Christians are Free to Accept Reincarnation

Bruce Michael

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My Companions,
Christians are free beings; and this freedom is vouchsafed by our Dear Christ. Christians increasingly, now and in the future, will come naturally to understand the truth of reincarnation. There is no argument against direct experience.

We have passed the time when disbelief in the doctrine did serve a purpose. And that purpose was to direct us to earthly life.


The wonderful truths of reincarnation do make a heap of sense.

So many of the hard-hearted fundamentalists have neglected to tell us of the evidences of reincarnation within the Holy Scriptures. Really though, the Holy Bible leaves us free- it neither fully supports nor rejects the doctrine.

At all times we must be careful not to be Bible thumpers, for then we commit the sin of idolatry. Yes indeed, we don't want to worship the graven image in print and paper rather than the Living God. Goodness me, the Bible is not inerrant. What nonsense! Only Father God is Perfect.

Of course, our Lord did not commit pen to papyrus- He certainly knew the pitfalls of the "dead letter".


In Freedom of Belief,
-Br.Bruce

 
As cardinal Schörnborn states, "As far as I know, the Church has never formally condemned the doctrine of reincarnation: not because she might regard it as a doctrine that could be compatible with the Christian faith, but on the contrary because reincarnation so obviously contradicts the very principles of this faith that a condemnation has never seemed necessary."
Reincarnation: The Answer of Faith | Christoph Schönborn | An excerpt from "From Death to Life: The Christian Journey"

Christians are free to accept or reject reincarnation, but for any Christian who actually understands the basics of his or her faith, the question does not even arise.

Thomas
 
If one looks to Tradition, there is no support for Reincarnation:
Reincarnation

"Members of what is commonly called the "New Age" movement often claim that early Christians believed in reincarnation. Shirley MacLaine, an avid New Age disciple, recalls being taught: "The theory of reincarnation is recorded in the Bible. But the proper interpretations were struck from it during an ecumenical council meeting of the Catholic Church in Constantinople sometime around A.D. 553, called the Council of Nicaea [sic]" (Out on a Limb, 234–35).

Historical facts provide no basis for this claim. In fact, there was no Council of Nicaea in A.D. 553. Further, the two ecumenical councils of Nicaea (A.D. 325 and A.D. 787) took place in the city of Nicaea (hence their names)—and neither dealt with reincarnation. What did take place in A.D. 553 was the Second Ecumenical Council of Constantinople. But records from this Council show that it, too, did not address the subject of reincarnation. None of the early councils did.

The closest the Second Council of Constantinople came to addressing reincarnation was, in one sentence, to condemn Origen, an early Church writer who believed souls exist in heaven before coming to earth to be born. New Agers confuse this belief in the preexistence of the soul with reincarnation and claim that Origen was a reincarnationist. Actually, he was one of the most prolific early writers against reincarnation! Because he is so continually misrepresented by New Agers, we have included a number of his quotes below, along with passages from other sources, all of which date from before A.D. 553, when the doctrine of reincarnation was supposedly "taken out of the Bible."

The origin of Shirley MacLaine’s mistaken notion that Origen taught reincarnation is probably Reincarnation in Christianity, by Geddes MacGregor—a book published by the Theosophical Publishing House in 1978. The author speculates that Origen’s texts written in support of the belief in reincarnation somehow disappeared or were suppressed. Admitting he has no evidence, MacGregor nonetheless asserts: "I am convinced he taught reincarnation in some form" (58). You may judge from the passages below whether this seems likely.

Irenaeus
"We may undermine [the Hellenists’] doctrine as to transmigration from body to body by this fact—that souls remember nothing whatever of the events which took place in their previous states of existence. For if they were sent forth with this object, that they should have experience of every kind of action, they must of necessity retain a remembrance of those things which have been previously accomplished, that they might fill up those in which they were still deficient, and not by always hovering, without intermission, through the same pursuits, spend their labor wretchedly in vain. . . . With reference to these objections, Plato . . . attempted no kind of proof, but simply replied dogmatically that when souls enter into this life they are caused to drink of oblivion by that demon who watches their entrance, before they effect an entrance into the bodies. It escaped him that he fell into another, greater perplexity. For if the cup of oblivion, after it has been drunk, can obliterate the memory of all the deeds that have been done, how, O Plato, do you obtain the knowledge of this fact . . . ?" (Against Heresies 2:33:1–2 [A.D. 189]).

