Who teaches religious aggrogance?

[Vajradhara]

Namaste Muslimwoman,

thank you for the post.

1. Who teaches religious arrogance? By that I mean the "we are right and everyone else is wrong" attitude? Does it originate with G-d requiring one religious belief throughout mankind or the Prophets (pbut) trying to increase the numbers of followers, or the religious leaders that seek power in this lifetime or with followers needing to be right? (before anyone gets offended my question is not designed to 'question' G-d, just our understanding of His requirements).

i would have to say that it stems, in a religious sense, from a religious ideology that purports to be the "only truth" or "only *correct* path" once a human is convinced that they are right and that those that disagree are wrong, things become tense. couple with this with a, in some cases, divine mandate to "covert the heathen" and it is a recipe for intolerace and fascism.

ultimately, of course, this is all related to humans and how they choose to conduct themselves.

2. Why do people feel that G-d chose to create many nations, yet believe G-d wants us all to follow the same religion?

it is, essentially, the same thing as above except here we find the insertion of the human ego to a much larger degree. accepting the premis of the question, this would seem to indicate that humans knew better than God how God wanted humans to worship. hubris, pure hubris.

3. Do you find that people who "find G-d" on their own are more moderate in their views (ie they have not been influenced by the specific teachings of a church or teacher)?

Look forward to your answers.

Salaam

well.. it depends on if they stay independent in their thought or if they choose to conform to the more main stream, shall we say, views of their tradition. generally speaking, though, i think that this is a matter of individual temperment more than anything else.

metta,

~v

 

[Muslimwoman]

ultimately, of course, this is all related to humans and how they choose to conduct themselves.

as salaam aleykum Vajradhara

Thank you for joining the discussion. I think this is why I called the thread "who teaches religious arrogance", rather than intolerance. I see these 'holier than thou' attitudes as man made arrogance. My personal view is that G-d did not create any man or woman 'better' than any other, no matter their mental capacity, religion, physical attributes, colour or gender. Yes, all men sin and do good to varying degrees, which may deminish or uplift them but this is through choice.

accepting the premis of the question, this would seem to indicate that humans knew better than God how God wanted humans to worship. hubris, pure hubris.

Well said. I feel this is well demonstrated in the various interpretations of scriptures. Of course our scholars know better than G-d what He intended to say and clearly G-d just has a problem expressing Himself. Sometimes I am truly ashamed to be human.

well.. it depends on if they stay independent in their thought or if they choose to conform to the more main stream, shall we say, views of their tradition. generally speaking, though, i think that this is a matter of individual temperment more than anything else.

I have thought about this rather a lot over the last couple of days and must agree with you. I have met converts who were more extreme than born Muslims (they seem to want to deeply adhere to something, anything would do) and yet I have met converts who seem to see the true and original peaceful path.

Salaam

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

Having been accused myself many times of being an arrogant prick, I would say that the perceived arrogance often lies merely in one's refusal to bend the knee.

Chris

 

[Muslimwoman]

Having been accused myself many times of being an arrogant prick, I would say that the perceived arrogance often lies merely in one's refusal to bend the knee.

Chris

Well said Chris.

I know here we, as Muslims, are told by our faith to be modest and humble. Now we just have to try actually learning the lesson. The men here are so proud that the humble farmer prays side by side with the town governor. Then they leave the mosque and the governor would not piddle on the farmer were he on fire.

Salaam

 

[Vajradhara]

there often seems to be a great show to demonstrate how inclusive and egalatarian ones religious practice is whilst the fruits of said practice rarely seem to be in season.

i think that this is not confined to any particular tradition, however.

i suppose that the most that i can say is that the question of religion is important and it is worthwhile for every human to investigate and come to their own conclusions regarding these issues.

metta,

~v

 

[Saltmeister]

Having been accused myself many times of being an arrogant prick, I would say that the perceived arrogance often lies merely in one's refusal to bend the knee.

Chris

Well said!!!

If there is a weapon against religious arrogance that works, it is by punishment, reprimand, scolding, embarrassment in public and a red face -- being told that we're rude, inpolite, arrogant pricks and have a disgusting, revolting attitude to other people.

After the ordeal we become a more refined person. Humiliation is one of the tools for discipline against religious arrogance as it is a medicine guaranteed to instil humility in a person. If you want people to be tolerant and humble towards people of other faiths they have to be pounded into submission. That is how government officials in Imperial China were kept in line. They were beaten into obedience!!!

One should never be too proud to kow tow.

