Emotional Attachments

LittleLotus

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Ok. this is the thing... In buddhism one of the main goals is to increase compassion for other human beings... right? But at the same time to not become emotionally involved with others as this leads to eventual suffering when that person passes on. Is it possible to go through life with out becoming emotionally attached and where does romantic love fit into the buddhist way of life?
 
Quite a question. :eek: Personally, I think non-attachment is overrated, or maybe overblown is a more correct word for it. Among the pitfalls of non-attachment are aloofness and emotionless. It can become an excuse for some to isolate themselves from connections to others and healthy human relationships. I know it has for me, although I don't count myself as a Buddhist. So, it's not just a Buddhist problem; actually I think it would be more accurately described as a problem of asceticism.

I'm of the opinion that people shouldn't repress their desires. If a person feels inclined to have a romantic relationship but suppresses that desire in an effort to progress spiritually, I believe they would be misguided. In my opinion, they could possibly degrade themselves more by supressing the desire than by just embracing it and going with the feelings that are arising naturally.

As far as being compassionate without being emotionally involved, I think it is entirely possible, but difficult. ;) By a correct understanding of the human condition--that is, that we are all temporary manifestations of the divine (or consciousness, or the Self, or whatever) interacting with other temporary manifestations of the same divine essence--we can see others and our interactions with them as what they really are, which has been called Lila in Eastern philosophy--the divine play of God, or the Self sporting with the Self.

A concrete example: say you are serving food to someone who is hungry. Some emotions could arise and you could feel, compassionately enough, "Oh, this poor person, he's so hungry! How awful it must be not to have a place to live or food to eat!" and then you suffer some, thinking about his plight. Another way to react to that situation is to recognize the needs of the person and also recognize that you have the capacity to meet those needs (and some would say you have a duty). In a cosmic sense, one part of the supreme Self is hungry and another part feeds Him (or Her, or It), kind of like your hand bringing food to your mouth (or your stomach via mouth and other organs...) when you are hungry. From the Christian tradition, it's the idea that we are all the body of Christ, and you think of Christ on a Cosmic level. So, actually, you are not doing anything at all. It is the universe working through you. Usually, when I look at things from this perspective, it helps to dispell some of those silly ego attachments I have, for a little while at least. But I'm not sure if it will work the same for you. :)
 
LittleLotus said:
Ok. this is the thing... In buddhism one of the main goals is to increase compassion for other human beings... right? But at the same time to not become emotionally involved with others as this leads to eventual suffering when that person passes on. Is it possible to go through life with out becoming emotionally attached and where does romantic love fit into the buddhist way of life?

Namaste LittleLotus,

thanks for the post.

well... sort of... let us say it like this... the generation of compassion, or Bodhichitta, has primacy in the Mahayana and Vajrayana, however, this is not the case for the Hinyana school. so, overall this is a correct statement, however, it should be borne in mind that this isn't applicable to all schools of Buddhist praxis.

emotional involvement is gernerally a positive thing in ones life, this is true for Buddhists as well. the issue, from our view, isn't emotional involvement per se, it is the obsessive attachment that holding onto an experience as permenant can engender that can be an obstacle.

as for the question of romantic love, that is addressed in two different ways. in the Buddhist tradition, the two varying aspects of practice are generally summed up as monastics and laypeople and naturally the rules that govern the two are not the same. as such, what would be permissible for a layperson may not be for a monastic.

further, romantic love is found in various flavors, which can complicate the whole thing. love, as an emotional response, is treated the same by all schools of Buddhism... relationships that are founded upon love are treated a bit differently, depending if one is a monastic or laiety.

for the monastic, romantic love is generally considered an impedement to practice... though this is not strictly the case, there are certain well known exceptions to this, such as Ryokan, whom i quote in my signature.

for the laiety, the emphasis is on maintaining a relationship that is faithful and comitted.

in any event... even the gross emotions, such as love, anger and other things when viewed in the proper manner are opportunities for liberation.. so we cannot in a strict sense even say that the defiling emotions are "bad".

now... according to the Buddhist teachings... what we'd really want to do in this scenario is analyze why we are feeling the feelings that we have towards another and try to determine if our love is really based on the benefit and welfare of another or if it's a self-serving type of love that we feel. depending on what we discover in this process... we may realize that it was never "love" to begin with.
 
