Need a context please

[Muslimwoman]

Hi Q & BlaznF

Thank you so much, I feel sure those verses will help. I was sure Christian teaching wasn't about sorrow and misery during this lifetime, it just shows what you can find when you know where to look.

Dauer thank you for the Jewish input.

So if I understand correctly the context of these verses is to show that G-d will make sinners pay and the behaviour of the men at that time was classed as sin?

So do Christians and Jews not believe Lot was a Prophet, even though G-d sent angels to protect him? Surely Lot was gifted with profound moral insight and tried to teach the sinful men G-d's way?

Am still not sure what to make of the incest issue with Lot and his daughters, as there is no mention of this in the Quran and of course G-d has forbidden incest?? Will do more reading on this, even though it's making me feel a bit sick!

Salaam

 

[dauer]

So if I understand correctly the context of these verses is to show that G-d will make sinners pay and the behaviour of the men at that time was classed as sin?

That time and place, yeah, and what's the wrong way to go about things, and the need for leadership and laws. If you look at the first line of that chapter, it starts off by saying that in those days there was no king in Israel. It was a time of lawlessness.

So do Christians and Jews not believe Lot was a Prophet, even though G-d sent angels to protect him? Surely Lot was gifted with profound moral insight and tried to teach the sinful men G-d's way?

Having an angel visit you doesn't necessarily make you a prophet in Judaism. And within Judaism you could really say that there are angels going back and forth constantly, and that they're behind everything that happens in creation. Lot's really a bit of a foil. He tries sometimes, but it never works out quite right. Like if you look at what happens with his daughters, where he commits incest with them. You also see him picking hte better land when he and Abraham split up, and it doesn't work out for him anyway. Here's a good overview:

Lot (Bible - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

Am still not sure what to make of the incest issue with Lot and his daughters, as there is no mention of this in the Quran and of course G-d has forbidden incest??

Well, one way to look at it is everything had just been destroyed, they'd fled, were living in a cave, and thought they were all that was left and had to help humans survive. Knowing their father wouldn't go along with it, they got him drunk first. Thing is, the first night he really may have been too drunk, but the second night he would have known. Lot knew about the specifics of the destruction because of what the angels said, but the text doesn't give an indication his daughters knew.

Dauer

 

[littledeer]

Goodness, it sounds like a bad translation! I haven't had time to view all the replies, I got off work late. Not every word in the Holy Books is literal, the original words are so old and translated many times. I don't mean to make light of your request and thanks so much for writing - but it struck me a little bit like a typo.
--LOVE TO THE WORLD,
Little Deer

 

[Quahom1]

The Benjamin tribe is almost destroyed by the rest of the Israelite tribes as a result of the sin. And also the tribe that didn't help in fighting the tribe of Benjamin is also almost destroyed. So the story conveys the message that not only the sinners and their protectors but also those who are passive in the face of sin are severely punished.

LOL, welcome to CR Sam.

v/r

Q

 

[Quahom1]

Well, it's important to remember not everybody in the Torah is a good guy. Lot who goes through a similar situation is a bit more of a heel. And if you look you can see that there are malachim, messengers of G!d who come to visit both he and Abraham. But they each handle things much differently. It's like Goofus and Galant. Or like from the animaniacs, good idea/bad idea. This is being setup pretty much the same way. It's not in praise of this type of activity.

Dauer

I'd have to agree with that...however it was Abraham who petitioned God on behalf of his "goofus" nephew. So he evidently saw something good, to test the resolve of God to such degree...

v/r

Q

 

[Quahom1]

Hi Q & BlaznF

Thank you so much, I feel sure those verses will help. I was sure Christian teaching wasn't about sorrow and misery during this lifetime, it just shows what you can find when you know where to look.

Dauer thank you for the Jewish input.

So if I understand correctly the context of these verses is to show that G-d will make sinners pay and the behaviour of the men at that time was classed as sin?

So do Christians and Jews not believe Lot was a Prophet, even though G-d sent angels to protect him? Surely Lot was gifted with profound moral insight and tried to teach the sinful men G-d's way?

