Christians are Free to Accept Reincarnation

[Snoopy]

My understanding of re-birth is that in every moment we are reborn in the image of our thoughts, actions, and desires. Instant karma. We can shape the dharma of our lives to facilitate becoming who we want to be, but in all cases what we are becoming is the IS that we Are.

Chris

The fruit of our volitional actions may ripen quickly or slowly. That they will ripen though, is a law (in the scientific sense, rather than a legal).


“The term "kamma" never comprises the result of action, as most people in the West, misled by Theosophy, wish this term to be understood. Kamma is wholesome or unwholesome volitional action and kamma-vipaka is the result of action.”


Fundamentals of Buddhism



“kamma [kamma; Skt. karma]: Intentional acts that result in states of being and birth."

"vipaka [vipaaka]: The consequence and result of a past volitional action.”

A Glossary of Pali and Buddhist Terms




s.

 

[cyberpi]

Why on earth would I, as a Christian, who has found that spiritual connection to God, would want to come back here if I've already found what I was looking for? For that matter, someone in any religion who has found God or the Ultimate, need not return to seek Him all over again. It would be pointless foor our memories to be wiped clean after already found the Answer to grope again for the Answer all over again.

Would we not have a choice to return, if per se, we didn't find the Answer? Maybe reincarnation is meant for those who haven't found it yet, or who have ignored it altogether, or perchance they never had an opportunity to seek it either through ignorance, mental retardation, of infant death/sudden death. But in as far as those who outright rejected the Answer, living to themselves only, I fear that the Righteous Judge would be hesitant to send such back to earth lest they be prone to commit the same sins. That would seem a bit unfair to those in the former case above.

I can't believe I am hearing this?! Why would a person leave their comfort zone and travel to a foreign country in a strange land, full of strangers... and full of poverty? Reminds me of a saying... "When in Rome, ..."

 

[Bruce Michael]

That's an interesting point, and is very key to this issue - Is there a scriptural text this is directly based on?

In comparison, the Eastern religious traditions generally teach "you are not this body, you are an eternal soul" which is about as philosophically opposed to the above as you could get.

Best Wishes,


... Neemai

Greetings Neemai,
Do you have an understanding that the spirit is distinct from the soul? In the early Church there was the teaching that Man had a soul, body and spirit.

What is the nature of the soul?:

one can say how it feels, and that the beauty of such is as a reflection of sunlight upon the water. For this is the reflection from His Being; out of which we have our spirit-spark enclothed in soul.

-The Brothers

I think the argument is won through the reasonableness of reincarnation compared with the "one shot" chance.

It wasn't until a Council of Constantinople in 553, that reincarnation was officially thrown out of the Church.

The majority of Christians today, don't realise just how widespread the belief in repeated earth lives was amongst the Jews.

Kind Regards,
Bruce

 

[Neemai]

Greetings Neemai,
Do you have an understanding that the spirit is distinct from the soul? In the early Church there was the teaching that Man had a soul, body and spirit.

What is the nature of the soul?:

Hello Bruce - how would you differentiate between spirit and soul?

The Eastern texts I follow generally describe:

*) the soul ('atma') which is eternal (consciousness - the 'you' part)
*) a collection of subtle bodies (mind, intelligence etc...) which survive physical death but are nonetheless non-eternal.
*) and the solid body (made of senses and gross matter) which is always changing and ultimately temporary - much like a vehicle you drive within, but not identify yourself with in any eternal sense.

Does this sound similar to the 'soul, spirit and body' you mention, from the early church, or are the terms described differently?

Best Wishes,


... Neemai

 

[Thomas]

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[Thomas]

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[Dondi]

Then do you see a difference between the Resurrection Body and a purely spiritual being?

Absolutely. I don't think we will be just etheral spirit floating around like Casper. There will be some kind substance to our spiritual bodies.

Flesh but no bones.

Don't know what you are saying here. Luke 24 clearly says flesh and bones.

But you won't have a bowel in that body. Unfortunately babies are born like this today- the future model is in place but few are ready to exist like that today.

There will be nothing wasted.

There are different kinds of pain. Some can already withdraw from all physical pain. But emotional pain is another thing. If our conscience is finely tuned we can experience the suffering of many others.

