Except ye be converted...

So far we have had some excellent dialog on this topic. But what I'm really looking for are personal experiences. Except for Muslimwoman (and I do thank her for sharing with us briefly), all we have had so far is rhetoric. I'm hoping that people will share the meat of their experiences.

Mind you, please, that I hope the spirit of this thread will be non-judgmental, that as people give their accounts it won't be pounced upon or denounced or decredited off hand, just because it doesn't fit your scheme.

I will post mine shortly.
 
yes, but the heart doesn't think, that which we attribute to the heart simply comes from the mind... I can see what u all mean, of course, but I still think its silly to want to be innocent and easily played...
 
I do agree that in our return to innocence, we are not being asked to embrace naiveté. This was emphasized in the Biblical passage Dondi referenced, Matthew 10:16. And frankly, if you believe your Bible, then this is all the proof you should need that the Serpent is something to be admired, even emulated.

So we are clearly not meant to lose our Wisdom, if we might happened to have gained any at this point (keeping in mind that knowledge, certainly cunning, are not synonyms for Wisdom!) ... :p

However, the instruction was to be "harmless, as doves," in addition, not cynical, nor excessively critical. And this is where the childlike bit enters in. I'm not quite sure what part of this isn't clear, unless perhaps there are those among us who just don't like children. :eek:

I myself, will not likely ever have children, yet if I find myself having difficulty experiencing Christ, or remembering that yes, Christ dwells within the human heart, I know a place I can immediately go ... for a good reminder.

A short walk in the park, observing the youngest of the children on the playground, is sufficient reminder that yes, except we become as children ... :)

And I did not mean for my post to be pure editorial, so I would add, at this point, that in fact, my conversion experience actually began just after I was three years old ... though I would not be able to fully understand, or interpret the experience until I was perhaps 19 or 20.

I would like to say more, in a future post, but I must first gather my thoughts, and do my best to present them in terms of simplicity, rather than in my usual, excessive detail.

Children, I think, have A LOT to teach us ...

... and Francis, the wisest sage I know has said, "We must learn to think with our heart," as did the Greek church father, Nicephorus. ;)

Namaskar,

~Andrew
 
I would like to say more, in a future post, but I must first gather my thoughts, and do my best to present them in terms of simplicity, rather than in my usual, excessive detail.

That's so for us children to understand, huh? :p
 
So far we have had some excellent dialog on this topic. But what I'm really looking for are personal experiences.

I'd share but I don't think I ever had a conversion as such; even though I come from an ostensibly Christian background but would not use that monicker (Christian) for myself now.

When I first found out some stuff about Buddhism, I essentially thought "well that's how I view things", so "it" did not convert me, I was already "there", wherever that was! (oh, it's here!:D)

s.
 
Good thread Dondi. :)

I think the reference that we must become like little children is on one hand a reference to innocence and simple trust. I think also it is related to Jesus' statement that the last will be first, and the first last. In that day children were the bottom rung (along with women, the lepers, etc.). They are powerless. If you have power now, you will be among the last, and the meek, the powerless, will be first.
 
"And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." - Matthew 18:3

Dondi said:
I'm interested in hearing from people who have had a "conversion experience" in whatever religious paradigm you've adopted. How it has impacted you life or the lives of those around you. What kind of changes were made as a result. It doesn't have to be earthshattering, it could be a gradual change of heart toward noblier purposes or a higher sense of life. Differences between how you conducted your life before, and how you conduct it now.

Would you be willing to share such a conversion?


I’m willing, Dondi. Here’s hoping that I am able to convey what I really mean.

I don’t really like the term “conversion”. Most Biblical translations use it though, so there must be some reasoning for it. But some translations employ the word “change”, including the NIV, and this seems to fit more closely with my own experience. I guess there isn’t really that much difference, but to me, “conversion” suggests something more formal or perhaps even forced by exterior means, while “change” feels more like something that comes more from within, by choice. Or maybe “conversion” sounds too much like “replacement”, while “change” seems too embrace “growth”. I don’t know—I’m sure that it is probably not that significant of a difference, just a quirk of mine or something. Also, I don’t really subscribe to the idea that one way or path is necessarily “higher”. Just different. Anyway, you said you weren’t looking for rhetoric, but a personal account, so I’ll move on.

There are different sorts of experiences that people have. Mine is not one of those kind that you hear much about, say for example, from the lay pulpit at a rousing revival, because it does not involve a history of denial and struggling with various demons before seeing the light, so to speak. But while my story may not be very glamorous, it still holds much meaning for me. Since I have come to believe we are all connected, then perhaps by telling about how this happened in my life, it will have meaning for someone else, as well.

