Challenge: Produce a 4 word description of the cosmos?

[Muslimwoman]

Theres a verse in the Koran which begins every chapter, it translates as, ''In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.''

Forgive me but Sura 9 Al-Tawba, does not begin with bismillah ir rakman ir raheem.


Tao

I accept what you are saying, that most would disbelieve if you could produce such a thing. However the Quran is not simply an artistic piece, using clever prose. The mathematical equations cannot be denied, so if you could produce a similar verse then even the die hards would be unable to reject it, as it would be verifiable (as long it is produced in arabic and the maths adds up. ).

Salaam

 

[goodyman]

Forgive me but Sura 9 Al-Tawba, does not begin with bismillah ir rakman ir raheem.

Greetings sister- Yes, thanks for the correction.

 

[Muslimwoman]

assalamaleykum Goodyman

The other problem I have with taking this challenge out of the arabic language is the problem with transliteration, which is only a representation and not universal. We are aware that arabic experts have spent centuries trying to take up this challenge and of course failing, so I doubt that anyone on this forum is going to find the key.

As Dauer mentioned the Bible does apparently contain a code, which I believe is in the form of cryptography rather than purely mathematical. It is my understanding that this was found in the original Hebrew, not a translation. Maybe Dauer can enlighten us on this?

Salaam

 

[goodyman]

assalamaleykum Goodyman

The other problem I have with taking this challenge out of the arabic language is the problem with transliteration, which is only a representation and not universal. We are aware that arabic experts have spent centuries trying to take up this challenge and of course failing, so I doubt that anyone on this forum is going to find the key.

As Dauer mentioned the Bible does apparently contain a code, which I believe is in the form of cryptography rather than purely mathematical. It is my understanding that this was found in the original Hebrew, not a translation. Maybe Dauer can enlighten us on this?

Salaam

Walikum asslam wa rakmatullah he wa baraka tu hu.

I agree with you, it is not fair to take it out of the original language.

I came across an article which claimed it produced a similar verse as the Al-Koran Al-Kareem, but when I analyzed it, it fell apart, even though they used half of the Bismillah from the Koran.

The Koran informs us that the Torah is from God. So, I would not deny the existence of a mathematical pattern in the Torah. It would be crazy to look for a mathematical pattern in a translation. Peace.

 

[17th Angel]

4 words for the Cosmos??

Dark, Spacious, Amazing & Illusory

I felt the 19 letter thing was a bit restrictive, sorry


... Neemai

lolz... And the four word "thing" too huh? 30 letters five words.... That's not even close.

 

[dauer]

goodyman:

Dauer- Which version of the bible would you be referring to?

The masoretic text. Bible code was in the news a lot a number of years ago, based on the gematria of the Hebrew letters. I don't know a lot about it as that type of thing doesn't really interest me.

Other than that gematria has often been used instead to show the relationship between different words. Someone I know is working on a project to show a logic of language based around the 231 gates of sefer yetzirah and gematria: http://www.qlipoth.com/Members/WordGroups.aspx

Unfortunately he's been having some problems getting the calc working, but after a hiatus he's back at it again.

In both of these cases though, what I see is a willingness to seek and attribute supernatural involvement to natural occurances. I think that sometimes we devalue both chance, human potential, and our own willingness to be convinced.

This article by Paigham Mustafa is about Rashad Khalifa's claims to be a Messenger of G!d and on that authority removing a few words from the Quran in his translation because they didn't fit the pattern perfectly:

http://www.islamawareness.net/Deviant/Submitters/rashad_khalifa_purifier_or_pretender.html

Rashad claims those verses were added at a later time by scribes. The article also examines some of his more megalomaniacal claims to authority and other ways he's acted on them in the way he translated the quran (like reading in allusions to himself as a messenger.)

The wikipedia article on Rashad Khalifa points out that a number of Muslim countries banned his books and branded him a heretic:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rashad_Khalifa

His followers believe that Islam, as well as Judaism and Christianity, are "severely corrupted and will simply die out."

Lastly, this article covers some of the issues mentioned previously as well as the inconsistency of the Rashad Khalifa's methodology, probability, similar number repetition in the bible, and examples of the results of arbitrarily looking for appearances of the number 19.

