The Transfiguration

Gatekeeper

Gatekeeper

Shades of Reason
Messages
1,330
Reaction score
41
Points
48
Location
Here! Where else?
Luke 9:28-36

28. And it came to pass about an eight days after these sayings, he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray.
29. And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering.
30. And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:
31. Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.
32. But Peter and they that were with him were heavy with sleep: and when they were awake, they saw his glory, and the two men that stood with him.
33. And it came to pass, as they departed from him, Peter said unto Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias: not knowing what he said.
34. While he thus spake, there came a cloud, and overshadowed them: and they feared as they entered into the cloud.
35. And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.
36. And when the voice was past, Jesus was found alone. And they kept it close, and told no man in those days any of those things which they had seen


We've been studying this at our meetings, but I cannot wrap my mind around its meaning. Did Elias and Moses actually speak to Christ, or was it a vision placed in the minds of John, Peter, and James. I also question why these three did not write of this incident, when mathew, Mark, and Luke whom were not even present did.

James
 
Hi Gatekeeper —

Gatekeeper said:
Did Elias and Moses actually speak to Christ, or was it a vision placed in the minds of John, Peter, and James.
Click to expand...
Depends if you're a Christian ... if yes, then yes (the event actually happened) ... if not then it can be explained away by all manner of means... perhaps it was a vision... Perhaps they just concocted the whole thing...

(My favourite 'explanation' being that the three were sleepy, and saw Jesus talking to two men, shrouded in a morning mist, lit up by the rays of a rising sun ... and immediately assumed that the two must be Moses and Elias — I mean, who else would you assume to be speaking to a teacher on a sunny, misty morning, but two people who had been dead for a millenia - it's an easy and understandable mistake to make - I do it all the time!)

+++

Gatekeeper said:
I also question why these three did not write of this incident, when Mathew, Mark, and Luke whom were not even present did.
Click to expand...

Well, Mark wrote Peter's account of things ... Matthew's account presents Peter in not quite so self-depreciating a way as does Mark, James left no account we know of at all, and John, knowing Matthew, Mark and Luke had written of it, brought other events to light.

Here's an Orthodox reading of the event:
Contemplating the Christian Mysteries

In my studies we look not only at the Transfiguration, but its place in the Gospel, what came before, what comes after ...

Thomas
 
First, I'm not suggesting that it didn't happen. I am simply stating my ignorance of its meaning. If Elias and Moses did actually appear physically, what does it mean? Both apparently died, although there is no written account of Elias dying to my knowledge. What about Enoch, did he die as well, or did the whirlwind actually take him up to "Heaven". I think the two have some things in common.

When Peter suggested "pitching tents" for the three, (Christ, Moses, Elias)why was it considered an unreasonable idea if they were actually present.

What was the purpose for them speaking with Christ, as he already knew he was to be raised up, correct?

We've been on this for three weeks now, and have gotten nowhere. Were they visions placed by God, or did they appear physically and if the latter is true, where did they come from if they had been dead for a "Millenia"?


James
 
Thomas said:
. and immediately assumed that the two must be Moses and Elias — I mean, who else would you assume to be speaking to a teacher on a sunny, misty morning, but two people who had been dead for a millenia - it's an easy and understandable mistake to make - I do it all the time!)...In my studies we look not only at the Transfiguration, but its place in the Gospel, what came before, what comes after ...
Click to expand...
I'm not saying the sun ray theory is correct but it is understandable....they were Jews, they've been setting a place for Elijah for ever...they still do...awaiting a visit...and who else would they expect Jesus to meet up with but Moses? There is some sense there to me...
Gatekeeper said:
When Peter suggested "pitching tents" for the three, (Christ, Moses, Elias)why was it considered an unreasonable idea if they were actually present.

We've been on this for three weeks now, and have gotten nowhere. Were they visions placed by God, or did they appear physically and if the latter is true, where did they come from if they had been dead for a "Millenia"?
Click to expand...
For me when things are ununderstandable its time to dig deeper....I'm headed on the road and no access to dictionaries but look up the Jewish meanings of the names Jesus, Moses, Elias/Elijah, John, Peter, James (Love, Faith, and Wisdom? can't remember) and contemplate why these traits would see those traits...and what pitching a tent may mean...protection?

What I'm getting at is what literally happened? What is the context of the day? Societal, religiously? What figuratively happened? What metaphysically happened? Does anything like this happen in your life... ie does your faith love and wisdom need to see the traits of those three to grow?

Remember every place and person in the bible, every city, every well, had a meaning an interpretation behinds its name, it was tradition to explore that...

googled jewish name meanings


I'd also say the reason your group is studying and struggling is contained not in the literal understanding but the metaphysical understanding as it relates to your group....that is how it works for me....I always look as there is always a reason I stumble...
 
I knew you were serious, Leo. :) If this is the case where were they time travelling from? I assumed that they were both deceased, so timetravel seems a bit unreasonable to me, but I won't place limits on the power of God.