My childhood revolved around a very gentle and loving family, just me and my young parents. I can remember them when they were teenagers, so I guess I would say that we kind of grew up together, in a way. I was raised attending a farily small Southern Baptist church where my mother taught some children’s classes, but I wouldn’t say that we were part of the “inner circle” there. I think all three of us often felt a little like outsiders in spite of whatever activities we took part in.. Maybe this was because most of the people at the church had grown up in the area, which was quite urban compared to the backwoods of Arkansas from which my parents had migrated (my dad was baptized in the White River!). Anyway, for whatever reasons, we just didn’t seem to quite fit in with the “amen” crowd.. But without being stuffy about things, my parents loved Jesus and shared His message with me.

There was always lots of music around our house. People with guitars and copies of magazines with lyrics to the latest releases and there were hymns and old folk songs, too. I was always interested in the music, so it is no wonder that one Sunday morning when I was about nine years old, it was the music that spoke to me. Or perhaps it was just that after 40 minutes or so of “hellfire and damnation” talk together with much shouting and fist banging, the music and lyrics of“Softly and Tenderly, Jesus is Calling” and “Just As I Am” helped to relieve the fear and guilt I must have been feeling, and so my heart responded. I do remember it very well to this day. I didn’t know it at the time, but my parents were in a quandry when I wanted to go forward—Mom didn’t know if they should let me, and Dad told her to let me go because it was between me and the Lord. I always think of Matthew 19:14 and corresponding verses about letting the children come to Jesus when I think of my parent’s whispered conversation that day. I believe we too often sell children short when we wrap them all in one blanket and insist that they can’t possibly understand these things at a young age. I have lived half a century this coming February, and not only do I have lots of experience with kids, but I can also look back on that moment and tell you that I knew exactly what I was accepting. It was the hope that there is indeed Love and Mercy to be embraced, no matter how frightening things seem or how small and powerless and inadequate we may feel.

So anyway, you might think that would be all of the story. And even though you may even wish it was, because it is getting to be a long post here, there’s more. Life, of course went on and I grew up. Along the way, I was a “Jesus Freak”, which was not the same thing back then as it is now. It was more like being a flower child with tracts, or at least that is how I remember it. At one point, I rededicated my life to missionary work. I never made it to Africa or wherever I thought it was that missionaries went, but I did, over the years, work in the music and children’s ministries of both a Methodist church and then a Missionary Baptist (not Southern) congregation.

But I still never felt quite like I “fit”. Over time, I began to understand why. I started hearing more and more Christians declare that Jews and Muslims and Hindus and Buddhists were going to not only be destroyed by God, but they were destined for an eternity of torture in the literal fire of Hell. This is not the Love that called out to the child in me. This was NOT what I accepted. Nevertheless, I spent a few years trying to go along the best I knew how with the majority of those around me, I guess because I just couldn’t fathom that this is what they really believed. I thought maybe I was missing something in what they were saying—that they didn’t really mean it that way. I consoled myself with the idea that they just meant that Christianity is the only religion which offers a Savior. But alas, I finally had to face the fact that many of them really believed in a God that seemed more like a devil than a loving Creator.

What to do, then? Well, I knew that Christ had always been there in my heart. So I decided to ask Him. About a year ago, I was literally on what might very well have been my deathbed—lots of people thought so, including some doctors. I asked God to please not let me leave this life without reconciling this confusion.. I needed to know. And I saw a hand reach out to me, and I heard a voice that said, “Well, then come on, my child—you are in for a wonderful adventure!” So here I am telling you that the adventure has indeed been wonderful, and that even though I have been speaking “Christian” throughout this post, I can now say with confidence that religion can sometimes get in the way of Truth. I am not saying that all things regarding religion are bad. What I am saying is that by examining my religion with the curiosity of a child, and trusting that there is Love and Mercy to be embraced, I find that once again Truth shines through. And it shines through in other religions, as well. I can even find it in some philosophies that do not even describe Truth in terms of “God”. But Truth is Truth. If we earnestly seek it, it will be revealed.

