The Transfiguration

Hi Dondi,
Actually I was not trying to espouse reincarnation. Only pointing out that writings plainly say that Elias had come already as John the Baptist. Further more he did restore all things. If you look up the Greek iwhere Jesus says Elias shall restore all things, the word 'pas' for all actually can mean 'whosoever'. And I think you will find God right now in his temple reconstituting (restoring) whosoever will come. As far as the two olive trees go, I think you will find they are the two witnesses, The nation of Israel who have accepted Christ (the natural olive tree) and the gentiles who have accepted Christ (the wild olive tree or branch that has been grafted in) They are also represented as two candlesticks because they are two churches (lights to the world) not denominations. But then again, if one wants to look or wait for a new temple in old jerusalem thats okay with me. Howbeit, the Lord God dwells in temples not made with mens hands. Just a view to consider. no more... no less.

Love in Christ,
JM
 
JosephM said:
Hi Dondi,
Actually I was not trying to espouse reincarnation. Only pointing out that writings plainly say that Elias had come already as John the Baptist. Further more he did restore all things. If you look up the Greek iwhere Jesus says Elias shall restore all things, the word 'pas' for all actually can mean 'whosoever'. And I think you will find God right now in his temple reconstituting (restoring) whosoever will come. As far as the two olive trees go, I think you will find they are the two witnesses, The nation of Israel who have accepted Christ (the natural olive tree) and the gentiles who have accepted Christ (the wild olive tree or branch that has been grafted in) They are also represented as two candlesticks because they are two churches (lights to the world) not denominations. But then again, if one wants to look or wait for a new temple in old jerusalem thats okay with me. Howbeit, the Lord God dwells in temples not made with mens hands. Just a view to consider. no more... no less.

Love in Christ,
JM
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Thank you, JM. I respect you viewpoint, concerning the two olive branches being nation Israel and the converted Gentiles. It is an aspect I hadn't thought about and I'll consider looking into the matter.

You will understand that I, for one, believe in the restoration of Israel that will come about in a series of world events as laid out in apocalyptical literature. So much that I take in reading about future events as laid out in such passages as Rev. 11, I take rather literally. (Though I'm also aware that there is a lot of imagery in Revelation as well that takes extensive study and prayer to interpret). I mean how do you explain the two bodies, laying out in the streets of Jerusalem if you interpret the two candlesticks as Israel and the Gentiles. I see it make sense only in a literalist view.

Furthermore, while the passage in Romans 11 state that Israel is the natural olive branch and the Gentiles are the wild branch, it speaks of this restoration of Israel in verse 25, after the fulness of the Gentiles comes in. This has not happened yet, according to verse 31, "Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy." God plans to restore Israel and Christ will establish his kingdom in Jerusalem. Why else is the land of Israel still so important to God if He still has use for it?

But I do agree that there is no Greek or Jew, that all are one in Christ, according to Ephesians 2:11-16. But since the majority of the Jews reject the notion of Christ being the Savior, I believe that God will demonstate this in another fashion, albeit real world events, as I've already laid out. The Messiah is still to come for them.
 
Dondi said:
Thank you, JM. I respect you viewpoint, concerning the two olive branches being nation Israel and the converted Gentiles. It is an aspect I hadn't thought about and I'll consider looking into the matter.

You will understand that I, for one, believe in the restoration of Israel that will come about in a series of world events as laid out in apocalyptical literature. So much that I take in reading about future events as laid out in such passages as Rev. 11, I take rather literally. (Though I'm also aware that there is a lot of imagery in Revelation as well that takes extensive study and prayer to interpret). I mean how do you explain the two bodies, laying out in the streets of Jerusalem if you interpret the two candlesticks as Israel and the Gentiles. I see it make sense only in a literalist view.

Furthermore, while the passage in Romans 11 state that Israel is the natural olive branch and the Gentiles are the wild branch, it speaks of this restoration of Israel in verse 25, after the fulness of the Gentiles comes in. This has not happened yet, according to verse 31, "Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy." God plans to restore Israel and Christ will establish his kingdom in Jerusalem. Why else is the land of Israel still so important to God if He still has use for it?

