown and resurface. And just as we are allowing ourselves to adjust our positions in time, could we also drastically adjust our position in space? Wormhole, anyone?

These are the speculative ramblings of an intuitive mind steeped in dreams, books, coffee, paint, and music. Originally I thought to post this in "Alternative" religions, then thought about philosophy (haha pun intended), but ultimately what happened was that Einstein whispered in my ear something about science and the universe, Douglas Adams shouted "42!!", and Stephen Hawking wrote me a poem directing me to post this new thread in his science section.

What??

I dunno. Do you?

 

[Ciel]

Are you tuned to my present three days since migrain Pathless?

- c -

 

[InLove]

LOL, Pathless--I'm trying to sort through all of this. I am not particularly good at stating ideas from a strictly scientific POV. (Yes, you may laugh--I laugh with you--hahahaha, InLove and science-hahahaha! )

BUT, being one of those folks who often thinks that religious dogma can get in the way of spiritual and practical meaning of Sacred Texts and the mythos contained within them, I think I might be able to comment.

I like to "live in the moment". Some folks might think that means living for selfish motives. It does not, for me, and I suspect many, many others. What living in the moment can do is keep us from worrying about the future, inordinately dwelling on past mistakes, while focusing on the needs of right now. That does not mean we cannot study history and learn from it, and it does not keep us from attempting to wisely plan for the future. "In this moment" is where the past and future meet, and yes, it does seem to increase reality, in my opinion. It is not always easy to do, but I find that when I do it, I seem to see more clearly. Does this make sense to anyone?

InPeace,
InLove

 

[Ciel]

So this state of migrain releases........ you see in this state Pathless your words make perfect sense,in repetition yes, but the blah carries, so at this point instead of Ciel talking as Ciel talks I find myself beyond the barriers or boundaries of the past retoric.......... And moved by colour, predominately yellow. some colours contain, immerse, others manifest, spread outwards, no holding pattern, interaction through sunlight on subtle senses, sunlight through worm holes of change.
So what is it I'm attempting to put forward here,,,mmmmmm, subtle senses, forces of planetary colour, in or out of the paint box, cosmic or commodity and er..... time.

And is the moment colourless?

Sometimes yes and sometimes no. And always neutral.

I see the air of space, it is not empty though it is no-thing. It is vibrational pattern and frequency form.

I see incoming forces of cosmic colour mixing with emmissive planetary colour, conductores of life force and energy. Movement through time.

And the moment is timeless yet time moves.

- c -

 

[Snoopy]

Is it possible to reality-shift? I suppose that quantum physics points to this somewhat, and that is interesting and all--particle/wave, wave/particle--yet I am more intuitive than scientific.
Is time unreal? Einstein said that time is an illusion:
"...for us physicists who believe, the separation between past, present, and future is only an illusion, although a convincing one."
"Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one." Einstein again. If we take the genius at his word, or better yet if we realize for ourselves that reality is indeed a complicated, persistent, and subtly-wired illusion, what happens to us? Hey, could we be illusory, too? Could our egos be merely illusions, little fabrications of a cosmic giggle?

Hi,

Was Einstein saying that time is an illusion; or that the distinction between past present and future is an illusion? Einstein’s thoughts on time / space were presumably not unconnected with his respect for Buddhism, no?

Let's shift back to the idea of the reality-shift. If time is not a fixed linear thing made strictly of points, maybe it too is more of a wave. A timewave? Then we could go surfing! We could even go underwater, swim to points unknown and resurface. And just as we are allowing ourselves to adjust our positions in time, could we also drastically adjust our position in space? Wormhole, anyone?

Your blah blah blah is to be expected, it takes a great mind to enunciate the ineffable! My blah blah blah is that in moments of being present I have a vague sense of there being only the ever changing present moment. As space (and its contents) change we call this process time but the two are inextricably linked, the same even. Perhaps I should hand over to the experts…

"The Einsteinian notion of space-time, a continuum in which time represents the fourth dimension, was apparently anticipated by Dogen, for whom time was inseparable from “being”. Time, of course, can only exist within a context of space, since it is a function of movement. But since being, or put another way, consciousness, is self-identical with space, time itself is inseparable from being.
Dogen said: “So-called time of being means time is already being; all being is time…Self is arrayed as the whole world. You should perceive that each point, each thing of this whole world is an individual time.”
Shunryu Suzuki elaborates this point: “Moment after moment each one of us repeats this activity (of breathing). Here there is no idea of time and space. Time and space are one. We do things one after the other, that is all. At one o’clock you will eat your lunch. To eat lunch is itself one o’clock. You will be somewhere, but that place cannot be separated from one o’clock.” To create an idea of a place separate from one o’clock, as when we say “I wish I had gone somewhere else for lunch,” is playing mind-games, weaving illusion."

