What if....

[17th Angel]

But I am so unfamiliar with that religion and it's cultural construct that even to begin to think about changing to Islam would be so foreign to me that I don't even know if I would be comfortable with it.

But -what if- it was the truth? Would it matter that it was foreign?

 

[Dondi]

But -what if- it was the truth? Would it matter that it was foreign?

All I'm saying is that at this particular moment, I do not feel compelled toward Islam, or any other faith, for I have a peace and contentment in what I already have. Even if I'm wrong about Christianity, I feel no condemnation because I believe I'm following a path that God is pleased with. My conscience doesn't condemn me, unless I've made some moral grievious error. I am guided (or at least try to live) by the principle Two Commandments: Love God and Love thy neighbor, which I believe transcends even the Christian religion in regards to living as God wants us to live. Surely this is most basic in the Abrahamic religions. But even the second commandment of Love thy neighbor must form the basis of non-Abrahamic religions, so you can't go wrong there, I should think.

 

[JosephM]

(snip)
On the other hand, what if I'm wrong and Islam is right, for example? I have no real way of knowing that. There is a book called the Qu'ran that claims that Allah is God and Mohammed is His Prophet. But I am so unfamiliar with that religion and it's cultural construct that even to begin to think about changing to Islam would be so foreign to me that I don't even know if I would be comfortable with it.

And that is the thing that I realize when it comes to Christianity. That even if I were to go into all the world and preach the gospel, I'm going to run into people from other faiths who feel the same way about Christianity. The best I can do is give testamony of what Christ has meant in my own life. If that doesn't appeal to them, then the only thing I could say is to seek God where they are. Quite frankly, I don't see how God could fault someone for just happening to be born under the wrong sign. But I do think there is an universal internal mechanism to lead one to God, despite one's beliefs, that God will hold us accountable to. It is within the realm of conscience between what is right and what is wrong that if one would objectively examine oneself will discover that still small voice of conviction toward the right path. Just IMHO.

Hi Dondi,
Just some more thoughts....
It seems to me that the word Allah is just the Muslim name for God. It doesn't signify a different God. Each of us has our own conditioned concept of God and though particulars or our current understanding may be different and some religions may apply a different name, the declarations remain in common between religions declaring One God. Most if not all recognize God as creator and source of our life and the world around us. So in effect, one might say we all worship the same God but we apply our own cultural colors and dogma to Him according to our claimed religion.

It seems to me that to create a 'them' and an 'us' in any religion is a color that leads to separation rather than unity. Obviously, there is only One creator of ALL and therefor separation is of man and not of God.

I agree with you that there is indeed one "universal internal mechanism" so to speak that draws all men to God in time regardless of their religion.

Love and Peace,
JM

 

[Dondi]

Hi Dondi,
Just some more thoughts....
It seems to me that the word Allah is just the Muslim name for God. It doesn't signify a different God. Each of us has our own conditioned concept of God and though particulars or our current understanding may be different and some religions may apply a different name, the declarations remain in common between religions declaring One God. Most if not all recognize God as creator and source of our life and the world around us. So in effect, one might say we all worship the same God but we apply our own cultural colors and dogma to Him according to our claimed religion.

It seems to me that to create a 'them' and an 'us' in any religion is a color that leads to separation rather than unity. Obviously, there is only One creator of ALL and therefor separation is of man and not of God.

I agree with you that there is indeed one "universal internal mechanism" so to speak that draws all men to God in time regardless of their religion.

Love and Peace,
JM

I am aware that Allah is the Muslim name for God. But for Islam, it seems highly important to distinguish that name in association with Mohammed as the definitive prophet and the idea of Allah as portrayed in the Qu'ran. Certainly, there are similarities in the description of the Qu'ran idea of God in comparision with the OT and NT idea of God, but there are also marked differences. And perhaps is it those kinds of differences as presented in the texts or the intepretation of the texts that tend to separate us. It would be nice to settle on the similarities and call it a day.

 

[JosephM]

I am aware that Allah is the Muslim name for God. But for Islam, it seems highly important to distinguish that name in association with Mohammed as the definitive prophet and the idea of Allah as portrayed in the Qu'ran. Certainly, there are similarities in the description of the Qu'ran idea of God in comparision with the OT and NT idea of God, but there are also marked differences. And perhaps is it those kinds of differences as presented in the texts or the intepretation of the texts that tend to separate us. It would be nice to settle on the similarities and call it a day.

