The real cause of Islamic terrorism - the yogic perspective

[Pathless]

I would say that American foreign policy is not an exclusive cause. Shia and Sunny fight amongst themselves. How do you explain going round in death squads torturing people, killing them and throwing them in mass graves. Sorry this is inexcusable.

Hmmm. How much do we really know about these "death squads?" I'd be interested in hearing/seeing any information you have on them. What are they? Who are they? How do we hear about them? Through our American media?

Saddam Hussein was a power puppet of Western interests in the Middle East. He began as a CIA agent. After the first Gulf War, the United States encouraged the Shia to rise against Saddam and then abandoned them. 10,00 Shia were massacred by Saddam.

Who is responsible? Where does the verdict of "inexcusable" really fall?

--Pathless

 

[bananabrain]

oh, come *on*, pathless. you're not seriously suggesting that the murderous infighting between sunni and shi'a is a put-up job by the americans, are you? if they were that sophisticated, do you not think they'd have managed to do something a bit simpler like, say, run iraq in the first place, or plant evidence for WMDs? i mean, are they incompetent, or are they wily, resourceful, masters of intrigue? can't have it both ways.

i mean, look at this thread here on CR for an example of the very real hatred:

http://www.comparative-religion.com/forum/sunni-vs-shia-5375.html

i should also add, with my moderator hat on (well, it's a turban really) that this thread is very, very close to the line, if not actually over it. the key offender here is niranjan, who i advise to moderate his language and positions somewhat if he is to last longer than a week without getting banned for inflammatory posting - to say nothing of cut-and-paste triumphalist polemics.

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[Postmaster]

even Al jezera reports on this issue.

 

[niranjan]

the key offender here is niranjan, who i advise to moderate his language and positions somewhat if he is to last longer than a week without getting banned for inflammatory posting - to say nothing of cut-and-paste triumphalist polemics.

I apologize profusely if I have crossed the limits in any way, though I must say I have only presented facts from reliable sources .

However I will definetely consider what you say.

Thanking you,

Niranjan.

 

[Pathless]

oh, come *on*, pathless. you're not seriously suggesting that the murderous infighting between sunni and shi'a is a put-up job by the americans, are you? if they were that sophisticated, do you not think they'd have managed to do something a bit simpler like, say, run iraq in the first place, or plant evidence for WMDs? i mean, are they incompetent, or are they wily, resourceful, masters of intrigue? can't have it both ways.

Ah, bananabrain. A put-up job? I don't know about that. I do know that the administration perpetuating the current war in Iraq does not give a damn about the Iraqi people, whether they be Shia, Sunni, or Kurd. The hatred between the different factions could actually serve a political end for a colonizing force. Some call it auto-genocide. When the locals are okay with killing themselves in gang warfare, you don't have to bring in such a big force of your own to do the job.

I may think that the Dubya administration is willfully ignorant, but I'm not sure I believe these militarized corporate gangsters are flat-out stupid. Perhaps they are actually wickedly intelligent masters of manipulation. After all, they've kept the citizens of their own country in their dark pocket for a good while now, entertaining them with patriot games and selling them false myths of superiority. And as long as that remains, they are empowered to do what they will with their military and economic might, while the sedated, brainswashed masses sit on their couches and look down their noses at the barbaric violence and self-destruction of the people of Iraq.

It's a civil war there, I think, more than a bunch of religious zealots massacring each other.

Anyhow, I'm straying off topic again.

 

[niranjan]

Through this thread , I am only stating the damage caused by certain verses in the quran which violate modern morality.

And I believe that these verses , considering the destruction they have caused around the world for centuries, should be eradicated, or at least moderate Islamic scholars should proactively educate their community by pointing out the havoc and carnage caused by these verses since the birth of Islam.
In this way , we can definetely eradicate Islamic terrorism and their consequent bloodshed and suffering , through out the world.