But I do agree that there is no Greek or Jew, that all are one in Christ, according to Ephesians 2:11-16. But since the majority of the Jews reject the notion of Christ being the Savior, I believe that God will demonstate this in another fashion, albeit real world events, as I've already laid out. The Messiah is still to come for them.
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Greetings Dondi,
Thank you. What makes it rather difficult to understand in my view is that what is taught in theology college (4 years here) would agree with your assessment. The problem is basic to understanding the mystery of God which many are taught is of this world. One looks for God and his wisdom either in the physical or spiritual domain or both. Jesus is recorded saying "my kingdom is not of this world" and also "God is a spirit" and "the kingdom of God comes not with outward show" and "my words they are spirit and they are truth", "ye are in the world but ye are not of the world" therefor I find if one does not lock into what the world church system teachings as things appear to be but rather seeks the understanding beyond words, one will come to a different conclusion than the masses.

When one reads Chapter 11, one must ask oneself. What is an angel, what is a reed? What is the temple? , what is being measured and why? What is an altar? Who is it that worships therein? (Its not the physical temple in Old Jerusalem) All the representations were merely shadows of things to come. God could care less about man's buildings. (so to speak) God has more than 2 witnesses. Being raised from the dead happens all the time. Its just not what one visualizes with the mind. Physical death is not what is important as we know we will all physically die. Rain is not rain, fire is not fire, candles are not candles, stars are not stars, sackcloth is not sackcloth, blood is not blood a cloud is not a cloud etc.. They all are representative of spiritual things that are revealed only by God's spirit. Nevertheless, in my view, what is important is that ones focus is not distracted by the myriad of world events and prophecy which many are trying to figure out to the neglecting of that which is most important and alone is able to transform one into the image of Christ in which is hid all knowledge and wisdom that men/women are seeking in the first place. And that one thing that is able to do this is no other than unconditional love. Just a view to consider. no more no less....

Love and Peace,
JM
 
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I absolutely agree that God dwells in a temple not made with hands, and that all the physical aspects of the temple as a shadow of the true temple in heaven. I'm not disputing that at all. The scripture makes it clear that the New Jerusalem will come down out of heaven in Rev 21, and this is that which you speak of, the spiritual temple were God abides, as restoration of Eden, where there is no more death, no more sorrow, and no more tears. It is coming, and in fact, those of us who are His have tasted this in our hearts, adnGod have forgiven us and cleansed us from sin.

However, you go back one chapter in Rev 19 and you will find that before the New Jerusalem comes down, Christ will reign 1000 years in the present, physical Jerusalem. Then immediately after this Satan is loosed to deceive the nations again. So this period of Christ's reign is not the final Jerusalem, for all things will not yet be restored, not so long a Satan has any power. Then Satan will be cast away. When that happens, God will create a new heavens and a new earth, one that will not see corruption or decay, you see. The whole entire environment of the earth will change, you see. It will be a spiritual re-creation of all things. Heaven will truly come down. The Edenic State will be restored.

BTW, I made some comments about the possible state of Eden in this thread that might lend an idea about my views.
 
Dondi said:
(snip)
However, you go back one chapter in Rev 19 and you will find that before the New Jerusalem comes down, Christ will reign 1000 years in the present, physical Jerusalem. Then immediately after this Satan is loosed to deceive the nations again. So this period of Christ's reign is not the final Jerusalem, for all things will not yet be restored, not so long a Satan has any power. Then Satan will be cast away. When that happens, God will create a new heavens and a new earth, one that will not see corruption or decay, you see. The whole entire environment of the earth will change, you see. It will be a spiritual re-creation of all things. Heaven will truly come down. The Edenic State will be restored.
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Actually the word translated for 1000 is chilioi,
a plural of uncertain affinity and was translated as one thousand but could be thousands, the period is uncertain. Secondly, people have been ruling and reining with Christ for some 2000 years already. That it is in physical Jerusalem is a conjecture. New Jerusalem is here already. Hebrews 12:22
But ye are come (present tense) unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

Perhaps, one is assuming that it is witnessed by all yet his "kingdom is not of this world" It is in this world but not of the world. Perhaps, people of God are looking so hard in the physical that they miss the spiritual. The flesh profiteth nothing. This physical will come and go but the spiritual is eternal as you know.