The numerology of Dr. Rashad Khalifa - scientist Skeptical Inquirer - Find Articles

 

[Tao_Equus]

Tao

I accept what you are saying, that most would disbelieve if you could produce such a thing. However the Quran is not simply an artistic piece, using clever prose. The mathematical equations cannot be denied, so if you could produce a similar verse then even the die hards would be unable to reject it, as it would be verifiable (as long it is produced in arabic and the maths adds up. ).

Salaam

Ty MW,

Well after coming back to this thread today I cannot tell you how disappointed I was to see that yet again its another Muslim coming in deceitfully to propagate myths. I have been through this argument before on other forums and I will try to very briefly give my take on the truth.

First of all the Q'uran was not compiled by Muhammad himself. In his time it was a collection of writings on various mediums held in many places. And he left no instruction as to the order of compilation on the finished article.

Secondly the number 19 already had mathematical significance to the mathematicians of that era and region. It is clear that they were responsible for fitting the Q'uran around the numerical values we see today. We can prove this as there are several fragments of texts that have been found that do not support this so called divine rule and clearly indicate that the Q'uran was chopped to bits and reassembled several times to achieve what we see today. The mathematicians of that time and region were the greatest in the world and if it were not for them much of the classical science we have today would have been lost. But it is not a divine numerical code, its a clever human one.

Finding such deceit exposed to my mind is only further proof that the Q'uran to be a deliberate effort of artifice masquerading as divinity. Perhaps this deceit is at the root of what causes people to continue to behave in such a way as the misleading OP'r on this thread ?

Tao

 

[goodyman]

goodyman:



The masoretic text. Bible code was in the news a lot a number of years ago, based on the gematria of the Hebrew letters. I don't know a lot about it as that type of thing doesn't really interest me.

Other than that gematria has often been used instead to show the relationship between different words. Someone I know is working on a project to show a logic of language based around the 231 gates of sefer yetzirah and gematria: Qlipoth.com | Word Groups

None of this can I verify. Can you help me verify it? My presentation is verifiable, I can answer any question you may have on it.

Unfortunately he's been having some problems getting the calc working, but after a hiatus he's back at it again.

In both of these cases though, what I see is a willingness to seek and attribute supernatural involvement to natural occurances. I think that sometimes we devalue both chance, human potential, and our own willingness to be convinced.

This article by Paigham Mustafa is about Rashad Khalifa's claims to be a Messenger of G!d and on that authority removing a few words from the Quran in his translation because they didn't fit the pattern perfectly:

Rashad Khalifa Purifier or Pretender?

Rashad claims those verses were added at a later time by scribes. The article also examines some of his more megalomaniacal claims to authority and other ways he's acted on them in the way he translated the quran (like reading in allusions to himself as a messenger.)

The wikipedia article on Rashad Khalifa points out that a number of Muslim countries banned his books and branded him a heretic:

Rashad Khalifa - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

His followers believe that Islam, as well as Judaism and Christianity, are "severely corrupted and will simply die out."

Lastly, this article covers some of the issues mentioned previously as well as the inconsistency of the Rashad Khalifa's methodology, probability, similar number repetition in the bible, and examples of the results of arbitrarily looking for appearances of the number 19.

The numerology of Dr. Rashad Khalifa - scientist Skeptical Inquirer - Find Articles

All my sources are followers of the Al-Koran Al-Kareem and the Sunnah of Muhammad. Rashid Khalifa rejects the Hadith and the Sunnah. If you would like to discuss about Rashid Khalifa you'll be better off in the submitters forum.

 

[goodyman]

Ty MW,

Well after coming back to this thread today I cannot tell you how disappointed I was to see that yet again its another Muslim coming in deceitfully to propagate myths. I have been through this argument before on other forums and I will try to very briefly give my take on the truth.

May be all your arguments are based by guessing.

First of all the Q'uran was not compiled by Muhammad himself. In his time it was a collection of writings on various mediums held in many places. And he left no instruction as to the order of compilation on the finished article.

This thread was started to see if someone could produce a verse similar to the Al-Koran Al-Kareem, it seem's like No one will be able to. Especially not by you.

