disproving infinity paradoxes; Hilbert’s Hotel?

[seattlegal]

Same here. Not always all or every or full. And there are limitations to that which is infinite just as there are different limitations to that which is finite. It must be somewhere in the middle where infinite meets finite.

Another one I have considered is eternity as with no beginning and no end- we think of as infinite in different ways. Eternity can also have a beginnning while having no end, a starting point and goes infinite in one direction or that is how it appears to me for now.

Undefined limit, then? Something {or no thing} that's not set?
Along the lines of:

The Tao that can be understood cannot be the primal, or cosmic, Tao, just as an idea that can be expressed in words cannot be the infinite idea.
And yet this ineffable Tao was the source of all spirit and matter, and being expressed was the mother of all created things.
Therefore not to desire the things of sense is to know the freedom of spirituality; and to desire is to learn the limitation of matter. These two things spirit and matter, so different in nature, have the same origin. This unity of origin is the mystery of mysteries, but it is the gateway to spirituality.
-source-​

 

[Bandit]

Undefined limit, then? Something {or no thing} that's not set?
Along the lines of:

The Tao that can be understood cannot be the primal, or cosmic, Tao, just as an idea that can be expressed in words cannot be the infinite idea.​

And yet this ineffable Tao was the source of all spirit and matter, and being expressed was the mother of all created things.​

Therefore not to desire the things of sense is to know the freedom of spirituality; and to desire is to learn the limitation of matter. These two things spirit and matter, so different in nature, have the same origin. This unity of origin is the mystery of mysteries, but it is the gateway to spirituality.​

-source-​

Exactly. The unity of origin is the gateway. It could have a starting point but does not always have to have one, at least in the sense that we can fathom. If it were to be expressed in words then I suppose the words and expressions should have an undefined limit. Not exactly the same as going around in the same circle but many different circles interlocking at times?

These two things spirit and matter, so different in nature, have the same origin.

This Tao is Hot and mighty! It works all the way through with the scriptures too
It is neat how it kind of flip flops around and back and forth yet has no defined limit. Part of it could be set, I think as in (unity of origin), but the whole of it going out into many directions or just one direction does not have to be set.

Do you think matter itself could also be seen as infinite as spirit is? For example; offspring- as the seed always falls back to the ground and reproduces itself and where do those cycles end or begin? The kernels/seed do not die though the parent will die, the parent that which was first lives on through the offspring with no end. I doubt anyone knows for sure...not yet. Maybe an atomic explosion can end and begin it? just kidding

 

[juantoo3]

BANDIT!!!

What a pleasant surprise to see you back around!

 

[Bandit]

Hey juantoo3

Likewise.

 

[john_jeffrey]

as an aside, the universe can't be infinite if it has a beginning. if the big bang is correct, and the universe is about 15.2 billion years old, then at best the diameter is 15.2 billion light-years at most since nothing can go faster than light. so if the universe's diameter is no more than 15.2 billion ly, 15.2 billion years old, it's hardly infinite. alternately, any finite unit (as a universe with approx age is,) can't be infinite. it'd be a contradiction.

 

[Tao_Equus]

Indeed..
It is part of the reason i consider the Big Bang a local event.

Tao

 

[Dondi]

as an aside, the universe can't be infinite if it has a beginning. if the big bang is correct, and the universe is about 15.2 billion years old, then at best the diameter is 15.2 billion light-years at most since nothing can go faster than light. so if the universe's diameter is no more than 15.2 billion ly, 15.2 billion years old, it's hardly infinite. alternately, any finite unit (as a universe with approx age is,) can't be infinite. it'd be a contradiction.

It is part of the reason i consider the Big Bang a local event.

What would you call 20 billion light years out at the present time? Or 50 billion years out? Could there be another universe out there? Perhaps on a path to converge with ours? What would happen if they did?

 

[Tao_Equus]

What would you call 20 billion light years out at the present time? Or 50 billion years out? Could there be another universe out there? Perhaps on a path to converge with ours? What would happen if they did?

I call local all that we are able to observe from Earth. In some respects I think science can be like religion. The scientists try to fit what they observe into a totality that works and makes sense. Just like a preacher will have some reason why a ridiculous line in some holy book has good purpose. There are stars out there that by spectrographic analysis reveal themselves to be much older than the Big Bang universe itself. How can this be?
I believe there was a Big Bang event in an already extant universe. The cause is unknown but the "brane theory" explanation of two parallel universes colliding is as good a guess as anyones. That answers your questions I think but....
There are many events that could happen, that may already have happened, that could wipe all life on Earth out. The luck that life evolved on Earth to this degree is quite phenomenal given what a hostile place the universe is. A peaceful sun parked safely on the outer edge of a spiral arm of a benign, sedate galaxy like ours, with a planet in that goldilocks zone with a moon just the right size and distance to drive tectonics. No nearby erratic or dangerous stars to threaten the peace. It may not be a unique combination but surely its very rare. But even then an average size meteorite wandering through the solar system and hitting us could wipe us all out, if made of anti-matter it could annihilate the planet altogether... give the sun a second asteroid belt. Or, as there is evidence for, the supermassive black hole at the core of the milky way could fart. Shoot of a jet of super high energy particles that would devastate us.