I believe this is the logical and pragmatic solution to this problem.

Peace to all,

Niranjan.

 

[Postmaster]

Well, as much as I'am a passivist I don't rule out that force can be used for a good cause although I hope that force can not be justified on any level, but its not for me to judge. niranjan, the patron saint of France was a female Christian military genius who indulged in warfare and claims to have been chosen by God to do so, what do you think about that? For me it is quite contrary to what I've grown up to understand about Christianity, I have a story of 2 Christian priests and 1 12 year old girl who would not submit to the invading Ottoman army and preferred being tortured to death. 500 years later, a whole village in Greece on the island of Lesvos where that took place, the villagers would dream of them on Monday night and Tuesday morning so much so that it got the response of a journalist sceptic who went to investigate and found there reminds and archaeological evidence. They built a church in there name and they have been miraculously curing people of illness.

 

[Dor]

Pathless where are you at? I mean where do you live?
Heck your hatred toward America, Im sure you either enjoy living in America or some country we have either saved their ass or paid their way.

 

[niranjan]

France was a female Christian military genius who indulged in warfare and claims to have been chosen by God to do so, what do you think about that?

Yeah , I have read about Joan of Arc, and I was always fascinated by her.

I believe the condemnation of her by the Church as a heretic or witch,and the subsequent burning of this noble and brave young woman in the stake, is one of the greatest crimes committed by them.



<<<<<<<For me it is quite contrary to what I've grown up to understand about Christianity, I have a story of 2 Christian priests and 1 12 year old girl who would not submit to the invading Ottoman army and preferred being tortured to death. 500 years later, a whole village in Greece on the island of Lesvos where that took place, the villagers would dream of them on Monday night and Tuesday morning so much so that it got the response of a journalist sceptic who went to investigate and found there reminds and archaeological evidence. They built a church in there name and they have been miraculously curing people of illness.
[/COLOR][/COLOR][/QUOTE]>>>>>>>>

Well, according to yogic science, intense faith, releases the dormant energies (prana) in the body, and this results in healing. I believe this must be the reason for the miraculous curing of people.

I don't have much info on the rest, so I cannot comment on it.

 

[Postmaster]

Could it be a possibility that the preaching of force was bought to the Arabs from God through Mohammed? You seem to have no problem with Joan of arc. I'm not saying it is, but im not saying its not. When i see the nature of the violence used and preached I would sway towards it being a serious theological error which can not contribute at all to anything florishing.

 

[niranjan]

Could it be a possibility that the preaching of force was bought to the Arabs from God through Mohammed? You seem to have no problem with Joan of arc. I'm not saying it is, but im not saying its not. When i see the nature of the violence used and preached I would sway towards it being a serious theological error which can not contribute at all to anything florishing.

Well , I have read no works of Joan, so I cannot comment on her mental state.

I think that the voices she heard from God, could be the activation of her superconscious mind as well, through intense faith and love for God and Jesus.

However the use of force by Joan, manifesting in war, is in the cause of self-defence , and is definetely not offensive warfare. She has also not sanctioned sadistic physical torture like chopping off fingers and limbs and other revolting stuff.

Also I have read that while she lead the French troops, she herself has not killed any enemy soldier in combat, though she was wounded a couple of times.

 

[arthra]

I just wanted to say I appreciated Naranjan's focus on the persecutions of Baha'is in the Middle East...but we Baha'is do not blame Prophet Muhammad or the Qur'an for this.

We would also differ with the statement quoted from Swami Vivekananda:

"If you read the Koran, you find the most wonderful truths mixed with superstitions. How will you explain it? That man was inspired, no doubt, but that inspiration was, as it were, stumbled upon. He was not a trained Yogi, and did not know the reason of what he was doing. Think of the good Mohammed did to the world, and think of the great evil that has been done through his fanaticism!"