Secondly the number 19 already had mathematical significance to the mathematicians of that era and region. It is clear that they were responsible for fitting the Q'uran around the numerical values we see today. We can prove this as there are several fragments of texts that have been found that do not support this so called divine rule and clearly indicate that the Q'uran was chopped to bits and reassembled several times to achieve what we see today. The mathematicians of that time and region were the greatest in the world and if it were not for them much of the classical science we have today would have been lost. But it is not a divine numerical code, its a clever human one.

Produce a verse like it? If a man 1400 years ago could produce it, surely a man living in the modern 21st century can produce it.

Finding such deceit exposed to my mind is only further proof that the Q'uran to be a deliberate effort of artifice masquerading as divinity. Perhaps this deceit is at the root of what causes people to continue to behave in such a way as the misleading OP'r on this thread ?

Tao

It's funny that the previous generations did not even know that there was a mathematical structure in the Koran. Its thanks to the computer that its been realized.

 

[dauer]

Tao,

The mathematicians of that time and region were the greatest in the world and if it were not for them much of the classical science we have today would have been lost. But it is not a divine numerical code, its a clever human one.

That makes sense to me. I was aware of the mathematical genius that has sprung from the arab world (not to mention philosophical. Judaism would probably be quite different today were it not for the arabic translations of greek philosophers and the application and adaptation of the ideas in those texts to Islam. Christianity would probably be different too, as Aquinas cited Rambam who seems to have been directly influenced by the methods of the mutakalim.)




goodyman,

I don't know what you mean by verify. You mean to show that it's there or to show that it's True? I don't study these types of things. I've no interest in convincing myself that I've found Truth in a finite patriarchal text.

All my sources are followers of the Al-Koran Al-Kareem and the Sunnah of Muhammad.

So in other words, in a critical examination of a Muslim claim, you only accept those who believe the claim to begin with as valid sources?

One of the important things that comes up in a critical analysis of Rashid Khalifa's work is that he found a sura that doesn't go along with the pattern. But because he believed so strongly in the significance of the number 19 he altered it.

If you would like to discuss about Rashid Khalifa you'll be better off in the submitters forum.

There is no submitter's forum here, and you did not post this under Islam. It's under Abrahamic religion. Even if it were posted under Islam, the submitters are a group with some relationship to Islam. There's no reason I can see why that topic of inquiry is either invalid or irrelevant. If this truly has no bearing on the matter please demonstrate so.

 

[dauer]

It's funny that the previous generations did not even know that there was a mathematical structure in the Koran. Its thanks to the computer that its been realized.

Sometimes information about texts is forgotten. And if it really is of Divine origin, why give a proof that's so difficult to decipher and seems to many so much like coincidence or intentional human activity? Why not create a very obvious proof that would be clear to everyone from the moment the text was received? I'd expect more from an omnipotent, omniscient Deity.

 

[goodyman]

Sometimes information about texts is forgotten. And if it really is of Divine origin, why give a proof that's so difficult to decipher and seems to many so much like coincidence or intentional human activity? Why not create a very obvious proof that would be clear to everyone from the moment the text was received? I'd expect more from an omnipotent, omniscient Deity.

Its beyond a coincidence. Im all most through verifying more evidences, will also be indisputable. Heres a few more for you to consider; The word ''day'' is mentioned in the Al-Koran 365 times. The word ''Month'' is mentioned in the Koran 12 times. All the evidences are pointing towards a perfect creator of the universe, one would expect a perfect well balanced book, from such a perfect being. Im not here to sell Islam, Im here to see if someone can produce something the Koran informs us you can't. So, the only way to prove the Koran wrong is to produce a similar verse?

 

[Tao_Equus]

Goodyman,

you started this thread with a deceit. I find those that are willing to deceive others are equally capable of deceiving themselves. Nobody will ever convince you of anything, regardless of the veracity of their argument, because your mind is already set. You sell yourself...and your "faith"..short.

Tao

 

[goodyman]

Goodyman,

I don't know what you mean by verify. You mean to show that it's there or to show that it's True? I don't study these types of things. I've no interest in convincing myself that I've found Truth in a finite patriarchal text.

Dauer.

Do me a favour? please click on your link you proveded for me and show me a verse which is mathematically calculated? I will analyze it!

So in other words, in a critical examination of a Muslim claim, you only accept those who believe the claim to begin with as valid sources?

One of the important things that comes up in a critical analysis of Rashid Khalifa's work is that he found a sura that doesn't go along with the pattern. But because he believed so strongly in the significance of the number 19 he altered it.