It is important that the entire Christian Church embrace the doctrine of repeated earth lives. The old Augustinian model of predestination has long had its day. As an explanation of the different circumstances human beings find themselves in at birth, it is totally haphazard and at odds with a God of Justice and Love.

"Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."
Matthew 5:48

Perfection isn't won in a day or even three score and ten years.

Depends on your definition of perfect. There were several figure mentioned in the OT who were considered blameless before the Lord, yet did have faults: Noah, for one. Also, Job.

Bananabrain could probably elaborate more on this idea of being blameless.

Being perfect does not necessarily mean being complete. But it is an attitude of committment toward God and toward others. Yes, we do have growing and learning to do. I don't think we will be stagnant in eternity. But we will learn without the pain and suffering.

In Revelation 21, there is the Tree of Life that bears fruit for the healing of the nations. Whether or not that implies a literal fruit or not is beside the point. Just suffice to say that the total Presence of God will be experienced to instantly heal the brokenhearted.

"Elias and many other famous men were to actually return, and all the people were from time to time expecting them..."

Elias will return, as evident in Revelation 11, but he will return in his own body.You will recall that he was taken up in a "chariot of fire", which I have no doubt is a figure of speech, but he did not suffer death in the conventional sense.

 

[Dondi]

I can't believe I am hearing this?! Why would a person leave their comfort zone and travel to a foreign country in a strange land, full of strangers... and full of poverty?

Funny, perhaps that is a question you ought to ask Jesus. Seems He did the same thing coming here.

 

[wil]

Would we not have a choice to return, if per se, we didn't find the Answer? Maybe reincarnation is meant for those who haven't found it yet, or who have ignored it altogether, or perchance they never had an opportunity to seek it either through ignorance, mental retardation, of infant death/sudden death. But in as far as those who outright rejected the Answer, living to themselves only, I fear that the Righteous Judge would be hesitant to send such back to earth lest they be prone to commit the same sins. That would seem a bit unfair to those in the former case above.

Namaste Dondi,

This is what it is about, contemplation. What if you get to the other side and find out the degree of enlightenment that can be grown through experiences on earth, and how well the elementary education in this plane can prepare you for further growth and adventures in the next. What if you find your acceptance of Jesus as your Saviour is your admission ticket, however you wish to have more, ie really understand and be forgiveness and unconditional love as was taught by the master and not merely give lip service to it as is quite common. Don't you think it possible you'd want to come back for another ride on the kids coaster to better prepare you?

 

[InLove]

Oh, what the heck--I'll throw this out there. Please, please, please do not think I am preaching this or saying it is the way things are. I'm just playing the "what if" thing. I don't think we are condemned for having "what if" thoughts.

So, "what if", setting aside karma and salvation--I mean, say your salvation is already secured or you have no negative karma (however you think of these concepts), "what if" one had the choice to come back in order to be of service to "others". What if your return, either here or in a parallel existence, was actually in service to God?

Like I said, I am just letting my thoughts run free here, not presenting dogma. I'll probably be sorry I said it anyway.

InPeace,
InLove

 

[wil]

So, "what if", setting aside karma and salvation--I mean, say your salvation is already secured or you have no negative karma (however you think of these concepts), "what if" one had the choice to come back in order to be of service to "others". What if your return, either here or in a parallel existence, was actually in service to God?

And what would that look like? Would that always look like wine and roses? Or would service to others be that person teaching you forgiveness, by giving you the opportunity to forgive. Could that person that is always late be teaching me patience? Could my child that is so troubling at this moment be a kind soul teaching me acceptance? Could my parent/brother/boss/coworker be teaching me unconditional love?

What teaches us these principles best? Some book? Some speaker? or overcoming some major issue that causes us to grow?

What if this is heaven? And it is upto us to see it as so?

 

[InLove]

Hi wil--I don't know. I'm thinking that "Heaven" may be many things we have never considered, simply because we have never thought of it (or don't remember ), I have a feeling that we certainly do place many artificial constraints on it, though. I think we do it, most often inadvertantly, by trying so hard to define it.

InPeace,
InLove

 

[Neemai]

So, "what if", setting aside karma and salvation--I mean, say your salvation is already secured or you have no negative karma (however you think of these concepts), "what if" one had the choice to come back in order to be of service to "others". What if your return, either here or in a parallel existence, was actually in service to God?