You are (present tense)a NEW creature in Christ Jesus. Old things have passed away (past tense) and ALL things have become New. This includes a New heaven and earth. So you see, Dondi, if what I am saying is true, of which I have no doubt, then just as the Pharasee missed the messiah so many of today are missing that which is before them because they cannot separate that which is spirit from that which is flesh. Nevertheless, I offer you no proof as it is self evident in the spirit and I would only hope that you are open enough to lay aside the building blocks that the church system has taught you and seek revelation directly from God allowing him to build the building, block by block from the foundation that he has already laid in you.

Just something to consider or toss out as you wish.
Love and Peace in Christ,
JM
 
Spiritually, I'm a new creature in Christ. All things in my spirit are new, my old life has been crucifed with Christ, and the life I live now I live by faith in the Son of God. But I'm still waiting for that no more sorrow, no more tears, no more death, no more pain thing to kick in. The former things have obviously not been passed away yet. Which is why I'm still holding to my view that my physical substance will change at a future date.
 
Dondi said:
Spiritually, I'm a new creature in Christ. All things in my spirit are new, my old life has been crucifed with Christ, and the life I live now I live by faith in the Son of God. But I'm still waiting for that no more sorrow, no more tears, no more death, no more pain thing to kick in. The former things have obviously not been passed away yet. Which is why I'm still holding to my view that my physical substance will change at a future date.
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Dondi,
It is my experience here that when one is in the spirit, there is no sorrow, tears, or death.... Just joy and peace beyond description. Perhaps there is a bit of confusion between living in the spirit and living in the flesh. One can go back and forth just as Peter did when one moment he heard directly from the Father and the next moment Jesus rebuked him for being in the flesh and not savoring the things of God. Just a view concerning your post to consider.
Love and Peace,
JM
 
Also Dondi,

Note in Chapter 21 the gates of the city shall not be shut at all by day and there is no night there. and in Chapter 22 Rev. 22:14-15
Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. (They are open gates but all cannot enter even though no physical gate prevents them) .[15] For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie (the world and physical life here). (There is still night and day outside the gates and people who cannot enter. Life goes on as usual) There is no night in the city because the glory of God lights it. (not a physical light) There is a physical world and a spiritual world and they both are present even now. The story continues.... and one can walk in and out of the gates of the city and the city is not limited by time and space and human sorrows or death. I can point it out but I can't take you in... only God can but if one does not believe it even possible to be so, he will create a veil through which he cannot see the gate to enter even now. Just some tidbits to discard or ponder.

Love and Peace,
JM
 
JosephM said:
Dondi,
It is my experience here that when one is in the spirit, there is no sorrow, tears, or death.... Just joy and peace beyond description. Perhaps there is a bit of confusion between living in the spirit and living in the flesh. One can go back and forth just as Peter did when one moment he heard directly from the Father and the next moment Jesus rebuked him for being in the flesh and not savoring the things of God. Just a view concerning your post to consider.
Love and Peace,
JM
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How does one implement this state of being in the spirit? Are you saying we can elevate to a point now where there is no more sorrow, no more tears, even no more death? Fact is, we are going to die, we are going to have sorrow in this life, we are going to feel pain. Oh, yes, there will be times when we are so in tune with the Spirit of God that we will experience joy, peace, but as long as we are here on this, it will not be perpetual. Besides, even if we ourselves are able to find perpetual bliss, there will be people around us, people that we love, that will still be suffering.

Or perhaps you've found some secret?
 