Rashid Khalifa rejected two verses from the Al-Koran based only on a weak Hadith.

There is no submitter's forum here, and you did not post this under Islam. It's under Abrahamic religion. Even if it were posted under Islam, the submitters are a group with some relationship to Islam. There's no reason I can see why that topic of inquiry is either invalid or irrelevant. If this truly has no bearing on the matter please demonstrate so.

You are wondering off topic. You may go back to my post and check it out carefully, if you have any problems with it, ask me, and I will claify. Its all verifiable? Produce a verse like it? It's a simple question give me a simple answer?

 

[goodyman]

Goodyman,

you started this thread with a deceit. I find those that are willing to deceive others are equally capable of deceiving themselves. Nobody will ever convince you of anything, regardless of the veracity of their argument, because your mind is already set. You sell yourself...and your "faith"..short.

"attack the post, not the poster".

 

[dauer]

goodyman,

Do me a favour? please click on your link you proveded for me and show me a verse which is mathematically calculated? I will analyze it!

The project he's working on isn't about the structure of one single verse. He's looking for structures within the entire language, which in Judaism is traditionally understood not only to be from G!d, but also to be something like the building blocks of creation. As I said before, the calculator he designed went bonkers and he's only just picked up the project again. I think he may be rewriting it in another computer language.

Rashid Khalifa rejected two verses from the Al-Koran based only on a weak Hadith.

According to what I've read, the links I provided for you his primary reason for rejecting the verses was because they don't fit the patterns of 19's.

You are wondering off topic. You may go back to my post and check it out carefully, if you have any problems with it, ask me, and I will claify. Its all verifiable? Produce a verse like it? It's a simple question gives me a simple answer?

I'm not off-topic at all. You're attempting to keep the critical analysis of these verses according to a very specific method and rejecting any criticism of that method and sources of information that aren't being peddled by those who already believe in its Truth. When you present something in such a manner, you should expect criticism from those who disagree with you. I'm really not surprised that I'm not the only one who saw ulterior motives from you and is still a little suspicious.

What you're doing would be like a person saying to you, "Prove to me that the bible is written by man instead of being of Divine origin. You can only use sources of people who believe it's Divine and you can only use their methodology. If you present biblical criticism then it's not valid and it's off-topic."

 

[farhan]

First of all the Q'uran was not compiled by Muhammad himself. In his time it was a collection of writings on various mediums held in many places. And he left no instruction as to the order of compilation on the finished article.

Although Quran wasent compiled in his life time, he did leave intruction regarding the placement of revelations. After each revelation he would tell the writers that "this verse is to be pput in that surah which discusses this topic". Quran was also recited 5 times a day in congregetion.

Secondly the number 19 already had mathematical significance to the mathematicians of that era and region. It is clear that they were responsible for fitting the Q'uran around the numerical values we see today. We can prove this as there are several fragments of texts that have been found that do not support this so called divine rule and clearly indicate that the Q'uran was chopped to bits and reassembled several times to achieve what we see today. The mathematicians of that time and region were the greatest in the world and if it were not for them much of the classical science we have today would have been lost. But it is not a divine numerical code, its a clever human one.

Well that was something new to me. Quran was compiled 1 year after Prophet Muhammad's death & diacritical marks were added 30 years later (for non-arabs). If you are talking about Arabs, they were mostly interested in poetry & warfare. If you mean Greeks, the Arab-Greek connection came long time after the compilation, & that too was mostly philosophical, not mathematical. Mathematics actually entered in Islamic territories from India. Arabic numerals are still called "Indinan numerals" in Arabic. And maths definitely is considered holy in India. But that too, was like 400 years later.

 

[dauer]

Tao,

I find those that are willing to deceive others are equally capable of deceiving themselves.

I find that's very true. I think it's something we all probably do at some times.

 

[Tao_Equus]

"attack the post, not the poster".

If you had been honest at the start I would have no need to say what I have said. I have attacked your assumptions. I am sorry that you cannot see that.

Tao

 

[Tao_Equus]

Tao,



I find that's very true. I think it's something we all probably do at some times.

Invariably I would think Trick is to be smart enough to realise it.
If we could still have signatures here mine might be " I reserve the right to be a hypocrite".

Tao