Meaning of trinity

[BlaznFattyz]

But Jesus answered them, "My Father is at work until now, so I am at work."

For this reason the Jews tried all the more to kill him, because he not only broke the sabbath but he also called God his own father, making himself equal to God.

Jesus answered and said to them, "Amen, amen, I say to you, a son cannot do anything on his own, but only what he sees his father doing; for what he does, his son will do also.

For the Father loves his Son and shows him everything that he himself does, and he will show him greater works than these, so that you may be amazed.

For just as the Father raises the dead and gives life, so also does the Son give life to whomever he wishes.

Nor does the Father judge anyone, but he has given all judgment to his Son, so that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.

Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes in the one who sent me has eternal life and will not come to condemnation, but has passed from death to life.

Amen, amen, I say to you, the hour is coming and is now here when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

For just as the Father has life in himself, so also he gave to his Son the possession of life in himself.

And he gave him power to exercise judgment, because he is the Son of Man.

I believe and speak for all those who hear, believe, honor, and worship, and have life in and through Jesus Christ, the Son of God. And because I honor the Son, I honor the Father who sent him. Because I am a sinner, Christ died for me that I may pass from death to life, and in him is my salvation. For there is no salvation in any one else, but God.

 

[Saltmeister]

But Jesus answered them, "My Father is at work until now, so I am at work."

Jesus answered and said to them, "Amen, amen, I say to you, a son cannot do anything on his own, but only what he sees his father doing; for what he does, his son will do also.

For the Father loves his Son and shows him everything that he himself does, and he will show him greater works than these, so that you may be amazed.

For just as the Father raises the dead and gives life, so also does the Son give life to whomever he wishes.

Nor does the Father judge anyone, but he has given all judgment to his Son, so that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.

I believe Jesus was purely human. However, he was also an expression of God; God expressing Himself. That I think, was what JosephM was getting at when he said that the Word is a manifestation/expression of that which "was God." Whatever people saw in the Word, therefore, was identified as being of the "character of God."

Jesus was an expression of God in the sense that his life, attitudes and beliefs could be identified as coming from the character of God Himself, so although Jesus may not have been literally, physically or materially God in substance, he functioned as God, fulfilling the same role as God, and therefore he was God expressing Himself.

That is perhaps what is meant when it is said that "the Son does anything which he sees His own Father doing." This is one being observing another and emulating Him in his attitude, life and beliefs, so that he stands for and represents the same purpose as the other, as if the two were one and the same.

This is perhaps why we read about Jesus talking and praying to God. It doesn't in any way undermine God in any way as God's own role and agenda is being acted out in someone lesser than Himself, much to God's credit. Those that suggest that Jesus wasn't God, therefore, aren't really undermining the Christian concept of God, but are really suggesting that God could create something that could observe Him and act Him out accordingly. This was possible because Jesus personally knew God. He had lived with God in heaven. Unlike the rest of us, he was not born of Adam, but came from heaven.

God sends Jesus as an Actor, someone sent to act like Himself, and takes credit for delegating someone to perform that role. The idea of The Great Actor is really just another way of approaching the concept of God Incarnate, as a person who is an expression of God can be just as much of a God Incarnate as one who is literally God -- fully man and God. In the former, the person is not fully God, but expresses the full meaning of God to the people with which he interacts; God's personality flows through that person.

That is what I think it means when it is said that "the Logos became flesh and dwelt among us."

I'm not sure if that is BlaznFattyz's point here, but that is the view that's formed from what I've read in the New Testament.

Mee speaks as a Christian for himself as I do for myself but Do you speak for Christianity or as a Christian for yourself

Mee speaks through the Watchtower, you speak through your own perspective, and BF is not alone by speaking through the bible.

I don't think it's wrong to speak for yourself. That is not to say we're not using the Bible. I think it's actually more important that we're speaking for ourselves.