Tertullian
"Come now, if some philosopher affirms, as Laberius holds, following an opinion of Pythagoras, that a man may have his origin from a mule, a serpent from a woman, and with skill of speech twists every argument to prove his view, will he not gain an acceptance for it [among the pagans], and work in some conviction that on account of this, they should abstain from eating animal food? May anyone have the persuasion that he should abstain, lest, by chance, in his beef he eats some ancestor of his? But if a Christian promises the return of a man from a man, and the very actual Gaius [resurrected] from Gaius . . . they will not . . . grant him a hearing. If there is any ground for the moving to and fro of human souls into different bodies, why may they not return to the very matter they have left . . . ?" (Apology 48 [A.D. 197]).

Origen
"[Scripture says] ‘And they asked him, "What then? Are you Elijah?" and he said, "I am not"’ [John 1:21]. No one can fail to remember in this connection what Jesus says of John: ‘If you will receive it, this is Elijah, who is to come’ [Matt. 11:14]. How then does John come to say to those who ask him, ‘Are you Elijah?’—‘I am not’? . . . One might say that John did not know that he was Elijah. This will be the explanation of those who find in our passage a support for their doctrine of reincarnation, as if the soul clothed itself in a fresh body and did not quite remember its former lives. . . . [H]owever, a churchman, who repudiates the doctrine of reincarnation as a false one and does not admit that the soul of John was ever Elijah, may appeal to the above-quoted words of the angel, and point out that it is not the soul of Elijah that is spoken of at John’s birth, but the spirit and power of Elijah" (Commentary on John 6:7 [A.D. 229]).

"As for the spirits of the prophets, these are given to them by God and are spoken of as being in a manner their property [slaves], as ‘The spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets’ [1 Cor. 14:32] and ‘The spirit of Elijah rested upon Elisha’ [2 Kgs. 2:15]. Thus, it is said, there is nothing absurd in supposing that John, ‘in the spirit and power of Elijah,’ turned the hearts of the fathers to the children and that it was on account of this spirit that he was called ‘Elijah who is to come’" (ibid.).

"If the doctrine [of reincarnation] was widely current, ought not John to have hesitated to pronounce upon it, lest his soul had actually been in Elijah? And here our churchman will appeal to history, and will bid his antagonists [to] ask experts of the secret doctrines of the Hebrews if they do really entertain such a belief. For if it should appear that they do not, then the argument based on that supposition is shown to be quite baseless" (ibid.).

"Someone might say, however, that Herod and some of those of the people held the false dogma of the transmigration of souls into bodies, in consequence of which they thought that the former John had appeared again by a fresh birth, and had come from the dead into life as Jesus. But the time between the birth of John and the birth of Jesus, which was not more than six months, does not permit this false opinion to be considered credible. And perhaps rather some such idea as this was in the mind of Herod, that the powers which worked in John had passed over to Jesus, in consequence of which he was thought by the people to be John the Baptist. And one might use the following line of argument: Just as because the spirit and the power of Elijah, and not because of his soul, it is said about John, ‘This is Elijah who is to come’ [Matt. 11:14] . . . so Herod thought that the powers in John’s case worked in him works of baptism and teaching—for John did not do one miracle [John 10:41]—but in Jesus [they worked] miraculous portents" (Commentary on Matthew 10:20 [A.D. 248]).

"Now the Canaanite woman, having come, worshipped Jesus as God, saying, ‘Lord, help me,’ but he answered and said, ‘It is not possible to take the children’s bread and cast it to the little dogs.’ . . . [O]thers, then, who are strangers to the doctrine of the Church, assume that souls pass from the bodies of men into the bodies of dogs, according to their varying degree of wickedness; but we . . . do not find this at all in the divine Scripture" (ibid., 11:17).