As much as we can appreciate all that Swami Vivekananda did to raise the understanding of Hinduism and Vedanta philosophy we would differ with him in this regard. We accept that the Qur'an as revealed Word of God and only peoples' interpretations have been used and exploited to try to justify their fanaticism.

The principle also of the Buddha mentioned above

"Believe nothing, merely because you have been told it, or because it is traditional or because you yourselves have imagined it. ..."

Is also very much like principle in our Writings of "independent investigation of truth"

- Art

 

[Pathless]

Ah. The Baha'is--I still have trouble spelling that--are humble, peaceful folk.

 

[Pathless]

Pathless where are you at? I mean where do you live?
Heck your hatred toward America, Im sure you either enjoy living in America or some country we have either saved their ass or paid their way.

Dissidence is not the same thing as hatred, Dor. I do live in America, in a free-thinking household, in America.

My ass, as well, belongs to me. And I continue to pay and pave my own way.

 

[Postmaster]

The principle also of the Buddha mentioned above

"Believe nothing, merely because you have been told it, or because it is traditional or because you yourselves have imagined it. ..."

Is also very much like principle in our Writings of "independent investigation of truth"

If you can’t take anything to be absolute truth doesn’t that threaten monotheism?

 

[arthra]

If you can’t take anything to be absolute truth doesn’t that threaten monotheism?

Hello Postmaster!

Were you asking me?

O.K., well independent investigation of truth is something we feel is essential in the search for truth rather than just accepting what someone else tells us.

In our Faith we also believe truth is relative to the time it was revealed and that revelation is progressive. God is one (monotheism) but also unknowable for us...but we can appreciate and get some sense about reality if we seek it for ourselves.

Unfortunately for many people i would suggest that their view of God is static and what they view as absolute and never changing. Every thing changes...everything.

- Art

 

[niranjan]

I just wanted to say I appreciated Naranjan's focus on the persecutions of Baha'is in the Middle East...but we Baha'is do not blame Prophet Muhammad or the Qur'an for this.

We would also differ with the statement quoted from Swami Vivekananda:

"If you read the Koran, you find the most wonderful truths mixed with superstitions. How will you explain it? That man was inspired, no doubt, but that inspiration was, as it were, stumbled upon. He was not a trained Yogi, and did not know the reason of what he was doing. Think of the good Mohammed did to the world, and think of the great evil that has been done through his fanaticism!"

As much as we can appreciate all that Swami Vivekananda did to raise the understanding of Hinduism and Vedanta philosophy we would differ with him in this regard. We accept that the Qur'an as revealed Word of God and only peoples' interpretations have been used and exploited to try to justify their fanaticism.

Well, I have no problem with that. It is your perspective and you are free to believe in it.
We Hindus on the other hand believe in what Vivekananda has said, and we consider him to be a prophet .
Many hindus , in fact, see him as the incarnation of Shiva himself, and he is very popular in India and popular all over the world.

The principle also of the Buddha mentioned above

"Believe nothing, merely because you have been told it, or because it is traditional or because you yourselves have imagined it. ..."

Is also very much like principle in our Writings of "independent investigation of truth"

- Art

Well, if there is a principle in the Bahai writings of " independent investigation of truth "(which I know about ) then I must say it is only logical that you should have the audacity to question everything, and not accept anything just because someone said so.(including what you have stated about the quran.)

 

[Postmaster]

"Independent investigation of truth" I guess is kind of like saying everything is suggestive and fact is only existent in the ignorant mind. I buy it.

 

[zeras]

"Independent investigation of truth" I guess is kind of like saying everything is suggestive and fact is only existent in the ignorant mind. I buy it.

Asalaamulikum.

hmmm, terror? which means fear. If a bunch of people goes around spearding fear among people, it is not ovious that it is not a religion?
Seriously Allah {STW} even said no to commite sucide at all cost, yes I do understand that people when something has happened can loss their human side, but that is the stuggle (jihad), it is the inner struggle to do good at all cost and not to do evil and staying away from the exteames.