Am still not sure what to make of the incest issue with Lot and his daughters, as there is no mention of this in the Quran and of course G-d has forbidden incest?? Will do more reading on this, even though it's making me feel a bit sick!

Salaam

You're welcome. Lot was definitely NOT a prophet. He was just plain lucky to have an uncle that cared enough about him to test God's resolve...

As far as the incest issue...well, the girls might have considered themselves outcasts, or "tainted goods", particularly after being rejected by the whole of the town's men...not wanting to become old maids, seeing mom turn into a salt shaker, and dad crying in his drink...does "dysfunctional family" come to mind?

Or maybe, Lot and his family is a perfect example of what can happen to a good family, influenced by the pressures and garbage of a godless society.

There is that to consider...

v/r

Q

 

[pattimax]

I wanted to know how this 'incident' fits into the Bible and what lesson you are meant to take from it.

Salaam

22They were making their hearts merry, when behold, the men of the city, sons of Belial (worthless scum), surrounded the house, beating at the door; and they spoke to the master of the house, the old man, saying, Bring forth the man that came into thy house, that we may know him. 23And the man, the master of the house, went out to them, and said to them, No, my brethren, I pray you, do not wickedly; seeing that this man is come into my house, do not this villany. 24Behold, my daughter, who is a virgin, and his concubine; let me bring them out, and humble ye them, and do to them as is good in your sight; but to this man do not so vile a thing. 25But the men would not hearken to him; and the man took his concubine, and brought her forth to them; and they knew her, and abused her all the night until the morning; and let her go when the morning-dawn arose. 26And the woman came at the dawning of the day, and fell down at the entrance of the man’s house where her lord was, till it was light. 27And her lord rose up in the morning, and opened the door of the house, and went out to go his way, and behold, there lay the woman his concubine at the entrance of the house, and her hands were upon the threshold. 28And he said to her, Up, and let us go; but no one answered. And he took her upon the ass; and the man rose up, and went to his place.
29And when he was come into his house, he took the knife, and laid hold on his concubine, and divided her, according to her bones, into twelve pieces, and sent her into all the borders of Israel. 30And it came to pass that every one that saw it said, There was no such deed done nor seen from the day that the children of Israel came out of Egypt to this day. Think it over, advise, and speak.
Darby New Translation

… the men of the city demanded that the host turn the Levite over to them for their homosexual indulgence. When he released the concubine to them, they abused her sexually and wantonly raped her. The Levite found her lifeless (19:25-28). As a vivid symbol of the moral breakdown in the tribes of Israel, the Levite carved her body into twelve pieces and sent one piece to each of the twelve tribes (19:29).
Cambridge Study Bible

I am so glad you asked this question.

As for your friend, he or she is probably an unhappy person who happens to be a Christian. I suggest kindness.

 

[Quahom1]

Goodness, it sounds like a bad translation! I haven't had time to view all the replies, I got off work late. Not every word in the Holy Books is literal, the original words are so old and translated many times. I don't mean to make light of your request and thanks so much for writing - but it struck me a little bit like a typo.
--LOVE TO THE WORLD,
Little Deer

If they are not literally written, then are they a figment of our imagination? I opine not. Since none of the words of Scripture damage man in anyway, and only inspire good living, I suspect every word in the Bible is true, and appropriate, for today's man. It can be proven that for every malfeasence man suffers today, the Bible warns us against behaviors that would bring on such suffering. What is non literal or erroneous about that?

Intellect is grand, except when it interferes with the quality of life that a man is entittled to. Then it becomes the error.

v/r

Q

 

[Quahom1]