JosephM said:
Also Dondi,

Note in Chapter 21 the gates of the city shall not be shut at all by day and there is no night there. and in Chapter 22 Rev. 22:14-15
Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. (They are open gates but all cannot enter even though no physical gate prevents them) .[15] For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie (the world and physical life here). (There is still night and day outside the gates and people who cannot enter. Life goes on as usual) There is no night in the city because the glory of God lights it. (not a physical light) There is a physical world and a spiritual world and they both are present even now. The story continues.... and one can walk in and out of the gates of the city and the city is not limited by time and space and human sorrows or death. I can point it out but I can't take you in... only God can but if one does not believe it even possible to be so, he will create a veil through which he cannot see the gate to enter even now. Just some tidbits to discard or ponder.

Love and Peace,
JM
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Do you understand the Holiness of God? According to this verse, we must do the commandments of God. To what degree of obedience will allow us to enter? No one is perfect. Would 95% obedience be enough? Or how about 99%? Or 99.99% obedient? At what point will we have the right to enter?
 
Dondi said:
How does one implement this state of being in the spirit? Are you saying we can elevate to a point now where there is no more sorrow, no more tears, even no more death? Fact is, we are going to die, we are going to have sorrow in this life, we are going to feel pain. Oh, yes, there will be times when we are so in tune with the Spirit of God that we will experience joy, peace, but as long as we are here on this, it will not be perpetual. Besides, even if we ourselves are able to find perpetual bliss, there will be people around us, people that we love, that will still be suffering.

Or perhaps you've found some secret?
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Hello Dondi,

It seems that one doesn't implement it. It just happens when conditions are ripe by the will of God. Yes, I was saying that even now there is no more sorrow, no more tears and even death. Death is swallowed up in victory. Certainly the physical perishes as one lays down their body even as a rose blooms and then withers away but we are dead to the flesh already if you reckon it to be so and we are alive to the spirit and therefore only pass from life unto life.

In my view, it is perpetual. It only seems not so as one associates or identifies him/herself with the old creature instead of the new. Yes, of course there are people around us who are still sufferring. It is not far from the gate of the city to those without the city. What did you expect? Why else would one need to go out and in the gate if it were not for those still without?

Just a few points to consider...

Love and Peace,
JM

PS I wasn't aware it was a secret. It seems obvious and most natural to me and is right before our eyes unhidden except by our conditioned belief system and doubts.
 
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Dondi said:
Do you understand the Holiness of God? According to this verse, we must do the commandments of God. To what degree of obedience will allow us to enter? No one is perfect. Would 95% obedience be enough? Or how about 99%? Or 99.99% obedient? At what point will we have the right to enter?
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Yes Dondi I do,

Most believe as you do that we are not perfect and as a result, we, by our belief are not 'ripe' to enter. Did not Jesus say "Be ye therefor perfect even as your Father in heaven is perfect" ? Do you think he would command us something that we cannot do through Christ? We have been made perfect in Him.

Perhaps ones idea of perfect looking from the flesh is different than viewed by God's eyes? Job was a perfect man. Read James 1:4, 3:2 and Hebrews 12:23 and many more. The spirit is made perfect in Him and when you remain in the spirit you remain in his image of perfection. It is a free gift. To which you can identify unless you prefer to identify with the 'wretched man' that even Paul saw in himself (the old creature). That is why he said to reckon yourself dead to the flesh so that you may live unto the spirit. That is Christ in you. He is already perfected. Only sin/ignorance in the form of doubt will prevent us from entering.

Just some other thoughts concerning your question to ponder or reflect upon.

Love and Peace,
JM

PS When you were forgiven and had your first direct conscious experience with God you were not 95% or 99.9% but 100%. What happened after that I cannot say. Perhaps one must return as a child again to their first love?
 
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Dondi said:
How does one implement this state of being in the spirit?
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JosephM said:
It seems that one doesn't implement it. It just happens when conditions are ripe by the will of God.
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I think you do implement. I'm not in any way saying I am there 24/7 but I get these fleeting moments, minutes, days...non drug induced...