"In this place [when Jesus said Elijah was come and referred to John the Baptist] it does not appear to me that by Elijah the soul is spoken of, lest I fall into the doctrine of transmigration, which is foreign to the Church of God, and not handed down by the apostles, nor anywhere set forth in the scriptures" (ibid., 13:1).

...

"But if . . . the Greeks, who introduce the doctrine of transmigration, laying down things in harmony with it, do not acknowledge that the world is coming to corruption, it is fitting that when they have looked the scriptures straight in the face which plainly declare that the world will perish, they should either disbelieve them or invent a series of arguments in regard to the interpretation of things concerning the consummation; which even if they wish they will not be able to do" (ibid.).

Lactantius
"What of Pythagoras, who was first called a philosopher, who judged that souls were indeed immortal, but that they passed into other bodies, either of cattle or of birds or of beasts? Would it not have been better that they should be destroyed, together with their bodies, than thus to be condemned to pass into the bodies of other animals? Would it not be better not to exist at all than, after having had the form of a man, to live as a swine or a dog? And the foolish man, to gain credit for his saying, said that he himself had been Euphorbus in the Trojan war, and that when he had been slain he passed into other figures of animals, and at last became Pythagoras. O happy man!—to whom alone so great a memory was given! Or rather unhappy, who when changed into a sheep was not permitted to be ignorant of what he was! And would to heaven that he [Pythagoras] alone had been thus senseless!" (Epitome of the Divine Institutes 36 [A.D. 317]).

Gregory of Nyssa
"f one should search carefully, he will find that their doctrine is of necessity brought down to this. They tell us that one of their sages said that he, being one and the same person, was born a man, and afterward assumed the form of a woman, and flew about with the birds, and grew as a bush, and obtained the life of an aquatic creature—and he who said these things of himself did not, so far as I can judge, go far from the truth, for such doctrines as this—of saying that one should pass through many changes—are really fitting for the chatter of frogs or jackdaws or the stupidity of fishes or the insensibility of trees" (The Making of Man 28:3 [A.D. 379]).

Ambrose of Milan
"It is a cause for wonder that though they [the heathen] . . . say that souls pass and migrate into other bodies. . . . But let those who have not been taught doubt [the resurrection]. For us who have read the law, the prophets, the apostles, and the gospel, it is not lawful to doubt" (Belief in the Resurrection 65–66 [A.D. 380]).

"But is their opinion preferable who say that our souls, when they have passed out of these bodies, migrate into the bodies of beasts or of various other living creatures? . . . For what is so like a marvel as to believe that men could have been changed into the forms of beasts? How much greater a marvel, however, would it be that the soul which rules man should take on itself the nature of a beast so opposed to that of man, and being capable of reason should be able to pass over to an irrational animal, than that the form of the body should have been changed?" (ibid., 127).

John Chrysostom
"As for doctrines on the soul, there is nothing excessively shameful that they [the disciples of Plato and Pythagoras] have left unsaid, asserting that the souls of men become flies and gnats and bushes and that God himself is a [similar] soul, with some other the like indecencies. . . . At one time he says that the soul is of the substance of God; at another, after having exalted it thus immoderately and impiously, he exceeds again in a different way, and treats it with insult, making it pass into swine and asses and other animals of yet less esteem than these" (Homilies on John 2:3, 6 [A.D. 391]).

Basil the Great
"[A]void the nonsense of those arrogant philosophers who do not blush to liken their soul to that of a dog, who say that they have themselves formerly been women, shrubs, or fish. Have they ever been fish? I do not know, but I do not fear to affirm that in their writings they show less sense than fish" (The Six Days’ Work 8:2 [A.D. 393])."


Thomas
 
Thomas said:
Christians are free to accept or reject reincarnation, but for any Christian who actually understands the basics of his or her faith, the question does not even arise.

Never? Ever? :)

(Oh, I see you have posted again--I'll read....)

