juantoo3
....whys guy.... ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb
Kindest Regards, Tao!
I am pleased to see how this thread is developing with the depth that it is!![Smile :) :)](data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7)
![Big Grin :D :D](data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7)
I suppose what I get from my comparison is not that the Tao would speak of universal law, the Tao is the universal law. Still, much as you allude to, universal laws cannot fundamentally be broken. Gravity, for instance, is still gravity, and bodies will gravitationally attract each other and so influence each other. Gravity is only one universal law. In that sense, yes we are all subject to the Tao / universal law and cannot avoid otherwise except in minuscule and temporary ways.
I am wondering...I find myself ready to discard the baby with the bathwater pertaining to social guidance. But I have to correct myself...it is not the social guidance that is the culprit, it is the misuse of social guidance by less than scrupulous persons. The gun doesn't kill, it is the human aiming and pulling the trigger that kills. It is the continuing misuse of social guidance by persons willing to do so for power, wealth, fame or ???, that is the culprit. In other words, the culprit is us.
![Big Grin :D :D](data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7)
I realize religion in general suffers from much the same problems, yet there is still a continuity that remains. Will science be here in 3 or 4 generations? Probably, but I wonder how much different it will look. Will religion still be here in 3 or 4 generations? Probably, and while it likely will adapt to changes in the times and knowledge, there is still an underlying wholesomeness that will remain. At least, I sure hope so.
![Wink ;) ;)](data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7)
I am pleased to see how this thread is developing with the depth that it is!
Here is a major (pun-ish me if you like)) difference between us.
Ah! The quantum "spooky-action-at-a-distance" thing, web of life and all. OK, I can see that. Good point about prayer, etc., although I have also seen reference along a similar vein in Paganism...that thoughts are things (or can become things). I suppose in my own way I believe similar, in that I do think we become what we believe of ourselves...but I always considered that psychology, not particularly spiritual. Then again, maybe I missed the point.I simply do not believe in miracles or angels of any kind. I do believe that the reality that we operate on is greater than that commonly perceived and it is this that results in what may appear to be miracles or prayers answered...for example. But these are natural phenomena not divine. Although we appear to operate on 4 dimensional planes I suspect the truth is we use several more without ever truly being aware of it. This is why prayer is sometimes effective. If you imagine for a moment that we are not separate entities but are part of a 'soup' of intercommunicating matter then its quite easy to visualise how a prayer is like a signal to what I'd compare to a central nervous system. Repeat that prayer often enough and with sufficient will then it is picked up and the "whole" sets in motion what is required to remedy it. Of course most prayer is half-hearted mantra or thoughtless repetition and never registers on the nerve endings. I think will is key to this. Will is a powerful force that keeps people alive when they should by rights die, and the opposite too. Where its absence lets people die who need not. But I digress.
Minor digression, but I always envision the Silver Surfer when I think of the Tao. Meaning, why leave my course to fate and whim...why not hop on my board and chart my course?The Tao in its appreciation that that that is is unfathomable, ungraspable and impenetrable comes closest to my own way of thinking....as you might guess... of anything that might be considered a religion. Which it is not.... to my mind anyway. To me the Tao, as a philosophy, does not speak of 'universal law' but of the proper governance of man for man. But as water cannot flow uphill so man cannot fundamentally go against what the parameters of greater nature permit.
I suppose what I get from my comparison is not that the Tao would speak of universal law, the Tao is the universal law. Still, much as you allude to, universal laws cannot fundamentally be broken. Gravity, for instance, is still gravity, and bodies will gravitationally attract each other and so influence each other. Gravity is only one universal law. In that sense, yes we are all subject to the Tao / universal law and cannot avoid otherwise except in minuscule and temporary ways.