Salaamulikum
(peace be upon you)

 

[Muslimwoman]

3. (Koran 69:30-37) "It is not for any Prophet to have captives until he hath made slaughter in the land. You desire the lure of this world and Allah desires for you the hereafter and Allah is Mighty, Wise.. Now enjoy what you have won as lawful and good and keep your duty to Allah. Lo! Allah is forgiving, merciful."

This is not in 69:30-37 so where are you getting your quotes from?

4. (Koran 69:30-37) "(It will be said) Take him and fetter him and expose him to hell fire. And then insert him in a chain whereof the length is seventy cubits. Lo! he used not to believe in God the tremendous, and urged not on the feeding of the wretched. Therefore hath he no lover hear this day nor any food save filth which none but sinners eat."

Now let us put this into context niranjan. Your posts, as many people do, take certain verses from the Quran and say there you go proof, in an attempt to inflame people. This verse is taken from Sura al-haaqqa (which means the reality). I hope I am allowed to post a link so that everyone can read the whole Sura (it is quite short), it has 3 different translations so that no-one can say "oh but something is lost in translation".

USC-MSA Compendium of Muslim Texts

You begin your quotes at verse 30 - WHY? By doing this you have completely missed the point of the Sura. The Sura is about the sure reality - that is that our behaviour will count for or against us on judgement day. It tells us that on the day of judgement "not an act of yours that ye hide will be hidden". It goes on to explain that for those given their book in the left hand (ie sinners) G-d (not the Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) or Muslims) will command that he be put in hell and inserted into a chain etc. So these horrors are a part of the punishment for those sent to hell. Where exactly do you get the idea that that even remotely discusses or encourages terrorism?

You completely fail to discuss the historical context of the era, the methods of warfare and punishments for crime during that era and geographical area.

And it is these reasons, along with desire for political power, that people become misguided and use the Quran as an excuse to commit these attrocities.

You seem quite content that Joan of Arc and her army were fighting a righteous battle, yet Muslims chopping fingers off was in your opinion against morality. Joan and her army carried very sharp broadswords - do you think they killed and maimed in a nice way?

I am not saying that the Quran does not discuss war or punishments, it does and it lays down very strict rules for warfare, which was unheard of in those days. For any Muslim these days to take verses from the Quran and wreak havoc and bloodshed in the world is utterly wrong and is completely against the teachings of Islam.

As you quote carefully picked out verses from the Quran to point out how Islam promotes terror I shall respond in peace:

When they do aught that is shameful, they say: "We found our fathers doing so"; and "Allah commanded us thus": Say: "Nay, Allah never commands what is shameful: do ye say of Allah what ye know not?" (Quran 7:28)

God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)

The Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) has forbidden punishment with fire.
He once listed murder as the second of the major sins, and he even warned that on the Day of Judgment, The first cases to be adjudicated between people on the Day of Judgment will be those of bloodshed.

God commands justice and doing good and giving to relatives. And He forbids indecency and doing wrong and tyranny. He warns you so that hopefully you will pay heed. (Quran, 16:90)

And do good as God has been good to you. And do not seek to cause corruption in the earth. God does not love corrupters. (Quran, 28:77)

Be good to your parents and relatives and to orphans and the very poor, and to neighbours who are related to you and neighbours who are not related to you, and to companions and travellers and your slaves. God does not love anyone vain or boastful. (Qur'an, 4:36)

Help one another in benevolence and piety. Do not help each other to wrongdoing and enmity. And fear God. God is severe in retribution. (Qur'an, 5:2)

Gosh that really makes me want to rush out and commit murder I could go on all night quoting verses of peace from the Quran.

By the way I have been rather offended by the tone of some of your posts on this thread. I accept this is an emotional issue but please discuss Islam with respect, Muslims will be happy to discuss issues with you if you are respectful even on such a difficult topic.

Salaam