If one does not become attached, one has infinite capacity for loving and compassion. If you love someone so much that you smother them and don't let them leave the house or live out their lives because you are so worried about them, you are said to be clinging. This is just like trying to hold onto water by grabbing. It'll just slip right out.

If your hands are always open, water can enter and water can leave.
Once one realises one of the three basic qualities (lex?) of reality, namely impermanence, one is not upset when the water leaves.
Conditions are not final, change is inevitable. Water will return to your hand, how could it have got there in the first place?
When one door closes another door opens.

This is often overlooked especially in relationships.
We think breaking up is the end of the world. We think our partner is the only person we could ever love, and then, 2 days later, we're back into the swing of things.
Often men and women feel like they are owned by their partner. Constant pressure in the relationship. The institution of marriage affirms this and many men think they do own their partner.

Kay. Going off the subject a bit.
You get the point.
 
HI THERE .I am just a new member and hopefully we can shed some light
on this matter.I am kind of person of searching for the truth of one believe in
each religion.As i know teoritically if you have compassion ,you will
have attachment .so this means that whether you will emotionally attach or non emotion attached will still comes to attachement.I do know the great Buddha say to become enlighten , one must deattached his or herself from his surrounding happening.and this statement means that we should not
have any compassion at all on this time when enlightment is concern.but
along the way when we live, we will go through sweet and sour of our life.
on my own opinion actually we have to go through the meaning of love
and compassion and feel the experience of it and you dont have to worry
about getting emotionally attached as this is just a normal process of
human living cycle that one must go through.Hope you understand what
i written here probably this will clear your doubts.

wisdom preacher.
 
tom said:
HI THERE .I am just a new member and hopefully we can shed some light
on this matter.I am kind of person of searching for the truth of one believe in
each religion.As i know teoritically if you have compassion ,you will
have attachment .so this means that whether you will emotionally attach or non emotion attached will still comes to attachement.I do know the great Buddha say to become enlighten , one must deattached his or herself from his surrounding happening.and this statement means that we should not
have any compassion at all on this time when enlightment is concern.but
along the way when we live, we will go through sweet and sour of our life.
on my own opinion actually we have to go through the meaning of love
and compassion and feel the experience of it and you dont have to worry
about getting emotionally attached as this is just a normal process of
human living cycle that one must go through.Hope you understand what
i written here probably this will clear your doubts.

wisdom preacher.

Well there's your problem, mispelled nontheless 'As i know teoritically '. You cannot truly fathom Buddhist compassion and non-attachment theoretically. It is in practice that you see the fruits. It works. How can you argue that?
When the Buddha said one must become deattached, he didn't say hide in a box. These are ascetic practices which he tried and found failure in. You should really understand what Buddhist deattachment means. It is not removing the object of the attachment, but removing the attachment outright.

as this is just a normal process of human living cycle
I used to think that natural was always right. But suffering is also natural, so what we gonna do? It is possible to not get emotionally attached and it is possible to end suffering. I speak from limited experience, but that little bit has strengthened my faith in the Buddha's teaching stronger than any other religion (beside Taoism.)

Practice, practice practice.
 
samabudhi said:
Well there's your problem, mispelled nontheless 'As i know teoritically '. You cannot truly fathom Buddhist compassion and non-attachment theoretically. It is in practice that you see the fruits. It works. How can you argue that?
When the Buddha said one must become deattached, he didn't say hide in a box. These are ascetic practices which he tried and found failure in. You should really understand what Buddhist deattachment means. It is not removing the object of the attachment, but removing the attachment outright.


