KarimK said:
The fact that it prevents suicide bombings does not justify it.
could we not agree that it justifies the principle if not the actual practice, or is that just splitting hairs? i mean, as far as i'm concerned saving life overrides other considerations, but if the wall is used (as it demonstrably has been) to further political goals and create "facts on the ground" then the israelis are creating a stick for their own back later on - but then again, i'd say that's a specialty of almost everyone in the middle east.
The Palestinian people are living in a cage. Literally, it's an open-sky prison.
ok, but don't they also have a border with jordan? the gazans have a sea coast and a border with egypt as well. again, i'm not applauding the policy or the practice but surely even if the israeli border is closed, it doesn't necessarily follow that everywhere is closed, or am i being stupid and do the israelis control the jordanian border - i think they probably do.
I'll spare you the tedious *blahblahblah apartheid blahblahblah ghetto* talk. I don't think we can compare what is happening here with South Africa.
what a relief. it bores the arse off me as well as insulting the intelligence of everyone concerned.
But the wall is separating families, people, villages.
like i said above - it's better than not having it in principle, but in practice, it has been hijacked to further the aims of the "facts on the ground" brigade.
It is a hindrance. Not a mild hindrance. It swallowed up a whole part of my horizon. And if there's one thing I don't like, it's having one part of my very beautiful bethlehemite (hm?) horizon disappearing. The first few months, I'd feel completely asphyxiated whenever I saw the wall.
but the wall has two sides. if it upsets you this much and is that much of a visual blot, the israeli side will eventually, regardless of the political implications, come to feel the same way. and, like i said, we should *all* be treating the wall as temporary. when the israelis no longer have to worry about suicide bombers (like when the islamic political establishment finally grasp the fact that any kind of direct or indirect justification actually makes the prospect of a palestinian state *recede*) then it can be dismantled.
This wall constantly reminds me of how animal I - we - are. I got used to it. Now, I can walk next to the wall and not feel shadowed or scared or not have a claustrophobic attack anymore. Because it's normal. It's like a dog in a cage. I honestly think that I'd feel lost if suddenly the wall disappeared.
as i said before, i can't believe it will be long before research reports start noticing this on the other side - the israelis are also building themselves into a cage.
The wall is blatantly disregarding tons of basic human rights. and the worst thing is the Israeli government is doing it so ... carelessly, you know? It's like, they can afford to do, they will do it, and they really don't care what others think.
*sigh*... you know the phrase "oom schmoom", right? if anyone else wants to know, it basically translates as "UN? human rights? international law? HA! if we were all about to be murdered nobody would lift a finger to save us, like happened in germany. and it's hardly changed recently, look at bosnia, rwanda and darfur and two of those involved muslims, so who cares what the goyim think? they all not very secretly hate us anyway and i'd rather not die, thank you very much."
Oh! nice detail! Whenever you come to Israel just GO check out the Bethlehem check-point. I honestly think the Ministry of Tourism has some sort of sick sense of humor.
i don't think israeli bureaucrats have any sense of humour at all. or irony, or self-consciousness. israel is turning into a banana republic.
BB, I really hope one day you can cross a check-point like the one we have in Bethlehem. I think you'll change your mind once you've done that.
i don't think you and i are that much in disagreement, you know. i don't like checkpoints any more than you do. and i've got mates and family that have had to mind them and they find it all rather scary and would frankly prefer to be doing something else, but if they don't do it, what happens?
i don't want to get into a big debate about the wall and checkpoints because we've only just started talking, but suffice it to say i think we have a certain amount in common and a lot more to talk about.
b'shalom
bananabrain