Jesus spoke of and for the Father but at the same time he was speaking for himself in terms of what he knew and believed about the role the Father had given him. The same goes for the apostles and authors of the New Testament. They spoke for themselves in terms of the roles they understood, believed or thought they were serving. It is the sincerity, honesty, intent, purpose and integrity of these claims in the New Testament that I think is important, as well as their rationality.

Likewise, for those of us living in the 21st century, we can speak for ourselves in the same way as those who lived in the past spoke for themselves. The idea is to do so under the same pattern or example, as those who have come before us, as whatever life was attained by them can also be attained by us. The purpose of the Bible is to remind us of the lives they lived, so that we can emulate their attitudes, beliefs and dreams and live as they did. We are to live with the same rationality as those in the past.

The great heroes we revere were just ordinary people.

 

[pattimax]

I don't think it's wrong to speak for yourself. That is not to say we're not using the Bible. I think it's actually more important that we're speaking for ourselves.

It is wrong if you don't know what you are talking about.

 

[BlaznFattyz]

There is no need for me to use words that no one understands, instead the bible makes perfectly clear for those that want to set aside preconceived notions and clever philosophical terminology and with a humble heart see that the God speaks to us through his Son who was always with him. Let the spirit guide you to truth.

Without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen by angels, preached among the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up in glory.

If God is manifest in the flesh, then it is God who walked among us in bodily form. For if Jesus was without sin, and was holy and righteous, these are attributes for God alone, yet here we see the man that walked among us with these same attributes. There is no other that God the Father has proclaimed as his Son , who he gives glory and honor to, and says all will bow down and proclaim him Lord.

And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth; we have beheld his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father. (John bore witness to him, and cried, "This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me ranks before me, for he was before me.'") And from his fullness have we all received, grace upon grace. For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. No one has ever seen God; the only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has made him known.

Jesus being before John is because Jesus is I AM--The one who was there in the beginning laying the foundations of the world. The one that came as a man of sorrows, because man rejects God, he was given up in place of a criminal, yet his love for us saved us by dying on the cross for us, so we might be saved through God's grace. Grace is only given to us by God yet we see it is given through Jesus so we might have life through him.

And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed. And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Throughout the bible, angels told men and prophets not to worship them, but God alone; yet throughout the bible Jesus is worshipped and he receives it. And God even says let all the angels worship him. Those that worship Jesus worship the One who sent him, those who honor Jesus, honor the One that sent him. Only God has the power to give life, yet here we see that life is given though the name of Jesus Christ. Those that believe in the Son have eternal life.

All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows who the Son is except the Father, and no one knows who the Father is except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

These verses are like God the Father looking into a mirror and the image given is Jesus Christ. Whatever the father does, Jesus also does because he is the mirror image of the Father in heaven and does what the Father does. If God is salvation, Jesus is salvation; if God is life, Jesus is life; if God is holy, righteous, and true, then Jesus is holy, righteous, and true; if God glorifies the son, then Jesus glorifies the Father. And we see that God shares his glory with no one, yet Jesus is given glory and power, that is because Jesus is God. He is the only one who has intimate knowledge of him who has seen him, being in the bosom of the Father, the begotten Son of God, the Lamb who sits on the throne of God as Lord God and Saviour whose name is above all names.

 

[Postmaster]

I might extend a bit on the salvation discussion to say that Baha'is do not believe in hell, that all souls progress eternally toward God, but in that you can see both good and bad news. Good news...all progress eternally, bad news...you do not have the immediate and full reunion with God that Christianity promises. And yes, it is based upon works in this life. How well off we are in the next life depends upon how well we develop our virtues in this this. Baha'is will compare it to being born crippled in the next life if we, say, fail to be as chaste in this life as God wishes us to be. I found this to be cold comfort as a Baha'i when I was really struggling with some issues in my life.