In the end creation and destruction are two sides of the same thing. I think the idea of all the mass/energy we see in the universe coming essentially from nothing just stupid. And Big Bang theory still holds to this. I do not believe for a second what we see and think we understand is yet even scratching the surface of the totality.

Tao

 

[Bruno's logic]

"If the doors of perception were cleansed, everything would be seen as it is, infinite." (William Blake)

"It must certainly be allowed, that nature has kept us at a great distance from all her secrets, and has afforded us only the knowledge of a few superficial qualities of objects; while she conceals from us those powers and principles on which the influence of those objects entirely depends." (Hume, 1737)

"A human being is part of the whole called by us universe, a part limited in time and space. We experience ourselves, our thoughts and feelings as something separate from the rest. A kind of optical delusion of consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from the prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty… The true value of a human being is determined primarily by the measure and the sense in which they have obtained liberation from the self. … We shall require a substantially new manner of thinking if humanity is to survive." -(Albert Einstein, 1954)

One must take a leap of faith to believe in infinity because the very nature of infinity is that of no boundaries, no beginning, no end. I believe that there can be only one infinte thing existing as the source of, everything else, that seemingly comes and goes in and out of existence.The Universe we exist in and are a part of is the biggest thing we can conceive of (I think of it as our womb) but I believe that there are an infinite quantity of universes in the infinite realm of existence.
That's what infinity is to me, an endless substance that permeates everything, everywhere, it always has and it always will. Infinity had no beginning.

We exist within this infinite substance and are of this infinite substance. I can't prove it but I believe in one infinity existing. That means that I am infinite too. I'm not sure why or how because my perception is not clear but I believe this anyway.
-G

 

[Bruce Michael]

disproving infinity paradoxes; Hilbert’s Hotel?

i thought i would have a crack at this ole chesnut, see what you think?
here’s the infinite-hotel puzzle (also known as "Hilbert’s Hotel"); In a hotel containing infinitely many rooms, all of which are full, how do you find room for infinitely many new guests? Simply move every guest to the room with twice the number - room 1 moves to room 2, room 2 to room 4, 3 to 6, and so on - and then all the odd-numbered rooms are free.
however, every room is ‘full’? what we are dealing with here is a problem of spaces and occupations, we can move a guest out of a given room to the next to create room. however if each room is full - literally - let us say that you have an infinite amount of rooms and each is filled with a wooden block the size of the room, then you cannot move any of the occupants to anew room! the puzzle then is simply set on unsound foundations, we are dealing with finite amount being moved around an infinite amount of locations.
secondly, we cannot have an infinite amount of rooms, this is the same as having an infinite amount of numbers - we cannot, we may keep counting all we like yet never get any closer to an infinite amount.
this and other arguments may be used to show how we cannot have an infinitely cyclic universe, and how we cannot this universe or any given limited energy entity as infinite in any way! this implies that we cannot have an infinite amount of universes too.
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god and infinity, or nirvana perhaps?

i am beginning to think that there is a parallel between the notion of where i am heading here [1] and a rather more ancient one [2]:
1. infinity is incomparative - for me this is one of life’s great truths.
2. "no that he is never in anything" a reference to god and his separateness from the created world.
many people especially in medieval times, have associated god and infinity, do you,and how do you connect them? and would you think this is appropriate? or would you separate god from infinity.

Hi Z,
Space is not infinite.
How many Angels can you fit on the head of a pin?
All of them!

Greetings,
Br.Bruce

 

[_Z_]

bruno’s logic, hail

I believe that there can be only one infinte thing existing as the source of, everything else, that seemingly comes and goes in and out of existence.

i agree. like the blake quote.

I believe that there are an infinite quantity of universes in the infinite realm of existence.

disagree. as i see there can only be one universe which is a universal moment. this cannot be replicated as all the core attributes are taken up in the moment.
secondly, think of it like this; add a zillion universes then more and more etc, where do you stop? you never get any closer to infinity. it is the same if we think of this universe then previous universes and future ones, it can never stretch to infinity and hence causes a paradox i.e. cannot be so.

bruce michael, hail

Space is not infinite.
How many Angels can you fit on the head of a pin?
All of them!

true, space is not infinite, its just the gap inbetween things.

i would presume that you could equally fit one angel on existence, in other words they are sizeless and dimensionless, they can be of any given size and hence are not finite nor infinite etc.
interesting point indeed!! this is one area we cannot touch with science, it is like eternity and its dwellers, both exist within each other - so to say. so we can have an entire level/realm of ‘existence’ that is not physical and does not comply to any descriptions yet can belong to any.
better not mention such things to atheists eh.