Reminds me of the theme of the compassionate Boddhisattva in Buddhism, or from Vaishnavism, the prayers of the saintly king, Prahlada:

My dear Lord, I see that there are many saintly persons indeed, but they are interested only in their own deliverance. Not caring for the big cities and towns, they go to the Himalayas or the forest to meditate with vows of silence [mauna-vrata]. They are not interested in delivering others. As for me, however, I do not wish to be liberated alone, leaving aside all other souls. I know that without enlightenment in God consciousness, without taking shelter of Your lotus feet - one cannot be happy. Therefore I wish to bring them back to shelter at Your lotus feet. (Bhagavata Purana 7.9.44)

Are there any records of similar themes existing within Christianity? Maybe from less orthodox sources?


... Neemai

 

[wil]

...My dear Lord, I see that there are many saintly persons indeed, but they are interested only in their own deliverance. Not caring for the big cities and towns, they go to the Himalayas or the forest to meditate with vows of silence [mauna-vrata]. They are not interested in delivering others. As for me, however, I do not wish to be liberated alone, leaving aside all other souls. I know that without enlightenment in God consciousness, without taking shelter of Your lotus feet - one cannot be happy. Therefore I wish to bring them back to shelter at Your lotus feet. (Bhagavata Purana 7.9.44)...Are there any records of similar themes existing within Christianity? Maybe from less orthodox sources?...

These sort of define a couple of paths of Christians, some enter the solitude of a monastery in prayer and contemplation, or in study, and others work the streets, preaching the gospel and bringing folks to Christ. There are biblical quotes to back either direction.

 

[Dondi]

Namaste Dondi,

This is what it is about, contemplation. What if you get to the other side and find out the degree of enlightenment that can be grown through experiences on earth, and how well the elementary education in this plane can prepare you for further growth and adventures in the next. What if you find your acceptance of Jesus as your Saviour is your admission ticket, however you wish to have more, ie really understand and be forgiveness and unconditional love as was taught by the master and not merely give lip service to it as is quite common. Don't you think it possible you'd want to come back for another ride on the kids coaster to better prepare you?

What I'm NOT saying is that we gain some kind of instant karma upon entering heaven. I believe that there will be an indoctrination process where we will be shown what we did right and what we did wrong in this life. That we will certainly feel loss that we weren't a bit kinder with this person or that. Or we neglected to do certain things. Or perhaps shown what our lives could have been had we not made choices so poorly. I certainly can acknowledge that I made some very wrong choices...choices that I regret, yet cannot change...choices that had a direct or indirect bearing on my spiritual growth. We all have. And there will be a sense of sorrow and loss over these.

Yet this will be followed by a sense of incredible forgiveness and healing in the Presence of a Merciful God, not because I necessarily deserve it (who really does?), but that I recognize the source of such healing coming from the One who created me, but also that I've experienced this forgiveness and healing even here and now while I've been on earth. I know the love that God has for me and can attest to it.

I suppose it's possible that God could me the choice to come back. Or possibly sent me back regardless of my wishes. I leave that for Him to judge. But given the choice, would I? I really couldn't say.

But what if eternal life opens up a world of choices and growth that we've never considered before. What if being in an immortal state would allow us to be loving and forgiving in a manner that we could not in our mortal bodies. what if we can touch the hem of His garment in such a way that all our bitterness and hatred just melts in the light of His Love. What if the openess of every man's heart is revealed, yet having known our own frailities, we are able to forgive the wrongs that we have done to others as they forgive us, just because we are in the midst of His powerful Presence. That all the negativity will disperse like a flash because of God's Holy Spirit.

Yes, there will be a purging of our souls, as it were, an adjustment toward immortality. But I think that is only the beginning of what's in store. Our life here on earth is like being an infant, knowing only the limits of our mortal lives. We are but in the womb still. But to enter eternity is to be born into immortality. We will be like children all over again, to explore limitless possibilities in our souls. To learn about things we've never imagined. To experiences relationships with peole on deeper levels than we ever had here on earth, even deeper than our own spouses or children.

Can you not see this as a possibility? What if there was no need to return here?