Yes. I think we can choose to do that and let God settle the differences in our understanding in time.

Love in Christ,
JM

 

[Snoopy]

and as the great Homer said: What if we're worshipping the wrong God? Every time we go to church we're just making him madder and madder!

s.

 

[Dondi]

and as the great Homer said: What if we're worshipping the wrong God? Every time we go to church we're just making him madder and madder!

s.

Was that Homer of The Odyssey fame or Homer Simpson?

 

[Snoopy]

Was that Homer of The Odyssey fame or Homer Simpson?

The one that I watch.

s.

 

[flowperson]

DUH'OH !

flow....

 

[Muslimwoman]

What if the religion you follow is wrong?

Excellent question 17th and one I ask myself often. My answer is that if following that religion makes me a better person and there is nothing when I die, then I have at least lived a better life through my belief. If another religion is right and I have chosen the wrong path, I trust that G-d is aware of my intentions and will not punish me for my desire to find Him through Islam (at least I looked).

My heart/gut/inner voice tells me that faith in G-d is not a sedative, although I accept that a degree of 'control the masses' has crept into all religions.

Why isn't anything/one coming and resting my mind putting me at ease?

Can a test be a test if you are given the answers beforehand? The test is faith, to believe in something you do not have the answers for.

Salaam

 

[seattlegal]

Can a test be a test if you are given the answers beforehand?

This is known as teaching/schooling.

The test is faith, to believe in something you do not have the answers for.

Salaam

Faith, hope, and love, in the Christian tradition.

 

[Snoopy]

Hi 17th,

In a rare attack of seriousness I offer some of my thoughts. If you don’t like them, I have others. From your OP:

What if the religion you follow is wrong?

Maybe one shouldn’t be “following”?

What if your holy book is wrong and X holy book is right? What if none of these holy books/religions/ways are right?

Maybe one should step back from this either/or idea of right and wrong?

What if..... We have no reason, no purpose.... But, to die.

If the purpose is only to die then what is the purpose to be born?

I am getting this feeling like life... Life is like a condition.... You know?... And religion is the sedative.... Given in dose's to ease the pain and make you forget.... To put that false smile on your face as you sit alone in a chair slowly rocking back and forth, back and forth.... Everything is now ok and you feel bliss...... But, your missing the truth and reality.... Like freaking blinkers....

Then don’t take a sedative and stay awake.

I pondered one night pleading for god to proove that all my what if's are nothing to dwell on, then it made me think..... There is no answer, what if god isn't there... what if it is allah, or some space alien thingy bob.... Or something else that no one has figured.... Or nothing is there?

That’s up to each of us to dwell on. Hence, amongst other things, this forum!

Then looking at the statistics... Of likleyness to be born... That is unreal.... How freaking lucky am I? How lucky are you? We freaking made it...

Exactly. Dwell on that! But don’t expect an “answer” from anyone but yourself.

There has to be more than just death...

So you’ve answered your question above.

Why isn't anything/one coming and resting my mind putting me at ease?

Did you get some piece of paper at birth you mean advising you that this would happen at some point? That may sound facetious but I am wondering what it is that you might be expecting, and why you would expect it. If you want to “put your mind at ease” you have to find some solitude, look inwards and start your self enquiry there. Listen to yourself.

Then I go through the stage of...... Well How unlucky am I? Why did I have to be born? A human... With, adequate... Intelligence....

As you say, statistically…


But if your feeling of being unlucky persists, take solace in the fact that our existence in this current form, as a living entity is, of course, like all phenomena, a temporary arrangement. But while you’re here, you could enjoy the view.


s.

 

[17th Angel]

Hi 17th,

In a rare attack of seriousness I offer some of my thoughts. If you don’t like them, I have others. From your OP:

Maybe one shouldn’t be “following”?

The opposite of follow is to lead? So you're suggesting I start my own religion?

Maybe one should step back from this either/or idea of right and wrong?

So no right or wrong? What do you judge your actions by then?

If the purpose is only to die then what is the purpose to be born?

To die?

Then don’t take a sedative and stay awake.

Why, do I need to stay alert?

That’s up to each of us to dwell on. Hence, amongst other things, this forum!

Exactly. Dwell on that! But don’t expect an “answer” from anyone but yourself.

So you’ve answered your question above.

So I can ask, but the answer has to come from myself? I can't trust me lol... I freaking know me.... Why would I want to trust me?