One of the hardest things to do is to take, for example, the Bible, and read it without all the preconceptions we may be used to, whether that is a certain theology or eschatology or soteriology or some other “-ology”. And it is nearly impossible if one is not willing to listen to others whose viewpoints have always been considered “taboo” according to the authority figures in one’s life. I had to keep reminding myself that if there was any Truth to be found in that Spirit of Love to which I responded, then asking questions and trusting the answers I received could not hurt me, even if those answers were somehow different than what I had most often heard, even from “the experts”. One thing with which I really struggled was when I discovered via some Jewish acquaintances that there actually may be some mistranslations when trying to translate some things from Hebrew into other languages! But you know what? I discovered that even something like this does not break that golden thread that runs through many Traditions. It just serves to help me find the universal message entwined there.

So, someone recently asked me if I am a “Universalist”. My answer? I don’t know. I don’t know what that might be, as I have not studied up on it. And I imagine I will do that if time permits. I can only say that I do know there are certain philosophies and religions out there which I cannot embrace. Those would be the ones that are based on exclusivity or ones that are born of vengefulness. So, there will be some that I can look at and find that thread of Love and Wisdom and Truth, but there will be various schools of belief within those same philosophies and religions that I cannot accept. Christianity is one of these. There are Christian ideals I will never abandon nor deny. But I no longer embrace certain viewpoints within Christianity that I do not believe are characteristic of what Christ really taught.

Well, there you have my story. Thanks for giving me the opportunity to tell it. My apologies for being so longwinded.

InPeace,
InLove
 
InLove...Thank you for educating us, once again, as to the nature of "truth", how it comes to reside within an individual's heart, and by example of how best to share "truth" with other individuals.

Say hello to Jack, and keep on singin'.

flow....:)
 
Well, there you have my story. Thanks for giving me the opportunity to tell it.
InPeace,
InLove

Tears in my eyes Deb...that's beautiful.

I am so thankful that you shared your story. (No apologies for length needed!)

Warm embraces,
Laurie
 
I think Francis has a point when we look at conversions (or change) in a religious context.
Your perspective and your values run the risk of being replaced by dictated ones, it is when you are most vulnerable to be influenced.
In normal conversions you have little chance or help to step back and decide what's right for you.
So a childlike attitude may help you to absorb both the good and the bad.

Sorry but I personally think conversion is quite the opposite of this. We grow up with dictated perspectives and values, which we are not encouraged to challenge or question. It is when we begin to question our faith that we do in fact step back and decide what is right for us, rather than accepting what has been dictated to us up to that point in our life.

I agree it is when we are vulnerable but if we stay strong to our love and desire to find our true relationship with G-d then we find our individual path not just one we grow up with.
 
InLove, thanks for sharing your experience. A very insightful post.

As far as "born again" I'm not totally sure what the writer of John means, to me it is to follow (try) the teachings of Christ and not so much the accepted behavior of the "world".

thanks
Joe
 
Sorry but I personally think conversion is quite the opposite of this. We grow up with dictated perspectives and values, which we are not encouraged to challenge or question. It is when we begin to question our faith that we do in fact step back and decide what is right for us, rather than accepting what has been dictated to us up to that point in our life.

I agree it is when we are vulnerable but if we stay strong to our love and desire to find our true relationship with G-d then we find our individual path not just one we grow up with.

I think the difference is that I was not raised on any faith, nor was I encouraged or discouraged to seek a spiritual path. For good or bad conversion just hit me. Perhaps it's also different when you decide to convert with premeditation.
 
Thanks for the comments, everyone. And thanks, Dondi, for the opportunity to share. I think there is more I could probably say, but it would turn into a book. But it is nice to know that one can write from the heart and it is okay here.

By the way, welcome to C-R, Joedjr.:)

InPeace,
InLove
 
I believe this says it best:

"Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves." - Matthew 10:16
yes indeed,
that you may come to be blameless and innocent, children of God without a blemish in among a crooked and twisted generation, among whom you are shining as illuminators in the world phillipians 2;15
(Romans 16:19) For your obedience has come to the notice of all. I therefore rejoice over you . But I want you to be wise as to what is good, but innocent as to what is evil.
 
Yes, my brother....

Be as a child, without prejudice, without judgment...

You ever watched kids on a playground, they fight, "I hate you", "I'll never be your friend again"....five minutes later they are having a ball....it never happened.

Forgiveness, non judgment, those are couple things required to be as children.


A couple things most us adults refuse to give up.

There was a folk song I liked in the 80's. I've forgotten almost all the words, but it contained a verse calling on us to remember the fairness of children's games. Young children expect fairness. They expect the rules to be fair. They expect their friends to play by the rules. They also expect that when the rules are fair, they'll win a fair number of times.

It is the failure of these expectations that gradually corrupts children into adults. Jesus's call for conversion might well be interpreted as directing us toward simple, unqualified fairness. After all, isn't that what it means to love thy neighbor as thyself?
 
