Coming full circle

Paladin

Paladin

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Well, it has been a long time coming, but it's finally here. After many years of study and practice in everything from philosophy to Christianity, to Buddhism and several other diciplines I think I have arrived at the spot where I have no clue whatsoever about anything.
Oh, I still know why an engine works, and how to check the torque specs on a ****** cover, and even how to cook dinner, but as far as reality, ultimate truth, or enlightenment is concerned I know absolutely nothing.
There are some advantages to becoming stupid in this way I think, for example I can't really know for sure if someone else's ideas are right or wrong as long as no one is harmed. Oh, and I really like trees, and watching clouds makes me feel happy, but that isn't really knowledge is it?
I listen to poetry with the same intensity that I used to reserve for dharma talks, and stories and movies about the human condition make me pause as if there might be something there I need to hear.
AA meetings are interesting, people there are dealing with life as it is and trying their damndest to cope.

So I guess my question is, has anyone here become an idiot as well, or is it just me? :):o:rolleyes:
 
Oh yeah:D. I like the term the contemporary Jungian writer, Thomas Moore, in his book, "The Soul's Religion," uses-"Holy Ignorance." Of that he writes "Acknowleging ignorance offers a measure of security. I can be at ease in my honesty, admiting I don't lnow much about the most important things...Owning my uncertainty, I can laugh in my ignorance and enjoy the comic nature of my puny efforts. An ironic trust in life comes into existence at that liminal point between knowing and not knowing. Take away the ignorance and there would be no room for the faith that keeps us going and the humor that keeps us sane. The central paradox, of course, is that it takes considerable knowledge and thoughtfulness to arrive at...educated ignorance. We have to school ourselves to the point where we are at ease with our unknowing. And the education never ends, for there is always that remnant of illusion, the sensation of knowing who we are and what we're talking about, that needs to be burned away." When we have moments of Holy Ignorance that's when we can really enjoy cloud gazing and the old Shaker song, "Tis the Gift to be Simple" really hits home.:D have a good one, earl
 
Mark,
Oh yes, also here. Coming full circle is an important milestone. Same self, same place, only difference is now you know you are ignorant and aren't deluded by false knowledge. Let's celebrate together. Now that you know nothing you are open to everything. Isn't it in a way liberating? Have a good one, Joe
 
P.S.

Only that which can be experienced directly can be known and then even that is subjective. He who in the flesh searches for absolute knowledge searches as one for sight with his eye or hearing with his ear, both of which has no capacity for such.
Love and Peace'
JM
 
Yeah Mark, I'm with you on this one. Maybe it's got something to do with age, I'm not sure. I know that when I was in my twenties I was burnin' up with ideology and all kinds of spirituality-ish stuff. Then, heading into my later thirties I was fighting getting older. Now, the way I look at it I just don't know jack, and I see that I have the choice to just go ahead and believe in any or all of the stuff I've encountered, but that would mean voluntarily sticking my head in a bucket, so I don't think I'm going to do that. I find a lot of meaning and satisfaction in the every day ordinary things in life. I like to cook, hang with my kids, play golf, work on my house... I don't need all that mysticality, overt ceremony, sacraments...and stuff. I get more out of listening to Jackson Brown than I ever did out of Jesus or church. I'm a big stupid softy, and I like it!

Chris
 
It seems now that there cannot possible anything holy or not holy. Things just sort of are. Once as Chris says, there was an urgency to seek and to know, and to understand. Now, I feel content with just being. I still wonder about the mysteries, but I don't have to figure it all out anymore, after all the universe probably knows what it is doing, regardless if anyone figures it out or not. Maybe all the religion and philosophy is our way of insulating ourselves from reality, though looking at it all I still love it all; the ritual, the tradition even the rigid thinking it produces serves a purpose for some.
Maybe our brother does think he's a chicken, but I suspect we still need the eggs. :)
 
Perhaps that is because 'being' in itself is complete and there is nothing that needs to be learned. 'Being' what one is requires no question nor answer. A duck is a duck by virtue of being and thus experiencing he has no need to know he is a duck nor what ducks do. :) :D
Regards,
JM
 
Well Paladin you’ve managed to crystallise something that’s been rolling around my head for a while now; I enjoy the “company” of CR but I’ve been wondering more and more what it “is” that I’m doing here , as I am not looking to achieve or gain anything, either specific knowledge or anything less tangible, whatever that might be (or be called). Maybe we should form a support group?:D

I would like to explicitly thank the previous posters (and others) for their contributions in providing signposts to my current state of flowering ignorance.

Strange perhaps in light of the thread’s topic but I would like to make reference to some books.

First of all, I’m reminded of a book, which I’ve not read, but the title seems to chime: “Novice to Master: An Ongoing Lesson in the Extent of My Own Stupidity” by Soko Morinaga.

I’m also reminded of a persistent point made by Seung Sahn: that is to maintain a “don’t know” mind. (One book of his is called “Wanting Enlightenment Is a Big Mistake.”) The same point is made in Shunryu Suzuki’s classic “Zen Mind, Beginner’s Mind.” In the mind of the beginner there is the most potential, and this is the mind we should maintain.

Finally, the bedrock of Soto Zen is the “Treasury of the True Dharma Eye” by Dogen and Brad Warner has recently written a book giving a modern “take” on it and the title of that is also a fine summary: “Sit Down and Shut Up.”

So what shall I read now? And what of the CR forum, now that you’ve all helped to get me to this point of relative clear and calm ignorance? Do I post again?

Time to peel the vegetables.