Spiritual Nirvana - Practical paths to Enlightenment » 5. Dogen and Einstein


s.

 

[Snoopy]

I like to "live in the moment". Some folks might think that means living for selfish motives. It does not, for me, and I suspect many, many others. What living in the moment can do is keep us from worrying about the future, inordinately dwelling on past mistakes, while focusing on the needs of right now. That does not mean we cannot study history and learn from it, and it does not keep us from attempting to wisely plan for the future. "In this moment" is where the past and future meet, and yes, it does seem to increase reality, in my opinion. It is not always easy to do, but I find that when I do it, I seem to see more clearly. Does this make sense to anyone?
InPeace,
InLove

Hi,

I don't know InLove, every word of this just sounds like Buddhist clap trap.

s.

 

[InLove]

Oh yeah???

Cool.

InPeace,
InLove

 

[Snoopy]

Oh yeah???

Cool.

InPeace,
InLove

Steady, you don't know where it might lead!

s.

 

[InLove]

Okay--I'll proceed with caution. Here's what I think, though--I will wind up in the moment wherever I am.

InPeace,
InLove

 

[wil]

Okay--I'll proceed with caution. Here's what I think, though--I will wind up in the moment wherever I am.

InPeace,
InLove

Will you....how often have you not been where you were? Ie how often have your thoughts not been in the same time and space as your body.

 

[InLove]

Will you....how often have you not been where you were? Ie how often have your thoughts not been in the same time and space as your body.

Yeah, but I am talking about that which does not necessarily always include my body.

InPeace,
InLove

 

[Pathless]

I didn't start this thread intending to talk about mindfulness and living in the present moment, but okay. Y'all can roll with that if you want to. Living in the present moment is certainly crucial and difficult to do.

What I was hoping to get some feedback on was this idea of reality-surfing, or changing our positions within timespace. I'm not talking about teleportation or time-travel back to ogle at the dinosaurs, although if someone wants to talk about that stuff, that's cool, too.

What I'm interested in is more along the lines of parallel worlds. Imagine that there are uncountable streams of timespace which are ultimately connected, yet we, as individuals, are only able to inhabit one at a time. Or are we? I guess the first question is, assuming that multiple "realities" of timespace ("parallel worlds") exist, must not there be some way to travel from one to another? If so, how would we know if we had suddenly quantum leaped into another frame of timespace? Things would be different, perhaps, but things are changing all the time regardless...

I've also been playing with this idea that our individual egos are like limbs of some higher being (a god, if you will). We have some autonomy, but ultimately our actions are a reflection of this higher being or higher self, who may be playing us like a child plays with an action figure, kind of, except different. That analogy should serve alright, though. And this higher being/self is not only playing our individual egos, which are manifestations of it (the higher self), but also it is playing some unknown quantity of other individuals, too.

So this starts to sound a lot like the concept of Lila, divine play, found in "Hinduism." Yet where Lila is the divine play of a supreme creator, I'm envisioning something that is more like the divine play of our individual souls* of which our body/mind/spirit is only one manifestation among many.

Anyone following this hoo-ha? If so, and we assume that this soul/higher being is our guiding divine principle in life (again, basically a god), and we are one among many of its manifestations, then in one sense we have a whole slew of "other lives" in "parallel worlds" that are intimately connected to ours, and that we are completely unaware of.

Alright, well, that's enough of that. Time for a walk.

*which in turn are limbs of the supreme creator, who in turn is a thought bubble of another supreme creator, and on and on and on and on...

Peace,
Pathless


Oh and....

Was Einstein saying that time is an illusion; or that the distinction between past present and future is an illusion? .