Wil, I'll have to do some research of the names, bro.
 
where did they time travel from? does Alpha and Omega sound familiar? heaven, outer space, the infinite?... angels (messengers) have been visiting man since the beginning of creation. throughout the old testament angels are "men" or vice versa. how is that? look, i am not trying to claim that i know the answer, it is just that i cannot find anything else to explain the transfiguration as well. the only thing i know about is where in the letter of Jude, Michael and the devil fight for Mose's body. it stumps me. another thing, too. remember that Moses is dead. he returned to the dust of the earth but yet no where can i find in the scriptures that he went to heaven. the only ones that went to heaven are Enoch, Elijah, and some dude that Paul knew. so i guess we are on the same page. but time travel makes so much sense to me because we have to believe in our hearts that if God can raise the dead, then He can also time travel. well, that's just my opinion. remember, Christ Himself says that nothing is impossible with God...
 
Last edited:
Apparently so, pattimax. Still, I question the why when all three that were present have their own writings, ya know? It just seems a little odd to me is all.
 
Gatekeeper said:
We've been studying this at our meetings, but I cannot wrap my mind around its meaning.
Click to expand...
this is the son and his kingdom talking and witnessing with him about the cup he was to drink of fully. it is the past, present, and future for a moment in time as the kingdom of god is out of our time.
 
Gatekeeper said:
Apparently so, pattimax. Still, I question the why when all three that were present have their own writings, ya know? It just seems a little odd to me is all.
Click to expand...

Oops, just noticed what I asked was answered prior.

As for why, possibly it needed to be in the gospels; but Peter just HAD to write about it, so John didn't. Only a guess.
 
Hi Gatekeeper —

I wasn't making fun of you ... sorry if I gave that impression.

Gatekeeper said:
First, I'm not suggesting that it didn't happen. I am simply stating my ignorance of its meaning. If Elias and Moses did actually appear physically, what does it mean?
Click to expand...

Elias signifies the prophets, Moses signifies the Law ... Mercy and Justice ... the Letter and the Spirit ... I think it can have many meanings, but all the meanings are secondary to the actuality of what happened ... Moses and Elias were there, and not in spirit only, nor even as a spirit, but as themselves, because everything exists in Him, and for Him, and through Him ... they appear each side of Christ because He called them there, to be seen by Peter, James and John ... it was for their benefit, so that they might believe. It was a visible (and material) sign for their benefit ... that's why He brought them with Him.

This stands in content with His other miracles, the feeding of the five thousand, the walking on the water ... He is doing what only God can do ... He is the fulfillment of Scripture ...

(The talk on St Maximus I gave the link for goes into some detail.)

Bruce Michael said:
Both apparently died, although there is no written account of Elias dying to my knowledge. What about Enoch, did he die as well, or did the whirlwind actually take him up to "Heaven". I think the two have some things in common.
Click to expand...
Yes they do.

Bruce Michael said:
When Peter suggested "pitching tents" for the three, (Christ, Moses, Elias)why was it considered an unreasonable idea if they were actually present.
Click to expand...
Because he was trying to organise Christ ... something happens, a fantastic event ... and immemdiately, Peter thinks "I know what to do!" His enthusiasm is understandable, but the truth is he does not know what to do, any more than he could have organised the presence of Elias and Moses ... better to have asked "what shall we do?" That's why Christ pushed him back with a serious rebuke ... if Christ had wanted tents, there would have been tents (as there was a tethered ass, when He wanted one). The lesson is how do we respond to the Presence of the Divine ... and how much do we assume what pleases us is what pleases God?

Bruce Michael said:
What was the purpose for them speaking with Christ, as he already knew he was to be raised up, correct?
Click to expand...
Yes, He did, but it's obvious from the Gospels that for the Apostles, no matter how much He signalled what was going to happen, when it happened, they were staggered.

His miracles were proof for the times when they doubted. They might question the words, but what they had seen, they had seen.

Bruce Michael said:
We've been on this for three weeks now, and have gotten nowhere. Were they visions placed by God, or did they appear physically and if the latter is true, where did they come from if they had been dead for a "Millenia"?
Click to expand...
Because Jesus is the Lord of Life. He raised the dead, He brought Moses and Elias 'back' from their rest, because in life and in death, they 'belong' to Him, as we do.

One way is not to look for an answer beyond the immediate (although don't stop). Why did He bring them back? Because He could. Then why did He? To show the Apostles that He could. Why? Because He wanted them to know that He was not a prophet, but the fulfillment of prophecy (easy for anyone to say ... words alone would not convince).

So He brought them into the world, there and then, by which He meant "Look, I am the Lord of this world, and the next ... everything in heaven and earth, all that is, all that has been, all that will be, and all that can be ... has been given to me by my Father, and is mine, to dispose of as I will ... and my will is my Father's will ... and so must yours be ..."