22They were making their hearts merry, when behold, the men of the city, sons of Belial (worthless scum), surrounded the house, beating at the door; and they spoke to the master of the house, the old man, saying, Bring forth the man that came into thy house, that we may know him. 23And the man, the master of the house, went out to them, and said to them, No, my brethren, I pray you, do not wickedly; seeing that this man is come into my house, do not this villany. 24Behold, my daughter, who is a virgin, and his concubine; let me bring them out, and humble ye them, and do to them as is good in your sight; but to this man do not so vile a thing. 25But the men would not hearken to him; and the man took his concubine, and brought her forth to them; and they knew her, and abused her all the night until the morning; and let her go when the morning-dawn arose. 26And the woman came at the dawning of the day, and fell down at the entrance of the man’s house where her lord was, till it was light. 27And her lord rose up in the morning, and opened the door of the house, and went out to go his way, and behold, there lay the woman his concubine at the entrance of the house, and her hands were upon the threshold. 28And he said to her, Up, and let us go; but no one answered. And he took her upon the ass; and the man rose up, and went to his place.
29And when he was come into his house, he took the knife, and laid hold on his concubine, and divided her, according to her bones, into twelve pieces, and sent her into all the borders of Israel. 30And it came to pass that every one that saw it said, There was no such deed done nor seen from the day that the children of Israel came out of Egypt to this day. Think it over, advise, and speak.
Darby New Translation

… the men of the city demanded that the host turn the Levite over to them for their homosexual indulgence. When he released the concubine to them, they abused her sexually and wantonly raped her. The Levite found her lifeless (19:25-28). As a vivid symbol of the moral breakdown in the tribes of Israel, the Levite carved her body into twelve pieces and sent one piece to each of the twelve tribes (19:29).
Cambridge Study Bible

I am so glad you asked this question.

As for your friend, he or she is probably an unhappy person who happens to be a Christian. I suggest kindness.

I have a different thought Patti. The idiot "Lot" thought so little of his women, that he sent them to their death, instead of standing fast for the Lord. He should have called upon God to defend he and his house against overwhelming odds. But instead, he threw them apitizers, which they spent to death, and humilliation. Still they were not satiated, and so God blinded the lot of them. And because of a promise illicited from God by Abraham, the family was given safe passage, on condition they did not look back (at what was). In short, they were not to reminice on the life they had. But the wife, had to look back on what she was losing, and so lost her life.

The daughters were corrupted, and desperate. The only man who would accept them, was their father, no other would again touch them. And he would only do so, in a stupor (I'd say they were desperate alright). Their redemption was bringing forth new life. New, clean, holy life. Innocence in a world of debauchery. Fresh start through the life of the new born.

It was corrupted thinking (courtesy of the infleuence of the townsfolk they lived with, and a break down in family values), but it was a grasp for what was supposed to be good.

Desperate situations require desperate actions...eh?

v/r

Q

 

[pattimax]

I have a different thought Patti. The idiot "Lot" thought so little of his women, that he sent them to their death, instead of standing fast for the Lord. He should have called upon God to defend he and his house against overwhelming odds. But instead, he threw them apitizers, which they spent to death, and humilliation. Still they were not satiated, and so God blinded the lot of them. And because of a promise illicited from God by Abraham, the family was given safe passage, on condition they did not look back (at what was). In short, they were not to reminice on the life they had. But the wife, had to look back on what she was losing, and so lost her life.

The daughters were corrupted, and desperate. The only man who would accept them, was their father, no other would again touch them. And he would only do so, in a stupor (I'd say they were desperate alright). Their redemption was bringing forth new life. New, clean, holy life. Innocence in a world of debauchery. Fresh start through the life of the new born.

It was corrupted thinking (courtesy of the infleuence of the townsfolk they lived with, and a break down in family values), but it was a grasp for what was supposed to be good.

Desperate situations require desperate actions...eh?

v/r

Q

Just because the question is asked and I get to read all the opinions, do you think I agree with weirdness? JEEZE!

Desparate actions indeed.

 

[Quahom1]

Just because the question is asked and I get to read all the opinions, do you think I agree with weirdness? JEEZE!

Desparate actions indeed.

Sorry, I think you read me wrong. I was simply commenting (adding my two cents).

v/r

Q

 

[pattimax]

Just because the question is asked and I get to read all the opinions, do you think I agree with weirdness? JEEZE!

Desparate actions indeed.

As a vivid symbol of the moral breakdown in the tribes of Israel...
I did read you wrong.

Karen
(meant to quote you, Q)

p.s. opinions are like belly buttons...

 

[Quahom1]

As a vivid symbol of the moral breakdown in the tribes of Israel...
I did read you wrong.