Yet, we run great risk in completely divorcing ourselves from human law, at least so long as we live in a social civilized setting. I understand misgivings with abuse of power in the name of Divine Sanction, I think many of us here at least pay lip service to acknowledgment of this human problem. Still, I can't help but wonder the underlying *need* for such human endeavor. I have heard allusion to morality being the logical extension of what is best for a society to progress as a whole; yet that seems to me too simple, almost trite. There is certainly enough ambiguity and diversity between cultures over what is moral and what is not...yet I still am not satisfied that our encompassing desire for moral guidelines is anything less than Divinely inspired. Morality is too contrary to our selfish predilections. Morality isn't about what is good for me (or you), morality is about what is good for us.Even child murder is a crime within humanity and not a sin before nature. I cannot and do not subscribe to the elevation of mans law to universal law. And further I feel that it is the effort to do this that results in religiously motivated atrocities. It may seem pretty obvious that religious differences result in the claim of divine sanction to behave against humanity but it seems to me few people actually care to see that this will never cease to be the case till our spirituality is totally divorced from human law.
Reacting to conditions is fundamental to adaptation. Of course, I would think this would have to be more or less a large scale event. One bacteria morphing is nothing if the morph isn't passed to the next generation. This is also the root problem with "lone wolf" reasoning, a complete divorce from social guidance.Again if you imagine for a moment that both the bacteria and us are a part of the same 'soup' then they could well be interacting pro-actively. They may not be concious and have the illusion of independence we do, (you only have to realise the importance of ecosystems to realise we are not at all independent), but I feel fairly certain given a battery of info I've read down the years that even humble bacteria react and respond to conditions.
I am wondering...I find myself ready to discard the baby with the bathwater pertaining to social guidance. But I have to correct myself...it is not the social guidance that is the culprit, it is the misuse of social guidance by less than scrupulous persons. The gun doesn't kill, it is the human aiming and pulling the trigger that kills. It is the continuing misuse of social guidance by persons willing to do so for power, wealth, fame or ???, that is the culprit. In other words, the culprit is us.
I know you meant no offense, and I took no offense. Recently I was asked what I would do if I had been called arrogant, considering I had brought it to another's attention that they had moments of arrogance. I can be arrogant, I know this. It is a weakness of mine I struggle with, and often give in to, usually when I am met with arrogance. That is one of my own personal issues, and I must be honest with myself when facing it.Juantoo, forgive me if I ever come across as personal in such debates and let me assure you I never am. I wholly respect your views and opinions and value the thinking they force me into. I am not here to deride or belittle anybody nor their ideas and beliefs. I come here because I find debate on these never-solvable questions fun and stimulating. Of course some I have little patience with but even then I endeavour to be respectful even when what I hear I find laughable. I know I do not always succeed but I do try![]()
In essence I agree. The can of worms is for those bound in superstition. But the reverse is also true, and equally fraught. So again, it is balance with commonsense that is necessary when considering such things. We speak here of Quantum entanglements...that is the current vogue of science. Yet science is notoriously fickle, what will tomorrow say of Quantum science? In our lifetimes that is perhaps the best understanding science may hope to offer us, but generations from now it may all be moot. Such is the limitation of science, and words for that matter, in trying to convey what we are to each other. Perhaps these words we write here will not be seen by our great-grandchildren; but if they were, would they still mean the same things?Science is not a spiritual quest I agree but it has opened up can after can of worms for the churches. Spiritual and common wisdom has no effect on science. Science can does give added dimension to the whole that we know, and the rate of growth of human knowledge is phenomenal. For those of us enquiring and individualistic enough to take what we need from where we find it this presents no issues. I do not and will never be an advocate for science as a spiritual discipline but it is our most powerful tool to...as I said in my last post... wonder at its profundity. So for someone like me it strengthens my belief in the existence of that super-entity we debate about.
I realize religion in general suffers from much the same problems, yet there is still a continuity that remains. Will science be here in 3 or 4 generations? Probably, but I wonder how much different it will look. Will religion still be here in 3 or 4 generations? Probably, and while it likely will adapt to changes in the times and knowledge, there is still an underlying wholesomeness that will remain. At least, I sure hope so.
Ecstatic experience is precisely why I hope the core of religion stays the same.Yes creation is invariably an ecstatic experience to behold or partake in.