I used to think that natural was always right. But suffering is also natural, so what we gonna do? It is possible to not get emotionally attached and it is possible to end suffering. I speak from limited experience, but that little bit has strengthened my faith in the Buddha's teaching stronger than any other religion (beside Taoism.)

Practice, practice practice.

yes you are right that suffering is also natural in nature but the actual
cause of suffering is due to your own past karma and if you understand well
the meaning of karma then you shouldnt have any problem to be able to
handle your suffering state.well in my years of practicing i can conclude
this suffering is actually good in the sense of repaying back our past karma.
and this terms means that suffering is for the good cause in my belief.well
you can understand my term well if you really understand the actual meaning
of karma.
 
tom said:
yes you are right that suffering is also natural in nature but the actual
cause of suffering is due to your own past karma and if you understand well
the meaning of karma then you shouldnt have any problem to be able to
handle your suffering state.well in my years of practicing i can conclude
this suffering is actually good in the sense of repaying back our past karma.
and this terms means that suffering is for the good cause in my belief.well
you can understand my term well if you really understand the actual meaning
of karma.

Well this is where my views divide with the majority of Buddhists. I don't believe in karma or reincarnation.
Anyway, I believe that if there wasn't suffering, there wouldn't be enlightenment (the transcendence of suffering). How can you say that suffering is good? The whole idea of Buddhism is to end suffering and be happy. Yes suffering causes us to try hard, but then we're in a pretty cyclical argument then aren't we.

Never forget why we're actually here, not to pay back karma, or for 'the cause' but simply to be happy. Return to the root.
 
Namaste all,


samabudhi, actually... you just demonstrated your belief in karma... though you didn't frame it that way :)

karma is a word that has a very specific meaning in Sanskrit and it simply means "action". the use of the word in Buddhism is meant to denote the observed chain of causality that exists between the event and it's causes, and is typically found in relation to how good deeds produce good fruit and bad deeds produce bad fruit.

you can go in one of two ways with this.. the Classical interpetation, which presents karma as a sort of "moral engine" of the universe and it is this "engine" which drives or propells one towards a positive or negative rebirth or with a Modern interpetation which sees karma as primarily a psychological state. in either case, the means to resolve negative karma and so forth are the same. it's the understanding of the implications that are not the same.

this is the same tactic that one can employ with the understanding of rebirth as well. i say "rebirth" and not "reincarnation" due to what the two words connote. reincarnation tends to denote an unchanging mover that goes from one existence to the next... Buddhism specifically refutes this position. Buddhism upholds, by contrast, rebirth. however, it's not "you" that is reborn... which is even more clearly understood by a Buddhist :) in any event... it's an aspect of the consciousness that is actually what it reborn and it is this aspect of consciousness where the seeds of our actions are stored.

thus... when the seeds of karmic action are removed, rebirth no longer occurs.

i'll admit that my interpetation is along the lines of the Classical sense, though i certainly think that a modern interpetation is useful as well.

given that my view of karma/rebirth is the Classical, i too, like tom, find much joy in my suffering for it is a direct indicator that previous negative karmic seeds have come to fruition and will no longer trouble me. i find this to be tremendously liberating, given the nature of things that have gone on.

i suppose that i would have to say that the "point" of Buddhism isn't to end suffering and to be happy, the point is to see things as they really are, and even that is a bit much to say.... when that happens, however, the side effects are the ending of suffering and the co-arising of bliss.
 
samabudhi said:
Well this is where my views divide with the majority of Buddhists. I don't believe in karma or reincarnation.
Anyway, I believe that if there wasn't suffering, there wouldn't be enlightenment (the transcendence of suffering). How can you say that suffering is good? The whole idea of Buddhism is to end suffering and be happy. Yes suffering causes us to try hard, but then we're in a pretty cyclical argument then aren't we.

Never forget why we're actually here, not to pay back karma, or for 'the cause' but simply to be happy. Return to the root.