 

[InLove]

So, "what if", setting aside karma and salvation--I mean, say your salvation is already secured or you have no negative karma (however you think of these concepts), "what if" one had the choice to come back in order to be of service to "others". What if your return, either here or in a parallel existence, was actually in service to God?

Reminds me of the theme of the compassionate Boddhisattva in Buddhism, or from Vaishnavism, the prayers of the saintly king, Prahlada:

My dear Lord, I see that there are many saintly persons indeed, but they are interested only in their own deliverance. Not caring for the big cities and towns, they go to the Himalayas or the forest to meditate with vows of silence [mauna-vrata]. They are not interested in delivering others. As for me, however, I do not wish to be liberated alone, leaving aside all other souls. I know that without enlightenment in God consciousness, without taking shelter of Your lotus feet - one cannot be happy. Therefore I wish to bring them back to shelter at Your lotus feet. (Bhagavata Purana 7.9.44)

Are there any records of similar themes existing within Christianity? Maybe from less orthodox sources?

Yes, I was thinking a little about the idea of the Boddhisattva, too. I am sure there are less orthodox streams of Christian thought along these lines. There are others here in C-R who might expound a little on this, much more so than I....earl? Or Tariki or maybe SG or Snoopy? They might have some interesting links on the subject. (Sorry everything is coming up in italics--can't get rid of them for some reason.)

InPeace,
InLove

 

[Dondi]

My dear Lord, I see that there are many saintly persons indeed, but they are interested only in their own deliverance. Not caring for the big cities and towns, they go to the Himalayas or the forest to meditate with vows of silence [mauna-vrata]. They are not interested in delivering others. As for me, however, I do not wish to be liberated alone, leaving aside all other souls. I know that without enlightenment in God consciousness, without taking shelter of Your lotus feet - one cannot be happy. Therefore I wish to bring them back to shelter at Your lotus feet.

(Bhagavata Purana 7.9.44)

Are there any records of similar themes existing within Christianity? Maybe from less orthodox sources?

That ought to be the theme of every Christian, to show others the liberating truth of God. To spread the love of God and to give hope to those who don't have hope, not only in terms of salvation, but in a life in Christ worthwhile to live in this life. The two basic commandments taught be Jesus is to Love God and love thy neighbor. If salvation is one's only goal, in absence of these commandments, you've miss the whole point of Christianity. The parable of the Sheep and the Goats in Matthew 25 teaches us such, the pivotal verse being:

"And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me." - Matthew 25:40

 

[InLove]

Hi Dondi--

Oh, I agree that the Christian should live in this life in such a compassionate way, and that this is done with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. I was just contemplating how there are things we just don't know for certain about the life that goes on after what we know of this one. Like you have said, it surely must be more than we can possibly comprehend at the moment, which is great, because I certainly hope it isn't confined to my limited imagination!

InPeace,
InLove

 

[wil]

...I suppose it's possible that God could me the choice to come back. Or possibly sent me back regardless of my wishes. I leave that for Him to judge. But given the choice, would I? I really couldn't say.....Can you not see this as a possibility? What if there was no need to return here?

Namaste Dondi,

So within the parameters of your belief you can see how reincarnation may exist. Not saying you believe it, but acknowledge the potential?

And oh yes, I see the possibility of some point in time not needing more lessons...but...

I also feel like I've just started preschool!

 

[Dondi]

Namaste Dondi,

So within the parameters of your belief you can see how reincarnation may exist. Not saying you believe it, but acknowledge the potential?

And oh yes, I see the possibility of some point in time not needing more lessons...but...

I also feel like I've just started preschool!

I suppose it's possible that God in certain cases could send people who didn't have a chance at a normal life to have a second chance, like I mention before in the cases of infant or child death or severe retardation. I would stop short in saying that this would be the modus operandi of spiritual progression for those who experience a relatively normal lifespan, however. I still fail to see what benefit reincarnation would do if we don't remember our former lives if we don't remember the life lessons we would have learned fom them. I get what some are saying in regards to one's disposition (or heart, or spiritual essence, what have you), being transferred. But without knowledge of those life lessons, how do we avoid repeating the same mistakes? Indeed, how can we not make the same mistakes if our disposition is bent toward them. You see what I mean? If someone was an alcoholic or a sex addict, would not those traits carry over into the next life?