InPeace,
InLove
 
It seems as a Christian who strictly follows scripture and canonized understanding you would have a difficulty seeing where it could possibly fit in? But as a more unorthodox Christian who doesn't neccessarily take the previous church authorities as an authority you could accept it within your own personal philosophy?

Have there really been no persons of "good standing" in Christianity who may have believed in Reincarnation in the distant past?

It seems to me that Jesus could have categorically denied or accepted the theory in this instance below, but did neither (although understandably it is also a special case). So at least his disciples must have been curious about the idea?

John 9,2

1 As he passed by he saw a man blind from birth.
2 His disciples asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?"
3 Jesus answered, "Neither he nor his parents sinned; it is so that the works of God might be made visible through him.
4 We have to do the works of the one who sent me while it is day. Night is coming when no one can work.
5 While I am in the world, I am the light of the world."

Best wishes,

... Neemai :)
 
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Hi Neemai. I’m glad to see you posting. I’ve been missing your input.

Neemai said:
It seems as a Christian who strictly follows scripture and canonized understanding you would have a difficulty seeing where it could possibly fit in? But as a more unorthodox Christian who doesn't neccessarily take the previous church authorities as an authority you could accept it within your own personal philosophy?
Yes, I’d say that is a valid observation. My thoughts regarding the subject of reincarnation are not musings I would attempt to preach as indisputable knowledge, by any means. And I have no interest in trying to prove that reincarnation is supported by Scripture, as I don't think there is enough said therein to absolutely address it, and so therefore, it is not important enough to me to get all worked up over. In fact, I wouldn’t even say that they are necessarily part of any philosophy of mine. They are just my thoughts, and they don’t fit into any doctrine or teaching that I know of, be it Christian or otherwise. The concept of reincarnation that I ponder is not exactly the same as, say that of Buddhist or Hindu traditions…nor New Age… nor Theosophy…

That said, I also do not think anyone, including the Church Fathers, can say for sure, in detail, what takes place after we pass from this world, or what wonders Heaven and eternity may hold. :)

InPeace,
InLove
 
It seems as a Christian who strictly follows scripture and canonized understanding you would have a difficulty seeing where it could possibly fit in? But as a more unorthodox Christian who doesn't neccessarily take the previous church authorities as an authority you could accept it within your own personal philosophy?

This is part of the problem — 'Christianity' as a definition then becomes meaningless, or rather the assumption that Christianity is whatever I want it to be. That's where we are today.

To paraphrase a Sufi master:
"Once Christianity was a way without a name, now it is a name without a way."

Have there really been no persons of "good standing" in Christianity who may have believed in Reincarnation in the distant past?

A good question. Catholicism holds that no Father is infallible, and that every Father, and some point, has been in error (except Gregory Nazienzen). But reincarnation ... I don't know of one who proposed that, if you believe in the Christian notion of the person, then reincarnation is ruled out.

The point is that Christian teachings are based on the reality of the person as being the manifest form of the soul. The person, soul and body are one and indivisible, so if the same soul reincarnates, so does the same body, and the same person ... so that a reincarnated being would say, "as I was saying, before I was so rudely interrupted by my own death ... "

It seems to me that Jesus could have categorically denied or accepted the theory in this instance below, but did neither (although understandably it is also a special case).
Well now you get into orthodoxy. Jesus was a Jew. Orthodox Judaism did not support the idea of reincarnation — it was never part of their tradition — so it would not have figured in their argument.

So at least his disciples must have been curious about the idea?
Same thing. The notion would be alien to their way of thinking.

John 9:1-3
"And Jesus passing by, saw a man who was blind from his birth. And his disciples asked him: Rabbi, who hath sinned, this man or his parents, that he should be born blind? Jesus answered: Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents; but that the works of God should be made manifest in him."

This (and other texts like them) are not about reincarnation but about sin — is the son being punished for the sins of the father? Remember the Jews had no conception of a pre-existing soul, so the idea that the man sinned in another life is discounted.

The point here is that we are dependent upon tradition and commentary to understand our religious texts, be they Scripture, Vedas, whatever. I think all who propose the reincarnation argument have a shallow understanding of Scripture.