Lunamoth I used to go to a Saturday Greek school as a child and we had a Greek Orthodox priest that would visit and give some classes short lectures on the Christian faith and we would throw some questions at him. One question I threw at him was about the after life, it isn't till now at 23 I realise his view is heretical. He basically disagreed with hell and described it as being distant from God or being blind in the next life. Kind of similar to the Baha'i teachings which I'm sure he wasn’t aware of. That priest as I remember him was an exceptional person.

How far can we push the herecy in Christianity and get away with it? Am I going to hell if I believe in evoloution or don't believe in hell in the same sense as the scriptures?

 

[Postmaster]

"The Bible tells us how to go to heaven, not how the heavens go." - Galileo

 

[Neemai]

I see the Word of God as the Christ, who was manifest in the person of Jesus of Nazareth. There are other Christians who might explain things differently or add some more to my explanation... I think some might possibly discuss the term "Elohim" or some other Words....

InPeace,
InLove

Thanks InLove & JM for the replies. Without going too much off thread, Vaishnavism belief is that there is a direct connection between God and His names, so I was wondering if this quote had a similar connection in terms of Christianity. As with names such as Elohim or terms such as Halleujah being vocal expressions, through which we can directly relate to the Supreme Lord...

... Neemai

 

[pattimax]

How far can we push the herecy in Christianity and get away with it? Am I going to hell if I believe in evoloution or don't believe in hell in the same sense as the scriptures?

Good question. I struggled with this. I grew up steeped in evolution. But as I have developed a deeper and closer relationship with God through His Word and seeking His Way and Wisdom with all of my heart, mind, and soul, the hell questions have faded and have been replaced with the desire to show as many people the way to heaven as possible.

I think the hell questions are going to answer themselves. Personally, I find it very freeing to not to pretend to know.

 

[pattimax]

BTW: I think God loves it when you ask HIM good questions, just be prepared to wait for the answer.

 

[Postmaster]

What if the answer isn't through Christinity?

 

[pattimax]

What if it is and you're not listening?

 

[Postmaster]

That’s a possibility

 

[JosephM]

There is no need for me to use words that no one understands, instead the bible makes perfectly clear for those that want to set aside preconceived notions and clever philosophical terminology and with a humble heart see that the God speaks to us through his Son who was always with him. Let the spirit guide you to truth.

BF,
If the "bible makes perfectly clear" why then is there over 1000 divisions and denominations in Christianity? Unless of course we accuse all those who disagree with our interpretation of not setting aside preconceived notions and clever philosophical terminology. Are we so dogmatic that we miss the true mystery of the message?

(snip)

If God is manifest in the flesh, then it is God who walked among us in bodily form. For if Jesus was without sin, and was holy and righteous, these are attributes for God alone, yet here we see the man that walked among us with these same attributes. There is no other that God the Father has proclaimed as his Son , who he gives glory and honor to, and says all will bow down and proclaim him Lord.

Has not God always walked around in bodily form so to speak? Otherwise, why would Jesus say.
Matthew 25:40
And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

God has forgiven my sins. Am I not then also holy and righteous in God's eyes and walking around with these same attributes? Or shall I be foolish and retain that which God has forgiven? Are they attributes for God alone or does he manifest them in his children?

1 John 3:2
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Is it robbery that I should also be considered a son of God. When he shall appear shall I not be like him?

(snip)

Perhaps I am using clever philisophical terminology in your eyes. nevertheless, I remain your brother in Christ and Love and Peace,

JM

 

[InLove]

Neemai, have you considered starting a thread in either Belief & Spirituality or Comparative Studies on this subject?

As for Names of God, the term "Adonai" is beautiful to me. When I speak it, I am filled with the most inexplicable certainty that the Love of God lives. Perhaps this is more along the lines of what you were asking?

InPeace,
InLove

 

[Thomas]

Hello Neemai —

"In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God."

Could anyone help with a Christian understanding of this quotation?