That last bit is the bit Peter missed.

Thomas
 
that was the point i was making, at that moment, even though jesus was still on earth, that moment in time was the kingdom of god and one would have been looking at the past, present, and future all at once because god is outside our time. i believe in matthew somewhere he says some of them standing there with jesus will get a glimpse of the kingdom of god. time travel is a way to put it, i think more like manifest from one heavenly dimension to a temporal dimension. because before jesus said he would take the cup on earth, in heaven he already knew the ending--he is alpha and omega.
 
BlaznFattyz said:
that was the point i was making, at that moment, even though jesus was still on earth, that moment in time was the kingdom of god and one would have been looking at the past, present, and future all at once because god is outside our time. i believe in matthew somewhere he says some of them standing there with jesus will get a glimpse of the kingdom of god. time travel is a way to put it, i think more like manifest from one heavenly dimension to a temporal dimension. because before jesus said he would take the cup on earth, in heaven he already knew the ending--he is alpha and omega.
Click to expand...

agreed.
 
I take in consideration other things in the bible that relate to the figures of the Transfiguration. Elijah, as one who was carried away in a "chariot of fire" up to heaven, is also one who is prophesized as returning in Malachi 4:5-6 (And incidently, Moses is mention in the previous verse 4). Many thought John the Baptist, was Elijah, but Jesus said that John could have been Elijah, if John's message was accepted. The implication is that John preached repentence in preparation of the coming of Christ, similiar to the message of the second coming of Elijah.

But evidently, John was not Elijah to come. However, in the book of Revelation chapter 11, we have a figure who will be one of two witnesses who will proclaim the gospel before the return of Christ, who will have the power to shut up the rains of heaven during their ministry, much like Elijah in the days of King Ahab in II Kings. The other witness will have the power to turn the waters into blood and smite various plagues on the earth, much like Moses did with the Egyptians. If you recall at the end of Deuteromony, that God buried Moses and no one knows where He buried him. And in Jude 9 we find a strange verse concerning the body of Moses being contended between Michael and the devil. Why would Satan be so interested in the body of Moses? Unless, Satan is somehow threatened by it. Or maybe God isn't through with it yet.

So when we turn back to the Transfiguration, I've stuck wondering if there is any coorelation between what find in the above passages and the incident involving Jesus on the mountaintop. Could it be a prelude to things to come?
 
Thomas said:
Elias signifies the prophets, Moses signifies the Law ... Mercy and Justice ... the Letter and the Spirit ...
Click to expand...
So often G!d and Jesus represent Love.... Interesting contemplation in John - Love, Peter - Faith, James - Judgement...physical/material traits meeting/confronting their spiritual counterparts...

What more has your group come up with??
 
Dondi said:
I take in consideration other things in the bible that relate to the figures of the Transfiguration. Elijah, as one who was carried away in a "chariot of fire" up to heaven, is also one who is prophesized as returning in Malachi 4:5-6 (And incidently, Moses is mention in the previous verse 4). Many thought John the Baptist, was Elijah, but Jesus said that John could have been Elijah, if John's message was accepted. The implication is that John preached repentence in preparation of the coming of Christ, similiar to the message of the second coming of Elijah.

But evidently, John was not Elijah to come.
(snip)
Click to expand...
Hi Dondi,

That is not at all what I read in the KJV of the Bible. It seems Jesus said John was Elias (Elijah) which was to come.


Matthew 17:10-13
And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come? [11] And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things. [12] But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them. [13] Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

And again...

Mark 9:11-13
And they asked him, saying, Why say the scribes that Elias must first come? [12] And he answered and told them, Elias verily cometh first, and restoreth all things; and how it is written of the Son of man, that he must suffer many things, and be set at nought. [13] But I say unto you, That Elias is indeed come, and they have done unto him whatsoever they listed, as it is written of him.

And again
Matthew 11:13-15
For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. [14] And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come. [15] He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Love and Peace,
JM
 
JM,

Regardless of whether you are in the group that espouses reincarnation, my basic premise stands. It was obvious that John's message wasn't recieved, therefore at that particular time Elias did not restore all things. The Malachi verses suggest a repentance for the nation of Israel, "before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord." The first coming of Jesus wasn't the "great and dreadful day of the Lord". Jesus came first to save, not to destroy. But you will notice in Malachi 4:6 that the promise of Elijah's coming was conditional. That Elijah will "turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse." You will find that the two olive branches, two candlesticks, in a reference to Zechariah 4:12-14, were likewise rejected in Rev. 11. These two witnesses are for the benefit of Israel, as they prophesy in the future Temple in Jerusalem. And after they are killed, resurrected, and taken up to heaven, God will strike with an earthquake and while many are killed, many will give glory to God. The "great and dreadful day of the Lord" is yet to come. In those days, God will smite the earth with a curse, before finally restoring all things.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top