What do Christians Believe?

[JJM]

I'm afraid I am am not familiar with what it is you are referring to. My Bibles all contain the Song of Solomon.

I assumed that the Song of Solomon was in your Bible I just have heard that many Protestants don't feel that because of its content it has any place in the Bible. It's my opinion that if this feeling grows then many churches will begin printing Bibles without the Song of Solomon in it and eventually it will only be left in the Catholic Bible. To the best of my understanding this is what happened with the other books.

I can speak of myself specifically, and Protestants as a whole only generally. Generally, I think Christians as a whole do not care to look on the ugly stuff. They are content to see Jesus in swaddling clothes in a manger, or triumphant after the resurrection. By and large, most in my experience do not dwell on the pain and suffering He endured to accomplish His mission. "He suffered" is sufficient, rather than realizing in depth and detail what that meant. Then there are some that focus too intensely on the suffering, disregarding the overwhelming joy of His triumph in succeeding.
Jesus led his life as an example to be followed. Then He was offered as the "once for all" sacrifice, ending the requirement for the animal sacrifice for propitiation of sin. If the Bible account is true, and external evidence will not be forthcoming, the Temple veil was torn in two from top to bottom, exposing the inner santuary to the congregation when Jesus gave up the ghost. This (symbolically) opened the door to heaven directly to the faithful individual, instead of through the priesthood and religious system. Jesus then according to 1 Peter 3:19 and 4:6, descended to hell to release the righteous and preach the good news that death was overcome (alluded to in the Apostle's Creed), and resurrected on the third day to proclaim to His followers that He was successful in His mission. He walked with and talked among them, teaching them further truth, for 40 days, after which he ascended to take his place at the right hand of the Father and to send the Comforter to the faithful.
This is a very simple overview. And there are those that take exception to any number of points within, such as the claim that Jesus' body was stolen, or that he was "poisoned" with some drug that rendered him "as dead". Of course, there is no way in this existence to verify that he went into the "prison of death", overcame the bonds of death, or ascended. These are matters of faith.
The entire Christian faith hinges, in my opinion, on acceptance of the sacrifice of Jesus (the purpose of the movie, although I have not seen it yet), the overcoming of death and the promise of the resurrection. Without these things, the New Testament is merely another collection of morality myths, no better or worse than any of the others offered around the world.

SO, that is my take on the matter. What is yours?

Well I think you have the Gist of what I believe as for the way it happened, but I can't seem to remember the veil thing could you please explain this. However, I've never met anyone that put so much emphasis on his death that it completely overshadows his resurrection, but I could see how this could be a problem. I also agree with you in saying that because the average Christian would rather focus on Jesus’ birth and resurrection Rather than his Death. That I see as a problem. I don't think Christ’s death is focused on enough by the average Christians. I think that it is focused on a bit more in the Catholic Church (but not necessarily by its followers) which is what I think my friend was trying to get at. But the people themselves don't normally think about it. And that in my opinion causes people like Vajradhara who are not Christian (Note: in the Thoughts on the Passion thread) and I'm sure some Christians that aren't very learned about the faith to think that the Passion didn't matter very much. So while I think focusing to much on it that the resurrection is no longer important is a bad thing I think that doing the opposite can be just as bad. There needs to be some kind of balance.

 

[Susma Rio Sep]

All together now

Time for a respite, let's all recite the Apostles' Creed, shall we?

I believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth.
And in Jesus Christ His only begotten son, conceived by the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified,
died, and was buried. He descended into hell, the third day He rose again
from the dead. He ascended into heaven, sits at the right hand of God,
the Father almighty. From thence He shall come to judge the living and the
dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Holy Catholic Church, the communion
of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and
the life everlasting. Amen.

I don't know about other kinds of Christians, but I think Catholics and traditional Protestants all accept that Apostles' Creed dating I think to the fourth century.

Susma Rio Sep

 

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, JJM!

I assumed that the Song of Solomon was in your Bible I just have heard that many Protestants don't feel that because of its content it has any place in the Bible. It's my opinion that if this feeling grows then many churches will begin printing Bibles without the Song of Solomon in it and eventually it will only be left in the Catholic Bible. To the best of my understanding this is what happened with the other books.

I believe I now understand your concerns. Of course, there are a great many (too many in my humble opinion) among Protestants that completely overlook the entire Old Testament, claiming it has been done away with. Yet, that is the very Bible Jesus quoted from.