"What is man, that thou art mindful of him?"
Hebrews 2:6

As God is Absolute, Infinite, Transcendant ... God is beyond all definition, all distinction, all determination ... in short, God cannot be known, conceived or comprehended. What is man, as the sacred scribe asks, that he should, like Icarus, dare to assume he even has the right to ask such a question?

God is beyond all knowing.
Unless God chooses to be known.

This idea then, of Divine Revelation is what we understand by the term 'Verbum' — The Word — which signifies precisely that self-disclosure of the Deity.

In Trinitartian terms:
The Father speaks the Word, that He is;
The Son receives the Word, that He is;
The Spirit is the Word.

The Father is not the Son, nor the Spirit;
The Son is not the Father, nor the Spirit;
The Spirit is not the Father, nor the Son.

The Father is wholly the Son, and wholly the Spirit;
The Son is wholly the Father, and wholly the Spirit;
The Spirit is wholly the Father, and wholly the Son.

Three in Person.
One in essence, substance, being and nature.

+++

There are many words, and throughout the ages there have been some wonderful liturgical and prayerful litanies composed, a Google search will provide if you ask for 'litanies of the Divine Name'.

The name above all names is Abba — Father.

In the Greek language of the early church, 'theos' was the word used of the Father, and 'kurios' used of the Son. It is the latter, Kurios, that was held synonymous with Adonai.

Thomas

 

[JosephM]

Hello Neemai —

"What is man, that thou art mindful of him?"
Hebrews 2:6

As God is Absolute, Infinite, Transcendant ... God is beyond all definition, all distinction, all determination ... in short, God cannot be known, conceived or comprehended. What is man, as the sacred scribe asks, that he should, like Icarus, dare to assume he even has the right to ask such a question?

(snip)

Thomas

Yes, beyond all definition, all distinctions, all determination ... yet it seems to me not beyond knowing.

And might I add personally in my view that God is beyond all names you may apply to him.

In Peace and Love,
JM

 

[InLove]

Thank you, Thomas.

 

[lunamoth]

Lunamoth I used to go to a Saturday Greek school as a child and we had a Greek Orthodox priest that would visit and give some classes short lectures on the Christian faith and we would throw some questions at him. One question I threw at him was about the after life, it isn't till now at 23 I realise his view is heretical. He basically disagreed with hell and described it as being distant from God or being blind in the next life. Kind of similar to the Baha'i teachings which I'm sure he wasn’t aware of. That priest as I remember him was an exceptional person.

How far can we push the herecy in Christianity and get away with it? Am I going to hell if I believe in evoloution or don't believe in hell in the same sense as the scriptures?

I don't think that priest's view was heretical, especially because he is an Orthodox priest. His view might be considered heresy by Roman Catholics (but I'm not sure) and would be rejected by some Protestants, but what you've related above is much like what I have heard from other Orthodox Christians. Hell is not so much a place as it is a state of separation from God, and it's much more likely that Baha'u'llah got this from the Orthodox, rather than the other way around. It is an ancient view.

It is not heresy to accept the theory of evolution as our best explanation of how humans came to be, nor is it heresy to be scientific in one's thinking and approach to the material universe. It is not heresy to view Genesis and other parts of the Bible as metaphors for Creation: they tell us about God and our relationship with God, rather than being a textbook on the mechanics of how God created.

2 c

 

[lunamoth]

Hello Neemai —



"What is man, that thou art mindful of him?"
Hebrews 2:6

As God is Absolute, Infinite, Transcendant ... God is beyond all definition, all distinction, all determination ... in short, God cannot be known, conceived or comprehended. What is man, as the sacred scribe asks, that he should, like Icarus, dare to assume he even has the right to ask such a question?

God is beyond all knowing.
Unless God chooses to be known.

This idea then, of Divine Revelation is what we understand by the term 'Verbum' — The Word — which signifies precisely that self-disclosure of the Deity.

In Trinitartian terms:
The Father speaks the Word, that He is;
The Son receives the Word, that He is;
The Spirit is the Word.