And while I can't instigate the moment, I feel it comes from time spent with the door closed, in connection. And while sometimes during the silence, bliss overwhelms...more often than not it comes unexpectedly, and often when I need it as the outside perceptions of sorrow, death, hate, jealousy etc. either are or about to invade my space....and then they whither without negative affect.

Or one of my favorite ones...about to go into what was purported to be (via emails and phone calls) a very nasty meeting, things not going the way wanted at all....and while walking across the black asphalt on a high heat, oppressive humidity day...a nonexistent breeze came over me, an unstoppable smile....and from that moment on nothing impenetrate that understanding that it is all good...I left the meeting with everything that was needed, all in perfect fashion and when folks who through this Christian to the lions asked what happened, how I did it, and how we came out unscathed I could not say as I did not know.

It has occurred numerous times...that seek ye first stuff is incredible.
 
wil said:
I think you do implement. I'm not in any way saying I am there 24/7 but I get these fleeting moments, minutes, days...non drug induced...

And while I can't instigate the moment, I feel it comes from time spent with the door closed, in connection. And while sometimes during the silence, bliss overwhelms...more often than not it comes unexpectedly, and often when I need it as the outside perceptions of sorrow, death, hate, jealousy etc. either are or about to invade my space....and then they whither without negative affect.

Or one of my favorite ones...about to go into what was purported to be (via emails and phone calls) a very nasty meeting, things not going the way wanted at all....and while walking across the black asphalt on a high heat, oppressive humidity day...a nonexistent breeze came over me, an unstoppable smile....and from that moment on nothing impenetrate that understanding that it is all good...I left the meeting with everything that was needed, all in perfect fashion and when folks who through this Christian to the lions asked what happened, how I did it, and how we came out unscathed I could not say as I did not know.

It has occurred numerous times...that seek ye first stuff is incredible.
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Very interesting Wil,

It seems to me that spending time with the doors closed may be an asset to the 'right conditions' as are surrendering belief systems, unconditional forgiveness of others, etc. yet from a flesh stand point of view, I can't say I have any control other than surrender and even that seems to be a gift.

I am open yet it seems to me that I can't really say in honesty that I Joseph implement anything. The spirit 'comes and goes' (figuratively only as of course there is not really anywhere for it to go) as it pleases and when it 'comes' there ceases to be two of us although an awareness that two of us are one still exists at some level. Location becomes irrelevent, and best described as non-local and at some 'depth' There is no fear of death because there is none and a state of bliss and what I can only describe as 'invincibility' persists.

Wil, If you can tell Joseph how to implement and remain as such, then please do. It must be possible and I will not disbelieve it to be so. :)

Love and Peace,
JM
 
JosephM said:
Wil, If you can tell Joseph how to implement and remain as such, then please do. It must be possible and I will not disbelieve it to be so. :)
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I tried to be clear maybe this is better...

I see a guy stand and throw darts and hit three double bulls eyes with three darts, that is three in the small circle. Someone said that was lucky, I think not.

If it were me tossing the darts it would be lucky, but he has thrown thousands of darts and many a bulls eye, were it not for his practice, dedication and skill he'd not have been 'lucky'.

Same as a golfer that gets a hole in one, you may call it lucky, but skill put him within six foot of the hole on a regular basis.

So time spent in prayer, contemplation, silence I believe increases your connection to all that is...sets the universe in motion for implementation... that is what I mean...you did the work to implement, it may not be at your beck and call, you may not be able to instigate the said bliss. So maybe it is a semantic difference?

It is within my realm of acceptability that we may achieve the ability achieve that state, and remain so, let it be in yours as well.
 
I have to kinda go along with wil on this. True that the Spirit like the wind bloweth as it listeth, but I think it is up to us to built the windmill.

Or to put it another way, what is mustardseed faith? It is a faith that starts out small and gradually grows, just as a mustard seed becomes a seedling, then a sapling, them a small tree, growing larger and larger every year (I don't know must about mustard trees in particular, but I'm just trying to draw an analogy, you understand). In other words, it is a process. I don't think we can move mountains until we learn to move molehills.
 
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