I can't seem to remember the veil thing could you please explain this.

Sure. Mark 15:38. It may be in other Gospels, but I did not find it in Luke right away. One must consider the significance of the veil and its purpose in the Temple, which will be covered somewhere among the furnishings of the Temple during Solomon's construction (sorry again for the lazy scholarship, I'm pressed for time).

However, I've never met anyone that put so much emphasis on his death that it completely overshadows his resurrection, but I could see how this could be a problem.

I was thinking of a specific order of monks who ritually lash themselves. There seems to be, in my observation, certain orders that focus on the death of Christ to the apparent exclusion of His triumphant resurrection.

I also agree with you in saying that because the average Christian would rather focus on Jesus’ birth and resurrection Rather than his Death. That I see as a problem. I don't think Christ’s death is focused on enough by the average Christians. I think that it is focused on a bit more in the Catholic Church (but not necessarily by its followers) which is what I think my friend was trying to get at. But the people themselves don't normally think about it. And that in my opinion causes people like Vajradhara who are not Christian (Note: in the Thoughts on the Passion thread) and I'm sure some Christians that aren't very learned about the faith to think that the Passion didn't matter very much. So while I think focusing to much on it that the resurrection is no longer important is a bad thing I think that doing the opposite can be just as bad. There needs to be some kind of balance.

I agree. The story must be viewed in its entirety and depth to be fully appreciated.

Thank you for being a gracious host in discussing this matter.

 

[Shih Yo Chi]

Susma Rio Sep, I'm not quite sure what to make of the discussions between Catholic's and Protestants. I'm beginning to think that my concerns with the practice of Christianity today aren't being addressed by either side. This is not to imply that the concerns aren't valid or important, they just aren't in the area of discussion that I'm currently interested in.

I also want to comment on your reaction to the prayer. I didn't see it as a rejection of the gifts of God, but as speaking to the motivation of spirituality. I appreciated it as I'm really searching for my own motivation in a spiritual life. It does seem that although it is a good thing when religion motivates people to live a better life, I don't think that fear the best motivation. This does not mean I don't fear God, it's just I want to feel that I'm persuing a spiritual life for some reason other than fear.

Should we fear God? I don't believe that God makes decisions and punishes people for their actions. Actions are usually their own punishment. Possibly you are refering to admittance into heaven. I don't disbelieve in heaven, but I've decided to try to live the best life I can and let the chips fall where they may in that regard. I've had a strong negative reaction to the way I've seen some idividuals, not in this forum, use hell to scare people into being good. I seem to be coming back to this point a lot so I'll stop now.

 

[juantoo3]

P.S.

I don't think Christ’s death is focused on enough by the average Christians. I think that it is focused on a bit more in the Catholic Church (but not necessarily by its followers) which is what I think my friend was trying to get at. But the people themselves don't normally think about it. And that in my opinion causes people like Vajradhara who are not Christian (Note: in the Thoughts on the Passion thread) and I'm sure some Christians that aren't very learned about the faith to think that the Passion didn't matter very much.

I went back to refresh my memory. Please don't be too hard on Vajradhara. While he may be pretty thick skinned, it seems a bit harsh to put such a focus on a misunderstanding. I know I often misunderstand things, I certainly would not attempt to claim knowledge of Buddhism. What I saw in his post seemed more to me a question, not so much a statement.

It is not an uncommon misunderstanding, even among Christians. I cry every time I read the account of the execution of Messiah, when I take in and absorb just what it is He took on, and why. He submitted to it, willingly, on behalf of humanity. He knew what He was getting into, and did it anyway. He took on the sins of the world, that is what the scourgings, and whips, and crown of thorns (a rather cruel joke of His executioners!), the cursing, the beating, the spitting, the humiliation, and finally to be crucified, itself a horrible and ignoble death. The pre-execution beating was so severe, it is no wonder He gave up the ghost before the other two (to answer another comment from the passion thread). We tend to lump it all together and glaze over it all with the term "suffering", but to look at what actually took place and why...of course, that strikes too close to home for too many, especially the self-righteous. It matters most to those of us who are sinners, who take the time to realize what it truly means. Those who are "saved" sometimes forget that they are still sinners, subject to sin, and subject to the faults and frailties of mankind. They are only saved by this very act of Messiah!