The Father is not the Son, nor the Spirit;
The Son is not the Father, nor the Spirit;
The Spirit is not the Father, nor the Son.

The Father is wholly the Son, and wholly the Spirit;
The Son is wholly the Father, and wholly the Spirit;
The Spirit is wholly the Father, and wholly the Son.

Three in Person.
One in essence, substance, being and nature.

+++

There are many words, and throughout the ages there have been some wonderful liturgical and prayerful litanies composed, a Google search will provide if you ask for 'litanies of the Divine Name'.

The name above all names is Abba — Father.

In the Greek language of the early church, 'theos' was the word used of the Father, and 'kurios' used of the Son. It is the latter, Kurios, that was held synonymous with Adonai.

Thomas

Thank you Thomas, exellent post.

 

[BlaznFattyz]

BF,
If the "bible makes perfectly clear" why then is there over 1000 divisions and denominations in Christianity?

Has not God always walked around in bodily form so to speak? Otherwise, why would Jesus say.
Matthew 25:40
And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

God has forgiven my sins. Am I not then also holy and righteous in God's eyes and walking around with these same attributes? Or shall I be foolish and retain that which God has forgiven? Are they attributes for God alone or does he manifest them in his children?

1 John 3:2
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Is it robbery that I should also be considered a son of God. When he shall appear shall I not be like him?

The bible makes it perfectly clear that Jesus is the Word of God, The Lamb of God, the Saviour, who is the light of the world full of grace and truth, and in him there is everlasting life for those who call on his name. Those that do not believe these words as they are clearly expressed, but twist them or have preconceived ideas of what God should be and try to squeeze him into their own interpretation, or have too much invested in their ego, culture, or own wisdom might be confused and it is not clear to them. yet the spirit waits for them to humbly call on him so he may reveal the truth.

Having said that, there is indeed different denominations, but none of them which consider themselves part of mainstream Christianity deviate from the divinity of Christ. They may have different opinions of what their calling and talents are, or what they want to spend special attention on, but that does not subtract from the fact they they are all brothers and sisters born again in Christ. Those that deviate from the divinity of Christ who being the Word of God, who was with God, and as God humbly came down so we might be saved through his resurrection. He has the power to lay his life, take it up again, to forgive sins and to judge and to cast those that reject him into hell. All those that deviate from this are no longer considered part of Mainstream Christianity.

The holy spirit does work through those God chooses to work through. There are those that pay special attention on evangelizing, there are those that pay special attention to translating the bible into different languages, there are those that go around baptizing, there are those that simply raise a family in the ways of the Lord. That does not divide Christianity, rather it glorifies God by using what we have been given to spread the gospel.

As far as Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. This is a reflection of God's justice, not a statement making you equal with God. We are to love God with all our heart and soul, the next great commandment is like it, we are to love one another. If we cannot forgive others, how do you expect God to forgive you.

If you have asked God forgiveness in Jesus' name then you are indeed forgiven. That wipes your slate clean, yet because we are still human, we still sin and fall short of the glory of God. There is no one that is sinless, holy, righteous, other than Jesus himself who died for our sins, only he has the power over death, because he is life and wishes to give it to us if we believe in him.

We are called to be holy as God is holy, that is our goal. Yet we will fail, but there is Jesus to forgive us, there is the Spirit to guide us, to help us, and to comfort us, that although we will fall short, God's grace brings us over from death to life, from condemnation to salvation through the blood of Jesus Christ.

Because we are men, we are corruptible, we die, and our bodies turn back to dust from which they came. Only Jesus Christ, who was there forming Adam from the dust and breathed life into his nostrils is incorruptible and eternal and holy. He alone was there from the beginning, we will never be. We can never be God, that is what Lucifer thought. our hope is that if believe in Jesus Christ we will be glorified as Jesus was glorified and be found in the book of life, that Jesus alone has the power to open. God will change our corruptible bodies into incorruptible bodies, and being changed we will be able then to see God as he truly is.