Did you get some piece of paper at birth you mean advising you that this would happen at some point? That may sound facetious but I am wondering what it is that you might be expecting, and why you would expect it. If you want to “put your mind at ease” you have to find some solitude, look inwards and start your self enquiry there. Listen to yourself.

Well I don't expect anything as I myself believe in nothing... How sad eh? But, If I am wrong, I would expect the true ruler if it is a supreme being and not man.. To come and say hey hey hey son, look you're freaking doing this wrong... Do this.... It will be worth it in the end..

There you go with that listen to myself thing again! NUTS! NUTS I TELL'S YA.

But if your feeling of being unlucky persists, take solace in the fact that our existence in this current form, as a living entity is, of course, like all phenomena, a temporary arrangement. But while you’re here, you could enjoy the view.

I don't feel lucky nor unlucky... Just trying to put everyone's view on it... I just crawl along stoned out of my face 80% of the time..... And that does it for me... I then just sit talking of insane notions and such..... Believe me... I do enjoy the view.... Even though at times it can be distorted, blurred and not a true perception I enjoy it.

 

[Snoopy]

The opposite of follow is to lead? So you're suggesting I start my own religion?

There you go with that either/or thinking again. I wasn’t suggesting you start your own religion but of course you could. The only danger seems to be that you’d make a lot of money. Or none at all.

So no right or wrong? What do you judge your actions by then?

I was suggesting “holy books” be seen in a more different way than right or wrong. In a non-religious analogy: Blur, Oasis, The Killers and Scissor Sisters are not right or wrong. As to my own actions I evaluate them with my internal ethical code (as does everyone?), which I guess comes from, er, my entire life’s experience, which includes, but is not limited by, my interest in a “religion.”

To die?

This “either/or” thinking is really popular with you, isn’t it!!

Why, do I need to stay alert?

I thought you were saying about avoiding religion, because you saw it as a sedative. So I was just saying don’t take the sedative. Whether or not you want to stay alert is clearly a matter for you! (Personally I think it's crucial)

So I can ask, but the answer has to come from myself?

Ultimately, yes. It could not be otherwise.

I can't trust me lol... I freaking know me.... Why would I want to trust me?

I don’t know you, so I can’t say. Don’t people trust you in the offline world? Didn’t people trust you when you were in the Armed Forces? Have you reneged when people have trusted you on this forum?

Well I don't expect anything as I myself believe in nothing... How sad eh? But, If I am wrong, I would expect the true ruler if it is a supreme being and not man.. To come and say hey hey hey son, look you're freaking doing this wrong... Do this.... It will be worth it in the end..

There you go with that listen to myself thing again! NUTS! NUTS I TELL'S YA.

No-one knows this stuff for sure 17th, IMO. We’re all just farting around in the dark. And all any of us can do, is listen to ourselves, after perhaps doing the research, the reading, the talking, whatever…

I don't feel lucky nor unlucky... Just trying to put everyone's view on it... I just crawl along stoned out of my face 80% of the time..... And that does it for me... I then just sit talking of insane notions and such..... Believe me... I do enjoy the view.... Even though at times it can be distorted, blurred and not a true perception I enjoy it.

All Hail 17th Angel, the Life Oil of the CR engine!

s.

 

[17th Angel]

There you go with that either/or thinking again. I wasn’t suggesting you start your own religion but of course you could. The only danger seems to be that you’d make a lot of money. Or none at all.

Either/or thinking... I do that alot? I have no idea what you are talking of..... Please for me, could you define it in a simple way?

I was suggesting “holy books” be seen in a more different way than right or wrong. In a non-religious analogy: Blur, Oasis, The Killers and Scissor Sisters are not right or wrong. As to my own actions I evaluate them with my internal ethical code (as does everyone?), which I guess comes from, er, my entire life’s experience, which includes, but is not limited by, my interest in a “religion.”

Ok yeah, I see where you be coming from.

I thought you were saying about avoiding religion, because you saw it as a sedative. So I was just saying don’t take the sedative. Whether or not you want to stay alert is clearly a matter for you! (Personally I think it's crucial)

But as someone else stated everything is a sedative? Job, hobbies, whatever.... lol.... I dunno man...

Ultimately, yes. It could not be otherwise.

I don’t know you, so I can’t say. Don’t people trust you in the offline world? Didn’t people trust you when you were in the Armed Forces? Have you reneged when people have trusted you on this forum?