 

[Muslimwoman]

One should never be too proud to kow tow.

And yet we spend our lives being taught not to.

Does anyone feel that arrogance simply comes with a belief in being right? We have to accept that religion is a circular discussion. G-d says we are right, because our Book says so, G-d wrote our Book, therefore it must be right.

If this is where the arrogance comes from then is there any way to combat it, as our belief in G-d and our Prophet, is a must to be a faithful follower? Sounds like a catch 22 to me.

Just to put the cat among the pigeons. Did G-d Himself create this problem by giving us more than one Prophet or is it a human failing, because we are unable to do as we are told and arrogance makes us twist the word of G-d to 'confirm' how right we are?

 

[LeoSalinas22]

hi muslim,

Just to put the cat among the pigeons. Did G-d Himself create this problem by giving us more than one Prophet or is it a human failing, because we are unable to do as we are told and arrogance makes us twist the word of G-d to 'confirm' how right we are?

i think it is a human failing. what are your thoughts on the Tower of Babel in Genesis 11 1-9? its a similar situation don't you think? verse 6 stands out the most:

Genesis 11:6 And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.

hope it makes sense. peace be upon you...

 

[Muslimwoman]

hope it makes sense. peace be upon you...

wa aleykum salaam Leo

Thank you, I had to go and look up the whole thing. I can see why in this story G-d would change the tongues of men but how then could those men receive the true message of G-d, sent in the scriptures but only in one language?

 

[elme]

The story about the Tower of Babel reminds me of a speech the Imam made at my wedding with my Christian family in the audience. He quoted the verse from the Scripture and explained that it is, in fact, a blessing. It teaches and challenges us to bridge gaps between different schools of thought. It should reap tolerance and understanding.It encourages humility and an awareness that we all love the very same thing. Peace and harmony and freedom to fulfill our pure spiritual desire.When people want to 'be right' and dictate 'an only way' then I think that they're not living true to the message of the given Word. I really think that it's about being honest . . . with yourself. How can arrogance even be a virtue of the pious ... ? Get real. Dig deep and listen to the common sense God gave us. And consult the Scriptures without an agenda .... it is not a legal manual to be referred to to win on technicalities .... Truly, this is what i see sometimes, alot!

But Im tired of typing now ... ask if you are not clear on what I just said or disagree or if you need elaboration. I have to design a few pages now ...

peace and light and love love love

 

[Muslimwoman]

Ameen sister Elme, what a great interpretation of the story.

It is so nice to hear from you again, hope you are well and happy.

Salaam

 

[LeoSalinas22]

wa aleykum salaam Leo

Thank you, I had to go and look up the whole thing. I can see why in this story G-d would change the tongues of men but how then could those men receive the true message of G-d, sent in the scriptures but only in one language?

hi mw,
sorry, i have this nasty habit of seeing God in patterns or sequences. i sort of see Him like times and seasons. if He has done it before then He will do it again. in this case from the way i read the Tower of Babel account is that He separated man because man, when we are one, nothing can get in our way. when we are one, we can do anything we set our mind to. so if we were all one religion or thought, imagine what man could accomplish! so God confounds us so that we may truly seek Him and not take the easy way around. what would be the point if we did that? anyways, elme explained it very well. i couldn't have explained it better! i know how you feel about people who try to know what God actually thinks. i feel the same way. just trying to understand Him, thats all. but you do ask a good question. who teaches religious arrogance? we do. not God. God loves the humble. He hates the proud. hope that explains and i hope i don't sound like a nutcase. thanks for reading and peace be upon you...

 

[wil]

Ameen sister Elme, what a great interpretation of the story.

It is so nice to hear from you again, hope you are well and happy.

Salaam

I'm gonna toss in a big ditto on it all. Wonderful input mo, and so absolutely awesome what your Imam said at your nuptials. What compassion knowing the trepidation of your family with your recent conversion, the mixture of faiths in the audience...beautiful sentiment one that all should grasp and hold.

Big hug, and great to see you 'round the boards don't be a stranger!

 

[Muslimwoman]

hope that explains and i hope i don't sound like a nutcase. thanks for reading and peace be upon you...

wa aleykum salaam Leo

A nutcase? No way, you brought up a great story that I was not aware of and sister Elme added an explanation that makes that story very clear. I love to learn, so thank you for bringing the story to my attention. It is indeed true, G-d works in mysterious ways and has given us the tools to find Him, we just have to take time and communicate with each other to put the pieces of the puzzle together.

Salaam
MW