Another text:
Matthew 8:27
"And Jesus went out, and his disciples into the towns of Caesarea Philippi. And in the way, he asked his disciples, saying to them: Whom do men say that I am? Who answered him, saying: John the Baptist; but some Elias, and others as one of the prophets."
None of them are saying that Jesus is the reincarnation of that person, but that the Spirit who moved that person moves Jesus. This is something ignored or not understood by those who insist that Scripture implies reincarnation.

Thomas
 
From the same article that Thomas quoted:

Reincarnation: The Answer of Faith said:
Reincarnation has no place in Christianity because life in Christ is already its ultimate goal. "But Christ is the end", says Hölderlin in the late hymn Der Einzige. What more could one seek, when one has found him? Have we not found everything in him? In him there is no place for the endless search, from life to life, for a distant, unattainable goal, for a perfection that is not to be reached in aeons. The end has come to us; it is already present (cf. 1 Cor 10:11). Man's long search is at an end. What we could not find through endless re- births has been given to us.

Why on earth would I, as a Christian, who has found that spiritual connection to God, would want to come back here if I've already found what I was looking for? For that matter, someone in any religion who has found God or the Ultimate, need not return to seek Him all over again. It would be pointless foor our memories to be wiped clean after already found the Answer to grope again for the Answer all over again.

Would we not have a choice to return, if per se, we didn't find the Answer? Maybe reincarnation is meant for those who haven't found it yet, or who have ignored it altogether, or perchance they never had an opportunity to seek it either through ignorance, mental retardation, of infant death/sudden death. But in as far as those who outright rejected the Answer, living to themselves only, I fear that the Righteous Judge would be hesitant to send such back to earth lest they be prone to commit the same sins. That would seem a bit unfair to those in the former case above.
 
If one believes that reincarnation makes a mockery of Jesus's sacrifice that is their paradigm. Other Christians many other Christians do not see it that way and that is their paradigm.

When I say many I'm referring to every Catholic I have ever personally met from Brazil. The church is awfully proud of the inroads they've made in Brazil, the high percentage of Catholics and what their numbers represent, however speaking to those Brazilian Catholics, reincarnation is very much part of their belief system, and fully accepted by the religious hierarchy.

If one believes in a forgiving G!d...the whole 70 times 7 thing....how would that G!d allow otherwise?
 
If one believes that reincarnation makes a mockery of Jesus's sacrifice that is their paradigm. Other Christians many other Christians do not see it that way and that is their paradigm.

When I say many I'm referring to every Catholic I have ever personally met from Brazil. The church is awfully proud of the inroads they've made in Brazil, the high percentage of Catholics and what their numbers represent, however speaking to those Brazilian Catholics, reincarnation is very much part of their belief system, and fully accepted by the religious hierarchy.

If one believes in a forgiving G!d...the whole 70 times 7 thing....how would that G!d allow otherwise?

Yeah, but reincarnation would only make sense if for some reason Christ's Sacrifice was not effected on a person. If Christ took the sins of that person the first time, then what need for another recycled life? Would not that Sacrifice be sufficient to grant eternal life? Otherwise, it would have to be that somehow they lacked the faith to effect that Sacrifice in their lives the first time and had to be reincarnated to try again. But then, wouldn't they have virtually forgot their former Catholic life and had to start from scratch again? What if they aren't even born into a Catholic family again?

I just don't see how reincarnation would operate in the construct of Christianity. Maybe you could enlighten me?
 
Yeah, but reincarnation would only make sense if for some reason Christ's Sacrifice was not effected on a person. If Christ took the sins of that person the first time, then what need for another recycled life?
If one does not accept the teachings of Christ, or otherwise complete whatever G!d had instore for us on this earth, couldn't it be possible that G!d give us another shot or two at the golden ring? As a parent would you only give your child one chance to do the right thing? ARRGGHHH you fell off your bike....we are getting rid of that now.
Would not that Sacrifice be sufficient to grant eternal life?
And reincarnation is not eternal life how?
Otherwise, it would have to be that somehow they lacked the faith to effect that Sacrifice in their lives the first time and had to be reincarnated to try again. But then, wouldn't they have virtually forgot their former Catholic life and had to start from scratch again?
Could be, or could be that once you've got to third grade you graduate to fourth and have some new issues to deal with.
What if they aren't even born into a Catholic family again?
And that would be an issue why?
I just don't see how reincarnation would operate in the construct of Christianity. Maybe you could enlighten me?
I shouldn't be so presumptuous that I could, nor that you needed it! As I tried to indicate if your belief does not include it, that is not an issue with me, nor does it preclude that my belief can't.
 