 

[JJM]

I was thinking of a specific order of monks who ritually lash themselves. There seems to be, in my observation, certain orders that focus on the death of Christ to the apparent exclusion of His triumphant resurrection.

Well yes that is a little extreme. However if they feel that it brings them to better understand the suffering of Christ that you spoke of then I say let them do it. However this doesn't mean they should forget his resurrection

P.S.
I went back to refresh my memory. Please don't be too hard on Vajradhara. While he may be pretty thick skinned, it seems a bit harsh to put such a focus on a misunderstanding. I know I often misunderstand things, I certainly would not attempt to claim knowledge of Buddhism. What I saw in his post seemed more to me a question, not so much a statement.

I was not trying to be hard on him. In fact I was just using it as an example of how the lack of focus on Christ’s death can cause those outside the faith to think of it as not important. If he is reading this I didn’t mean it in a harsh way.

Should we fear God? I don't believe that God makes decisions and punishes people for their actions. Actions are usually their own punishment. Possibly you are refering to admittance into heaven. I don't disbelieve in heaven, but I've decided to try to live the best life I can and let the chips fall where they may in that regard. I've had a strong negative reaction to the way I've seen some idividuals, not in this forum, use hell to scare people into being good. I seem to be coming back to this point a lot so I'll stop now.

May I ask which prayer you are speaking of first? Is it the apostle’s creed because where does it speak of fearing God?

Any way I don't think we should fear God so much as do things because we love God. Kind of like "Don’t ask what your God can do to you but what you can do for your God." I think that he does punish people somewhat. First let me explain that in my mind there are 3 types of punishment. 1. To teach the wrongdoer a lesson. 2. To protect the innocent. 3. for revenge. I believe 1 God does on earth. 2 God does when we die. 3 Is a sin and God never does. The one God Does on earth is only if that person will respond to the punishment kind of like a loving father always guiding and reprimanding when necessary. Except this father does really know what’s best. The one when we die in my mind is like this. God will allow everyone in heaven they just have to agree to not sin. If they refuse he sends them to hell to protect those in heaven who are living with out sin.




Finally to Susma didn't you forget the "And his kingdom shall last forever" right after "Judge the living and the dead.

 

[JJM]

Finally to Susma didn't you forget the "And his kingdom shall last forever" right after "Judge the living and the dead.

Yes I know this is a reply to myself. Actually I thought it was this"And his kingdom will have no end" I don't know why I typed "last forever" I was in kind of a hurry. Any way that’s the Nicene Creed. To late to edit so please disregard. Thanks

 

[Susma Rio Sep]

Look for a genial church.

Susma Rio Sep, I'm not quite sure what to make of the discussions between Catholic's and Protestants. I'm beginning to think that my concerns with the practice of Christianity today aren't being addressed by either side. This is not to imply that the concerns aren't valid or important, they just aren't in the area of discussion that I'm currently interested in.

I also want to comment on your reaction to the prayer. I didn't see it as a rejection of the gifts of God, but as speaking to the motivation of spirituality. I appreciated it as I'm really searching for my own motivation in a spiritual life. It does seem that although it is a good thing when religion motivates people to live a better life, I don't think that fear the best motivation. This does not mean I don't fear God, it's just I want to feel that I'm persuing a spiritual life for some reason other than fear.

Should we fear God? I don't believe that God makes decisions and punishes people for their actions. Actions are usually their own punishment. Possibly you are refering to admittance into heaven. I don't disbelieve in heaven, but I've decided to try to live the best life I can and let the chips fall where they may in that regard. I've had a strong negative reaction to the way I've seen some idividuals, not in this forum, use hell to scare people into being good. I seem to be coming back to this point a lot so I'll stop now.

Dear Brother Shih:

It is good for you to read about the controversies among Christian groups and individual Christians, and learn of the variegated wealth of doctrines and disciplines prevailing among them.

Look for a good church to attend service and to receive pastoral care and to contribute to the faith of fellow Christians. In time you will find comfort and a caring home in your Christian faith, notwithstanding all the perplexities and dissensions you witness everywhere. A lot of very good Christians have arrived at that kind of an enviable sense of assurance in their peculiar persuasion of Christianity.

If you accept the version of the Apostles' Creed reproduced below, which dates to a half century after the writing of the Gospels, I believe you have the essential minimums for the salvation promised in the Christian faith.