.
well actually religion is one the best thing to follow but the problem
is to understand the actual meaning of the context of each precept
or the holy statement.since you believe that suffering cause us to try hard
then i can say that suffering is to make us realise where went wrong and
from here we can correct it .once we repent our bad deeds and accumulate
the good deeds then when a times come we will have no bad deeds and this
in term we wont have any karmic effect so there will be no rebirth for us as
what Vaj is saying.its okay you dont beleive in karma or rebirth but as long as we understand and except the suffering wholeheartly ( not commit suicide or run away when we were unable to tackle or accept our suffering )
so when you can except this statement its show that you were following
the context of the karma but not the words karma .so keep on happy
as what you said as long as dont run away when problems comes .
THE TRUTH WILL BLESS YOU.

wisdom preacher
 
Vajradhara said:
the observed chain of causality that exists between the event and it's causes, and is typically found in relation to how good deeds produce good fruit and bad deeds produce bad fruit.

This is the Karma I believe in.

it's an aspect of the consciousness that is actually what it reborn and it is this aspect of consciousness where the seeds of our actions are stored.

This is the Karma I don't believe in.

The seeds of our actions. This is like the idea of a registry in Islam. I have not been remotely convinced of this concept all the time that I've studied and practised Buddhism. Perhaps you can explain why you believe this? (preferably with a minimum of writing. I've seen how people in the forum can be left staring vacuously at your posts. :D :D :D )

i suppose that i would have to say that the "point" of Buddhism isn't to end suffering and to be happy, the point is to see things as they really are, and even that is a bit much to say....

Of course the "point" is to end suffering and to be happy. To see things as they really are is the method. Vipassana means seeing things as they really are. This is the method not the goal. Why would seeing things as they are be the goal. A goal should be at the end of the chain. But seeing things as they are leads to being happy, so it can not be the goal/point.

when that happens, however, the side effects are the ending of suffering and the co-arising of bliss.
People don't want to see things as they are as an end result, they do it so they can be happy.

It's interesting how we can disagree on the most basic points of Buddhism. Just shows you how futile trying to get people to agree on dogma and more subjective issues can be.
 
Namaste samabudhi,


thank you for the response.

i hold the view of karma that i do based on the Lankavatara Sutra, the Shurangama Sutra, the Perfection of Wisdom in 25,000 Lines, the Diamond Sutra and others including the Dhammapada.

the Dhammapada being the only one of these listed that belong to both the Hinyana and Mahayana schools, the other sutras listed are all Mahayana sutras, as such, a practiconer of the Hinyana may not agree.

now... it seems like you are saying that you don't believe that an aspect of your consciousness is either the repository for the karmic seeds, or you don't believe in your consciousness as is described in the Buddhist Abidharma, i'm not sure which.

in any event.. the formation of consciousness and how it's constituted is also addressed in the Lankavatara Sutra. it is more conscisely found in the actual Abidharma itself, which is found in the Tripitaka of all three canons (Pali, Chinese and Tibetan). you may consider the Trimsika (Sanskrit) to be a more accessible text as it's a conflation of 30 shastras about the nature of consciousness and so forth.

we're approaching the problem from opposite sides of the river :)

the method that you are espousing would be quite commonly found in the Hinyana tenet system, however, the approach from the opposite shore is commonly found in the Mahayana tenet system.

as an adherent of the Vajrayana (which is essentially, Mahayana) i do not feel that i can properly represent the Hinyana veiw on this subject, though i shall endeavor to try.