Why on earth would I, as a Christian, who has found that spiritual connection to God, would want to come back here if I've already found what I was looking for? For that matter, someone in any religion who has found God or the Ultimate, need not return to seek Him all over again. It would be pointless foor our memories to be wiped clean after already found the Answer to grope again for the Answer all over again.

The whole point of Yoga (or similar paths within Hinduism) in regards to reincarnation is to remove oneself from the cycle of re-birth, not to stay within it. Once perfection is achieved (i.e love of God) then one never takes birth again in this mortal world.

The living entity in the material world carries his different conceptions of life from one body to another as the air carries aromas. Thus he takes one kind of body and again quits it to take another. (Bhagavad-Gita 15.8)

But one who attains to My abode, O son of Kunti never takes birth again. (Bhagavad-Gita 8.16)

If one simply saw Jesus as his guru, or guide to God (and was thus a Christian) I couldn't see how reincarnation would cause any problems to that person? It depends on how much other church teachings you accept along with core Christianity from the Bible?

... Neemai :)
 
The point is that Christian teachings are based on the reality of the person as being the manifest form of the soul. The person, soul and body are one and indivisible, so if the same soul reincarnates, so does the same body, and the same person ... so that a reincarnated being would say, "as I was saying, before I was so rudely interrupted by my own death ... "

That's an interesting point, and is very key to this issue - Is there a scriptural text this is directly based on?

In comparison, the Eastern religious traditions generally teach "you are not this body, you are an eternal soul" which is about as philosophically opposed to the above as you could get.

Best Wishes,


... Neemai :)
 
I should probably refrain from being outspoken, but ...

As Neemai points out, everyone in the West seems intent on introducing a doctrine which the East regards as unfortunate in the first place!

The West's idea of reincarnation has turned a negative into a positive. Can someone explain where and how that came about?

In my view, it's founded on the security idea that I don't have to make any effort really, cos I get another go, and another, and another ... using Buddhism to cop out of the tough bits of Christianity, Christianity to cop out of the tough bits of Buddhism ...

I'll ask again, where, in 2,000 years of a pretty prolific written history, is the evidence for the belief in reincarnation ... without it, it's just speculation and opinion based on personal prejudice.


Thomas
 
If one does not accept the teachings of Christ, or otherwise complete whatever G!d had instore for us on this earth, couldn't it be possible that G!d give us another shot or two at the golden ring? As a parent would you only give your child one chance to do the right thing? ARRGGHHH you fell off your bike....we are getting rid of that now.

I sorta made that point up in post #8.

And reincarnation is not eternal life how?

It is not eternal life, for it still consists of pain, suffering, and death. What I envision is something like Revelation 21:4:

"And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."


Could be, or could be that once you've got to third grade you graduate to fourth and have some new issues to deal with.

Right, but you remember what you did in third grade. Otherwise how could you graduate to fourth without the knowledge you've already gained in third grade? You don't go back to kindergarten.

And that would be an issue why?

What is that saying? "Once a Catholic, always a Catholic"? But let's say you were born into a (heaven forbid!) Baptist family? Wouldn't that be a concern to these Brazilion Catholics?

What if you were reborn into some native cannibal tribe in Africa? That would kinda be a backward move, wouldn't it? Or worse, what if you were reincarnated into a skunk? You'd really have problems getting a date, that's for sure!