Thanks again.

Snoopy.
 
Paladin said:
So I guess my question is, has anyone here become an idiot as well, or is it just me? :):o:rolleyes:
Click to expand...

Absolutely yes. I have come out of my little "I know what it's all about" shell and am now a completly confused idiot. Actually to be honest I knew I was an idiot before I came to CR but posting here has simply confirmed it.

My faith in G-d has not lessened, if anything it is stronger but it is all the human stuff that surrounds faith that I find myself now questioning more and more.

So stick my name on the Idiot's List. If being an idiot means that we question, then I am proud to be an idiot.

Salaam

Snoopy, will you please stop threatening to leave CR, you know I am easily upset.
 
Hi, my fellow “idiots”. :)

Thanks for the thread, Paladin, and all the responses, too. I feel a lot less lonely now!

When I first joined C-R, we had those personal signature lines. Under mine, I entered this from Maimonides: “Teach thy tongue to say I do not know and thou shalt progress.” I didn’t even really know who Maimonides was at the time. Still don’t know a whole lot about him. However, I still like this quote. Of course, the same thing has been said by several other legendary thinkers, as well. I guess if we are idiots, then they were, also? :cool:

Not knowing some things I used to think I knew has not taken one bit of faith away. It has only enhanced it, along with helping me to be able to “hear” what people with various ideas are actually saying. It hasn’t caused me to throw out anything essential, but to consider so many more possibilities. It is good to realize that everything does not have turn into a conflict of some kind.

Someone tie Snoop to his chair until he stops that silly talk about leaving. Yes, you may have a life outside C-R, Snoopy, but we still need you here every once in a while, please??? :D

InPeace,
InLove
 
Snoopy said:
(snip)

So what shall I read now? And what of the CR forum, now that you’ve all helped to get me to this point of relative clear and calm ignorance? Do I post again?

Time to peel the vegetables.

Thanks again.

Snoopy.
Click to expand...

You know what they say snoop. "Before, chop wood carry water, after, chop wood carry water" :D

Seriously Snoopy, keep doing 'nothing'. :) Only difference now is you know that you are doing 'nothing' :D

Snoopy... "What is This?"

Love and Peace,
JM
 
I'm not sure why I hang around here either. I need to write- even if it's just gibberish. I like the social interaction, I've always been a people watcher. I don't have anything grand to offer, just a few sentences here and there. I guess I just like the conversations and goofing on stuff.

Chris
 
Paladin-you now sound like you're where you wanted to be if even if you weren't heading there when you started the journey-at ease with what is. "Nothing holy"-bodhidharma would say rock on dude. Snoop, I'm with Deb-hope you don't leave the "community." Chris made a very good point. I've only been a member of online forums for as long as I've had a PC-about 4 years. But I've learned in that time that no matter what the forum is ostensibly about folks like to congregate there as much for the social contact as the ideas that promote the dialogue. I value this place for those 2 reasons-enjoy stimulating discussion of ideas-just for the hell of it, doesn't need to be life-changing-and the company. I used to play tennis regularly with a couple of guys-did so for many years. A couple of years ago they gave up the game. The only time we got together was over a tennis match. Friendships bloomed over the game and I so valued my time with them. I now seldom run into them. Sure, I miss the game itself, but miss far more their companionship. I'd miss you guys if you stopped coming around. Whether you come by to discuss high brow thoughts, low brow thoughts, or manage to pull off Dogen's "no thoughts," stop by to shoot the breeze why don't you? earl
 
Reminds me of one of my favorite poems and a quote:
Poem – The centipede
by Mrs Edmund Craster (d. 1874)


A centipede was happy quite,
Until a toad in fun
Said ‘Pray which leg moves after which ?
This raised her doubts to such a pitch
She fell exhausted in a ditch,
Not knowing how to run.

While lying in this plight,
A ray of sunshine caught her sight;
She dwelt upon its beauties long,
Till breaking into happy song,
Unthinking she began to run,
And quite forgot the croakers fun. ​
____________________________________________________
Show me a sane man and I will cure him for you.
- Carl Gustav Jung
 
Hello all...Duh'oh

And I would add my favorite paraphrase of Lao Tzu's timeless wisdom..."doing is not-doing, and not-doing is doing "

And now, for my last trick...Snoopy, if you leave and deny us of your incomparably dry wry wit and wisdom, I might be driven to actually "do" something.

flow....:p
 
flowperson said:
Hello all...Duh'oh

And I would add my favorite paraphrase of Lao Tzu's timeless wisdom..."doing is not-doing, and not-doing is doing "

And now, for my last trick...Snoopy, if you leave and deny us of your incomparably dry wry wit and wisdom, I might be driven to actually "do" something.

flow....:p
Click to expand...
Oh, big fish in flow's avatar. {Don't worry, flow, this shouldn't hurt too much...} Oh Snoopy.....
*whack* :D
 
flowperson said:
And now, for my last trick...Snoopy, if you leave and deny us of your incomparably dry wry wit and wisdom, I might be driven to actually "do" something.
Click to expand...

See Snoopy, you can't go or you would be entirely responsible for the above. :eek:
 
Hey Snoopy,
There is a man up in Boulder who has written several books on doing nothing. He has lectured about how at some point we reach the end of our spiritual journey and surrender to the fact there is nothing to do. One of his books had that as its title, and if you hang around a while I might even give you his name and some book titles to look up. Sound like blackmail? Well it is, but MW inspired me to use it. :)
 
See it is true, women are the root of all evil and lead men into sin :p:p:p:D
 
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