Vipassana meditation is a method, a technique, that one employs to see things as they really are. however, this is not the sole meditational technique that one must employ on the Buddhist path. the other meditational technique that one must utilize (from our point of view) is Samatha meditation, which allows one to rest with calm abiding in the natural state of the mind when it is correctly perceiving such-ness. the "point" of meditation, if you will, is the experience of Samadi.

in any event... when we practice with a goal in mind, such as ceasing suffering and creating happiness, we are practicing with a mind that is still attached. not a mind that sees things as they are... a mind free of conceptions of practice and of merit or benefit.

in the Diamond Sutra, Subhuti is asking the Buddha questions on how one enters the path of the Bodhisattva. Venerable Subhuti was the foremost monk in terms of understanding emptiness:

Ch 3.
" The Buddha said to him "Subhuti, those who would now set forth on the bodhisattva path should thus give birth to this thought: 'However many beings there are in whatever realms of being might exist, whether they have form or no form, whether they have perception or no perception or neither perception nor no perception, in whatever conceivable realm of being one might conceive of beings, in the realm of complete nirvana I shall liberate them all. And though I thus liberate countless beings, not a single being is liberated.'"

"And why not? Subhuti, a bodhisattva who creates the perception of a being cannot be called a 'bodhisattva.' And why not? Subhuti, no one can be called a bodhisattva who creates the perception of a self or who creates the perception of a being, a life, or a soul."

i've started this last bit over several times now as i'm not sure where to go from here...

perhaps.. it would be of benefit to disucss the nature of consciousness as understood in Buddhism?

oh.. i think that it's very easy to agree on the basics of Buddhism.. as all three vehicles uphold the 4 Noble Truths and the Noble 8 Fold Path, the 5 Precepts and so forth. naturally, people vary in their capacity to understand these things, but these things are the same.

i think that, at least for me, it would be of some benefit were i to know which school of Buddhism that you practice. as that way i will have plenty of understanding of the philosophical positions that you hold, Sutras that your school upholds and so forth.
 
an aside

Namaste all,

an aside for just a moment...

you know, Samabudhi, your rejection of karma and rebirth are not at all uncommon in the western countries where Buddhism has moved. in point of fact, there are many teachers that are modifying their teachings to accomodate this aspect of their western students.

personally, i think that this approach is valid, however, the classical teachings should also be taught. i am concerned that too much of the classical teachings will be stripped down and presented as another "self-help" ideology.

in any event... i just wanted to say this so that you didn't feel as if you were all alone out there :) i believe that it's a guy named Stephen Bachlor that wrote a book called "Hard Core Zen" and he discounts the classical understanding as well. he actually ridicules those that have that understanding, but that's his thing i guess.
 
Moderation is the answer.

LittleLotus said:
Ok. this is the thing... In buddhism one of the main goals is to increase compassion for other human beings... right? But at the same time to not become emotionally involved with others as this leads to eventual suffering when that person passes on. Is it possible to go through life with out becoming emotionally attached and where does romantic love fit into the buddhist way of life?

Actually, I think Buddha's very important message for practical living is the Middle Path, which is roughly: to observe moderation. As the Romans tell us "Ne quid nimis" -- Nothing too much.

When is something too much? When an ordinary Buddhist is attached to something but troubled about his or her possibly inordinate attachment, then the thing to do is to search her soul. If that does not help, then ask from Buddhist spiritual advisers or teachers. Ask several, and I am sure you will find one who can give you a satsifactory answer and some very concrete guidelines.

Susma Rio Sep
 
hi all,
it seem that the truth will not be easily found and the right path will not
be easily follow and the best thing for all of us to agree to each other
is through the experience until we live till our last day.as i have seen a lot
of precept or wisdom being preached but we cannot expect each of
us to accept instantly the statement laid out but we can always take note
about it and be councious of what we have discuss or what we have known.so in my point of view i still prefer if we can change this forum to
a more or less like solving day to day problems or worried regarding
(family,work or health or even other matter which worries us the most)
as i beleive we need some kind of moral booster or some good guidance
to help us go through our daily life with more confidence and carried out our duty as a human being which will eventually lead us to enlightment.i hope our
administrator BRIAN will consider my request and not sensored my message.
 
Hi tom and welome to CR. :)

As for your message - indeed, what is there to censor? We ask only for civility here, nothing more. Wherefore have you transgressed that? :)
 
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