I shouldn't be so presumptuous that I could, nor that you needed it! As I tried to indicate if your belief does not include it, that is not an issue with me, nor does it preclude that my belief can't.

wil, even though I've been on this board a long time and have gotten to know you somewhat, but I'm still really not sure just what exactly you believe. Nor am I condemning the fact that you might wish to integrate reincarnation with Christianity. That's your business. I'm not trying to judge you either way. I'm merely asking questions.
 
I
What is that saying? "Once a Catholic, always a Catholic"? But let's say you were born into a (heaven forbid!) Baptist family? Wouldn't that be a concern to these Brazilion Catholics?

What if you were reborn into some native cannibal tribe in Africa? That would kinda be a backward move, wouldn't it? Or worse, what if you were reincarnated into a skunk? You'd really have problems getting a date, that's for sure!

wil, even though I've been on this board a long time and have gotten to know you somewhat, but I'm still really not sure just what exactly you believe. Nor am I condemning the fact that you might wish to integrate reincarnation with Christianity. That's your business. I'm not trying to judge you either way. I'm merely asking questions.
Namaste and no worries Dondi!

I am not trying to integrate reincarnation into Christianity....that was done long before this incarnation. As for once a Catholic always a Catholic, the second largest denomination of Christians is non-practicing Catholics....and they are in every denomination!

As for what you incarnate as...steps forward, steps back...I just related in the non-duality thread how a huge step back in my life meant a huge step forward...I can see how there is learning to be had in all of creation, in any incarnation...and foundations developed in subconscious that will continue to benefit in the future.

I don't see one forgetting everything...maybe consciously forgetting much...but subconsciously it is there....hence amazing mathematicians, musicians, etc. that are wise beyond their years...as kids they know more than folks that spend their lifetime in studies....
 
Wil,


You said,
"...speaking to those Brazilian Catholics, reincarnation is very much part of their belief system, and fully accepted by the religious hierarchy."
--> Wow, I did not know that. Thanks for sharing that. I am glad to see Thomas-like prohibitions are growing fewer and fewer. Progress is being made!

I am also fascinated by the question of Catholics being reincarnated as Baptists, and vice versa. I am sure it happens all the time. Fortunately, each such "cross-over reincarnation" will help increase tolerance on both sides of the cross-over.
 
I am glad to see Thomas-like prohibitions are growing fewer and fewer.

sadly Nick, again you seem ill-informed with regard to Christian doctrine, or Catholicism at least — there is no prohibition in Catholic doctrine with regard to reincarnation, rather it simply doesn't fit within the Christian paradigm of the 'person'. There was never seen to be a need, because there never was a question of reincarnation ever being 'on the table' as it were, until the sentimentalism of the Romantics of the last century ...

Christianity, and the Abrahamic Traditions, who believe in the Revelation of a Personal God — a God who 'relates' in an Immanent way with His creature — a God who knows and can be known ('personal' is a poor term to describe an ineffable mystery) treat the idea of Divine Union as precisely that, a Union of 'I' and 'Thou' that is the Supreme Gift of God.

The idea of a being moving through a succession of 'I's (which would require the 'I' to be contingent and relative to some meta-nature that the 'I' is a manifestation of) then becomes untenable Scripturally and metaphysically — as God wills that each man be saved, not that a given number of souls can be abandoned as some indeterminate meta-soul moves towards a supposed perfection ...

... in the same way we do not view the soul as something distinct and separate from the body, but rather that the body is the soul manifest in corporeal terms ...

... without going into detail, there's a raft of philosophical and metaphysical reasons why reincarnation is untenable in the Christian metaphysics. If you want more data, I've referenced a raft of sources above ... Origen's a good one, as he seems liked by Theosophists, and refuted the notion on more than one occasion.

There is the doctrine of reincarnation, and the doctrine of resurrection.
The two are incompatible, we are founded on the latter.

Thomas
 
If reincarnation is true, what is the purpose of Christ's death, burial, and resurrection if we are going to "reboot" anyway?
 
If reincarnation is true, what is the purpose of Christ's death, burial, and resurrection if we are going to "reboot" anyway?
In my current belief.... he showed us the way. He showed what is possible. Whether we achieve 'these and greater' in this life or the next is upto us.
 
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