Apostles' Creed

I believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth. And in Jesus Christ His only son, our Lord, Who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried. He descended into hell, the third day He rose again from the dead. He ascended into heaven, sits at the right hand of God, the Father almighty. From thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic (universal) Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting. Amen.

Go with God, Brother Shih.

Susma Rio Sep

 

[Quahom1]

Dear Brother Shih:

It is good for you to read about the controversies among Christian groups and individual Christians, and learn of the variegated wealth of doctrines and disciplines prevailing among them.

Look for a good church to attend service and to receive pastoral care and to contribute to the faith of fellow Christians. In time you will find comfort and a caring home in your Christian faith, notwithstanding all the perplexities and dissensions you witness everywhere. A lot of very good Christians have arrived at that kind of an enviable sense of assurance in their peculiar persuasion of Christianity.

If you accept the version of the Apostles' Creed reproduced below, which dates to a half century after the writing of the Gospels, I believe you have the essential minimums for the salvation promised in the Christian faith.


Apostles' Creed

I believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth. And in Jesus Christ His only son, our Lord, Who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried. He descended into hell, the third day He rose again from the dead. He ascended into heaven, sits at the right hand of God, the Father almighty. From thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic (universal) Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting. Amen.

Go with God, Brother Shih.

Susma Rio Sep

...for thine is the Kingdom, the Power, and the Glory, for ever and ever...

 

[Marsh]

I will probably continue to call myself a Christian unless I discover something that better describes my beliefs.

Perhaps you're not really a Christian. Perhaps you are simply a follower of Christ. There's a difference, you know. And I think the second one is better than the first.

 

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Marsh, and welcome to CR!

Perhaps you're not really a Christian. Perhaps you are simply a follower of Christ. There's a difference, you know. And I think the second one is better than the first.

That is a very astute observation.

 

[Shih Yo Chi]

Follower of Christ

I had never thought of the difference between Christian and follower of Christ before. It seems to be a good way to differentiate someone who whishes to follow the Crhist teachings and someone who subscribes to the tenets of the Christian church. I need to think about this some more. Thanks for the idea!

 

[iBrian]

I do quite agree - I like the distinction - simple, yet profound.

 

[enton]

As I read through these forums I've discovered that there is a great diversity of Christian thought that I hadn't known existed. My experience with Christianity comes from traditional Protestant thought which does not reflect what I've come to believe. I'd still like to consider myself a Christian, but wonder how much traditional Christian dogma I can reject and still be called a Christian by other Christians. This leads me to consider where other Christians' would "Draw the line". I will probably continue to call myself a Christian unless I discover something that better describes my beliefs.

Must I believe in the Christ as the "only" son of God?

Must I believe that Christ died for my sins?

Must I believe in an afterlife?

I am searching for answers from open minded Christians and I'm sure there are many other points that could be included for discussion. I do believe that Christ's life and teachings can be the basis for a spiritually enlightened and fullfilling life.

You are not yet a christian, but a believer, having a faith in Christ. Christians are believers of God, but not all believers of God are christians.

Christ Jesus biblically speaking is the only begotten Son of God, or the begotten God. Christ was brought forth by God spiritually and was prepared a human body from God through the instrumentation of the chosen woman Mary. There are sons of God, in fact angels are also known as "sons" of God. But in the Bible, there are also "daughters" of God.

Christ Jesus died for everybody's sins. In fact:

II Corinthians 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Well, that verse is aptly intended for the christian corinthians. But it will be also to those who shall repent, and accept the holy baptism of Christ.

Regarding life beyond this life, it is true. Whether one believes it or not, still the fact remains the same: many men thousands of years ago slept, but there exists a being on earth which had been a witness of thousands of years that had passed and is still witnessing the days right now. If only that being talks!

I believe we all people are facing eternity, only many others already slept. But those that shall be the ones to witness the so-called "rapture", or the meeting of the christians (living and the resurrected) to Christ Jesus in the air will really be amazed.

 

[Quahom1]

Re: Follower of Christ

I had never thought of the difference between Christian and follower of Christ before. It seems to be a good way to differentiate someone who whishes to follow the Crhist teachings and someone who subscribes to the tenets of the Christian church. I need to think about this some more. Thanks for the idea!

Christ warned potential followers of this...now it is coming back to bight the new generation of Christians in the ASS! (yes I do remember how to write "bight", and write, and right...you get it).

v/r

Q