What's the difference? Semantics?

 

[wil]

I think we are operating in other universes and other times. But we can't really entertain more than one thought at once currently and therefor can't see our lives at the other times or in the other locations.

Some of us appear to have the ability to remember some of our past or our future or our other aspects...however we typically don't think much of those that do.

Sure we often allow some certain bit of 'fantasy' but if one goes into an ongoing state of talking to G-d or about past lives...well that is just another situation all together...

So maybe there is a reason that in this plane and at this time our abilities have a governor on them?

 

[Ciel]

So maybe thats it.

The consensus is the appreciation of the moment.

Because at this time there is a realisation time space is thought space.

A life time of interdimensional travel is nothing compared to the ultimate human space the moment brings.

- c -

 

[Quahom1]

So maybe thats it.

The consensus is the appreciation of the moment.

Because at this time there is a realisation time space is thought space.

A life time of interdimensional travel is nothing compared to the ultimate human space the moment brings.

- c -

Apparently it is possible to "phase shift". Same space, different time, same time different space.

Consider the poor photon. The only thing man has gotten to move so fast through space, that it can arrive in time to see itself depart...though not fast enough to be at the same moment in time and space as it was (that might be quite devastating to us all). Of course this is all based on our limited understanding of time and space (and gravity).

Time is afterall a "frequency", as is space (more or less). Example: I can bring a ship's generator on line (which will handle the load), but it works rather laboriously if everyone is doing everything requiring electricity, all at once. But I can bring a second generator online and split the load between the two (one handles half and the other, the other half), of the demand.

But what if I can syncronize the output of the energy of the two generators to the same specifications? Why, I can literally "parallel" them up! Indeed, I can theoretcially bring a third generator into phase with the other two and triple the power at one third the load to each (hard to do, but possible).

Now the two physical generators do not occupy the same space at the same time, but the output of energy they produce does. It is called being "in phase". The result is twice the power at half the load for each generator, with a very stable frequency for the recipients of that energy. The energy frequencies are identical in time, and run along the same pathway (space) at the same instant. (for those who have ever been on a boat with two engines running at the same time at high speed, every once in awhile the sound of the two engines seems to mesh into one for a bit...they sound like one engine-that is sound energy approaching the same frequency at the same time, in the same space, then they lose sycnronization and harmonics, and you hear two distinct engines). ok, back to my original point -

However, if one generator falls out of phase with the other, then the frequencies of the energies stop running in parallel, and indeed "collide" with eachother...and that can make for a very destructive result. That is called, being out of phase. It is an electrician's bane. It can cause all kind of electrical failures and destroy lots of stuff very quickly (including one generator or both).

So, to be out of phase but in the same space is not good. To be in phase and in the same space is great, but touchy to keep. To be out of phase and not in the same space is isolation and irrelevant (from a physics perspective).

How am I doing so far?

oops, forgot - to be in phase (in time), but not in the same space...what would that be? Two engines, who's harmonics come together for a time? No. Reality is that two objects in phase in time but not in the same space can be used for great creativity, or astounding disruption...consider the walls of Jericho -

 

[Pathless]

Thanks Q for the scientific engineering perspective!

I like this idea of being in phase, and the increase in power that that brings. It makes me think about something maybe not totally unrelated that is happening over the next couple of days. Many "shamans" are gathering at Lake Titicaca in Peru for the Spring Equinox to chant, sing, drum, pray, and just basically do a ginormous ritual for progressive and creative peace. Throughout the world as well, many people are gathering over the next few days to perform rituals, discuss issues, network, and such. So it is a synchronized activity. We could dress it up in the language of phases, as well, couldn't we, and say that all of these human beings are "in phase" with one another in their intentions. There are groups of them dispersed throughout the globe, in different spaces. Harmonic Resonance?

Can we extend our concept of "in phase" to include humanity? I suppose so, that's how the walls of Jericho were supposed to have fallen. We need great creativity now, geared towards love and cooperation. There's enough destruction and falling bombs blowing up walls without people consciously trying to be in phase with it!

 

[Ciel]

Q,

It may surprize you that I understand completely and agree.

Thank you for the dissertation.

- c -

 

[Snoopy]

Oh and....



What's the difference? Semantics?