Karen
(meant to quote you, Q)

p.s. opinions are like belly buttons...

eh, they all got lint in them?...lol

 

[pattimax]

eh, they all got lint in them?...lol

Something like that.

 

[pattimax]

Still they were not satiated, and so God blinded the lot of them. And because of a promise illicited from God by Abraham, the family was given safe passage, on condition they did not look back (at what was). In short, they were not to reminice on the life they had. But the wife, had to look back on what she was losing, and so lost her life.

Would you tell me more about this?

 

[Quahom1]

Would you tell me more about this?

Well, only my take on the issue. The men were blinded so that the "good" could escape further corruption. God warned Lot, "do not look back", in otherwords do not pine for what you had. It wasn't that good to begin with, and it will only hasten your demise. But Lot's wife turned and looked back, and was destroyed with the town. She was turned to salt (a distinct and deadly poison...Sodium Chloride).

Lot, lost everything. He gave up everything that was good in his family, due to his laizez faire attitude. That his life was even spared was due to the heartfelt prayers of a godly family member. And even then it was close...

Lot was a coward, and a fool. He was spared by the pleadings of a righteous man (who used up most of his good graces with God, just to save him).

But Lot is also an example to us, of what not to be. Because we (besides losing our shirt), can cause others to suffer, and we can cause others to come to task before our Maker, just because we are lacksidazical, in our dealings with life, and God.

Lot's daughters' dealings with him just added insult to injury.

I think, Lot's lot, is a warning to families today...don't be complacent.

v/r

Q

 

[Muslimwoman]

Having an angel visit you doesn't necessarily make you a prophet in Judaism. And within Judaism you could really say that there are angels going back and forth constantly, and that they're behind everything that happens in creation.

Hi Dauer, sorry I put that very badly. I beleive I have 2 angels with me constantly, recording my good and bad deeds but of course I do not think in any way that I am a Prophet. I have never really looked into the story of Lot and as a Muslim am simply told he is one of the Prophets, so I have emailed a couple of Islamic sheikhs in the UK for their opinion of Lot and what message they feel Lot brought from G-d, because quite frankly this story is disturbing me. If I get an answer I shall post it for discussion.

Salaam
MW

 

[Muslimwoman]

Hi Q

I think I would much rather accept this view than the alternative:

Or maybe, Lot and his family is a perfect example of what can happen to a good family, influenced by the pressures and garbage of a godless society.

I am so glad you asked this question.

Hi Patti

Quite frankly I wish I hadn't come across the verse, it is really bothering me now. Thank you for the quotes, they have put things into a little more perspective for me. So what is your take on the 'moral of the story'?

As for your friend, he or she is probably an unhappy person who happens to be a Christian. I suggest kindness.

This is my view as well, hence the desire for Christian verses to try to cheer them up and move them away from this 'doom and gloom' attitude they are sinking into.

 

[pattimax]

Lot and his family is a perfect example of what can happen to a good family, influenced by the pressures and garbage of a godless society.


Quite frankly I wish I hadn't come across the verse, it is really bothering me now. Thank you for the quotes, they have put things into a little more perspective for me. So what is your take on the 'moral of the story'?

quote]


I think your analysis is good. This is an absolutely heart-breaking story, but it doesn’t need to bother you. It actually shines light by revealing what our hearts are capable of when poisons (choose) infiltrate. I don’t like it either.

The last verse in that book ends in a way that sums up what our current situation can be; “…, everyone did what was right in his own eyes.” Judges 21:25b

As for your friend(s), how about 1 John 4:7-8 7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 8 He who does not love does not know God, for God is love.

It’s rather heavy on love, however when you are in that state of mind it is good to stay focused on what truly matters.

 

[Muslimwoman]

It’s rather heavy on love, however when you are in that state of mind it is good to stay focused on what truly matters.

Thank you for the verses, I do hope these will lift their spirits.

I think I may just avoid Judges in future, even the final sentence you gave me doesn't help, it says little for the 'condition' of mankind. I shall just try not think too much about it because even after loads of reading I still don't feel there is anything positive to be gained from this story.

Salaam