I only know like three people in the offline world lol...... I guess some trusted me, some even with their lives... But that was then and we are now. If I have an objective goal and so on... I can focus and yes I can be trusted to get it done... But my own personal judgement. Mumbling and muttering in my cranium? Oh no, we don't listen to that.... That ends in bad things.

No-one knows this stuff for sure 17th, IMO. We’re all just farting around in the dark. And all any of us can do, is listen to ourselves, after perhaps doing the research, the reading, the talking, whatever…

So with yew, unlike a few others I was talking to, are realy into this spiritual world thing. So why can't they help guide you? :\ save you all this farting aboot!

All Hail 17th Angel, the Life Oil of the CR engine!

*giggles*

 

[Snoopy]

Either/or thinking... I do that alot? I have no idea what you are talking of..... Please for me, could you define it in a simple way?

I would say that either / or thinking means to view something in terms of either one quality or its opposite e.g. a holy book or religion is right or wrong. But it is not appropriate to view all things like that e.g. you don’t view Oasis as just having one quality or its opposite. For some things “either / or” thinking is appropriate, e.g. virginity (one either is one or one is not one - stop giggling), but for others, it is not.

But as someone else stated everything is a sedative? Job, hobbies, whatever.... lol.... I dunno man...

Can’t speak for others!

I only know like three people in the offline world lol...... I guess some trusted me, some even with their lives... But that was then and we are now. If I have an objective goal and so on... I can focus and yes I can be trusted to get it done... But my own personal judgement. Mumbling and muttering in my cranium? Oh no, we don't listen to that.... That ends in bad things.

Well we’re all unique. All 8 billion of us. If you’re aware how bad things follow, maybe you should address that, if you want to? What starts it off? What is the process?

So with yew, unlike a few others I was talking to, are realy into this spiritual world thing. So why can't they help guide you? :\ save you all this farting aboot!

Now it’s my turn: What do you mean please?

s.


PS freaky avatar!!!

 

[17th Angel]

I would say that either / or thinking means to view something in terms of either one quality or its opposite e.g. a holy book or religion is right or wrong. But it is not appropriate to view all things like that e.g. you don’t view Oasis as just having one quality or its opposite. For some things “either / or” thinking is appropriate, e.g. virginity (one either is one or one is not one - stop giggling), but for others, it is not.

Ah I get it now aiiiiiight...

Can’t speak for others!



Well we’re all unique. All 8 billion of us. If you’re aware how bad things follow, maybe you should address that, if you want to? What starts it off? What is the process?

Fair enough.

No idea... Too many questions in one hit... I got brain freeze.

So with yew, unlike a few others I was talking to, are realy into this spiritual world thing. So why can't they help guide you? :\ save you all this farting aboot!

Now it’s my turn: What do you mean please?

Well, you know... You're into spiritual thangs... and such and paths.... But you say we are all farting around in the dark... But if there are spirits there, why don't they help you out? Instead of leaving to fart around...

PS freaky avatar!!!

Oh you know it!

 

[Snoopy]

Well, you know... You're into spiritual thangs... and such and paths.... But you say we are all farting around in the dark... But if there are spirits there, why don't they help you out? Instead of leaving to fart around...

Well, yes farting: nebulous stuff, but vital. However, due to the very nature of the ahem, subject, ain't nobody or no thing gonna go "TA DA Yes, you've got it!!!" (I believe). Hence the farting.

Regarding your specific question, I don't believe in "spirits" (assuming we have the same sort of idea as to what "spirits" are) nor am I expecting or looking to any external (to "me") agency (including spirits) to "help me out."

s.

 

[17th Angel]

Well, yes farting: nebulous stuff, but vital. However, due to the very nature of the ahem, subject, ain't nobody or no thing gonna go "TA DA Yes, you've got it!!!" (I believe). Hence the farting.

Regarding your specific question, I don't believe in "spirits" (assuming we have the same sort of idea as to what "spirits" are) nor am I expecting or looking to any external (to "me") agency (including spirits) to "help me out."

s.

Well, then I stand corrected....

And you believe in your opinion that the farting around is a must because it gives you some form of spiritual life experience to help you along your way? Ok I got it.

 

[Snoopy]

And you believe in your opinion that the farting around is a must because it gives you some form of spiritual life experience to help you along your way? Ok I got it.

I think we can simply say yes to that, especially since it's dinner time

s.