Hi,

No not semantics. It is possible that there is such a thing as time, if "only" as a psychological construct, but it does not necessarily follow from this, that it is something that is actually divisible into three separates: past, present and future.

s.

 

[Pathless]

Okay, I think I am starting to follow, but may need some more hand-holding on this concept. Just 'cuz, you know, that's what has been ingrained in us about time: past, present, future. If time is not that--or is more than that--what are we talking about? Is it a substance, a property, a figment of our imagination?

I finished reading a book recently that mentioned in passing that time might be more "solid" than we are aware of. Because we are within it, we are blind to its concrete essence, if you will. So could time be conceptualized as some kind of sphere, with different paths wound up inside it? Maybe something super-dense, like the core of a tennis ball? If some consciousness exists outside of this "timesphere," how different would it be from our familiar human consciousness? Woud it be totally free of the constraints of time, or being outside the "timesphere," would it be subject to a more grandiose meta-time? One in which light years could be passed in seconds, and in which human history is the space of an inhalation?

Hmmmm.

 

[Snoopy]

Okay, I think I am starting to follow, but may need some more hand-holding on this concept. Just 'cuz, you know, that's what has been ingrained in us about time: past, present, future. If time is not that--or is more than that--what are we talking about? Is it a substance, a property, a figment of our imagination?

Hi,

My, you’re in trouble if you’re thinking I can hand-hold you through this!

I can only contribute my own thoughts and perceptions, typed in a garbled way and inextricably mixed with scientific gobbledygook and philosophical musings.

There seems to be a great deal of wild scientific theorising on these areas. By wild, I mean difficult if not impossible for mere mortals to comprehend. For instance, if 3 (or 4) dimensions is not enough for you, how about 10 or 11 ?!

M-theory, the theory formerly known as Strings​

"The basic oneness of the universe is not only the central characteristic of the mystical experience, but is also one of the most important revelations of modern physics. .... As we study the various models of subatomic physics we shall see that they express again and again, in different ways, the same insight--that the constituents of matter and the basic phenomena involving them are all interconnected, interrelated and interdependent; that they cannot be understood as isolated entities, but only as integrated parts of the whole."
In his 1967 book "The Three Pillars of Zen," Philip Kapleau Roshi wrote these words before presenting a short section from Zen Master Dogen’s Shobogenzo on “Being-Time”:
"Dogen’s Insights as to time and being, realized by him introspectively in the 13th century through zazen, and the views of certain contemporary micro- and macro-physicists on time and space, arrived at by them through the principles and methods of science, parallel each other to a remarkable degree. The difference, however, and a deeply significant one, is in the effect these insights had upon these men. Dogen’s realization, being a Self-discovery, liberated him from the basic anxieties of human existence, bringing him inner freedom and peace and deep moral certainty. But, as far as can be seen at this time, no such inner evolution has followed in the wake of these scientific discoveries."

​

The Elegant Universe: A Review​

Time can therefore be viewed as “part and parcel” of the universe, the continual process of change in the phenomena of the universe (anicca). But maybe there is “only” ever NOW, the past is just our memories of the Now that has happened and the future is our fantasies/fears/thoughts about what may happen when the current Now has occurred. The past and future therefore only exist in our minds; the present is where the universe is really at, man, (and all the time!) (which is why it is the only place to live. If your mind is in the past or the future, you are the living dead)
My small mind has enough difficulty grappling with the writings of Dogen (intermittently) on the subject/s. I think the quote in post #5 is as clear as such a slippery thing can be put into words.

So the universe and time are seen by Dogen as a fundamental unity: “existence-time” or “uji”. All phenomena exist as temporal manifestations.

“Mountains are also time; oceans are time as well. If they were not, there would be neither mountains nor oceans.”

“Existence-time is realised in the present. Its concrete realisation takes place in the present moment; hence, an analysis of this is fundamental to all other aspects of the problem of time. As Dogen asked: Is any existence or any world excluded from this present moment? The present time under consideration is each individual’s realised now. Even though it makes you think of the past, present, and future, and tens of thousands of other times, they are the present time, realised now.”

- Eihei Dogen: Mystical Realist. –by Hee-Jin Kim.​

OK, now I do need a coffee.

s.