I would say for myself that I've had basically three conversions, but I need to preface this with some background.

Background

I grew up in a moderately Christian home, my parents taking me to chruch every Sunday morning and evening, and Wednesday night. And mostly what I learned were bible stories like Noah, David and Goliath, Samson and Deliliah, and the like, and the parables and stories of Jesus. Nothing deeply theological, really, except the idea of "Jesus Loves me, this I know".

1st conversion

By the time I turn teen, I'd start hanging out on the fringes of the youth group at church, but not as one of the core members of the clique. Nevertheless, I made like friends who were also on the edge. Usually, we hung out in the back pews during the sermon, passing notes and making jokes, not paying much attention to the pulpit message.

One Sunday evening, sometime in the mid-summer, I found myself alone. For some reason, none of my friends showed up at church that night. Inexplicably, I found myself sitting toward on of the front pews, second row to be exact, something I never thought I would do. And the Pastor preached a rather stern message on Heaven and Hell. And I really got to thinking about my future destiny. I was quite concerned that should I die without Christ, I would end up in a sinner's hell. So at the invitation, I popped up and went forward at the altar call, and told the Pastor I wanted to be a Christian. He had me go into a small room with one ofthe deacons and he led me through the "Sinner's Prayer".

Now admittedly, I came to Christ out of fear. It wasn't a matter of going to Heaven as it was keeping out of Hell. But with the "eternal security" of heaven, I no longer was afraid of going to Hell. I continued to go to church, but I kinda had my salvation in my back pocket so to speak. So I didn't really learn to grow as a Christian. I didn't develop a strong foundation in my faith (although I had a deep fascination with endtimes events sparked by Hal Lindsey's book, The Late Great Planet Earth).

Eventually, in making friends on the edge of the youth group, I fell into friendship with some partiers and found myself in the typical high school rituals of getting blasted on weekends and going to parties, drinking and smoking dope. In my rebellion, I slowly lost interest in church. By the time I joined the Navy, I all but stopped going altogether (though I enjoyed going to a Christian camp in the summers, which had a positive effect on my later in life).

More later....
 
2nd conversion

After having all but abandoning church and for that matter God, I ran my own game. I cannot say that I didn't have fun or good times. I got drunk off my a** and kicked around for several years. Being in the Navy meant I was getting a steady income and could fuel my fun as I deemed it. Lots of memorable moments, some good, some bad, and some I didn't remember the next day. And since I felt I was doing service to my country to boot, I felt I deserved to let off a bit steam now and then. I don't know whether God was watching after me or not, but there were a few incidents that could have left me injured, crippled, dead, or in serious trouble with the law.

All the while, though, I had a sense of unsatisfaction. The friends I had weren't there for me all the time, and I got burned an number of times. Why can't people be trusted? Slowly, I began to get tired of it all. I got depressed, and while I didn't turn into an alcoholic, I did compensate when things got really bad. Depression has a tendency to snowball.

To make this short, I turned my thoughts back to God (if I really turned to Him in the first place). At this point, I wasn't even sure there was a God and if so, what He would have of me. I strayed so far off the straight path, it felt like God was a million mile away. Wasn't even sure it would be worth it to pray.

And yet one might, and here's where I became like a little child, I took the chance that God just might be there. I began praying, pouring my heart out and confessing everything I felt was wrong, asking forgiveness, not even knowing if I was really talking to God or to the air. But in the moment, there was a turning from feelings of anger and despair to an overwhelming sense of love and peace I've never knew before. It was such a powerful exprience that I laid there crying for I don't know how long. But to me it felt as if God gave me a huge hug and sent me on my way.

Only now I didn't want my way, I wanted His way. And I immersed myself into scriptures and prayer and armed with this sense of love, I set out to change my lifestyle. I had a desire to serve the Lord and spread the message of His love, which I believe is available to all who seek it. I found a church and got involved with some of the ministries. And I found a more profound sense of satisfaction in what I was doing, a purposefulness that I felt lacking. I wasn't perfect, not by a long shot, and who is? But things started clicking for me. I quit smoking, by God's grace. Stopped partying, but made better friends (not saying everyone in church are angels, but there was a greater sense of trust with who I made friends I hung out with).

See, back when I prayed the sinner's prayer at thirteen, it wasn't real to me. I just did it cause I wanted to avoid hell. But this time was different, for it was me wanting something more. I wanted my life to mean something. And when I found myself doing the things of God, I felt happier and more content.

But that wasn't the last conversion...
 
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