The Quran - through my eyes.

[Muslimwoman]

as salaam aleykum wr wb

I am so tired of being told that my faith teaches hatred and violence and has no ethical core. Whenever Islam is discussed people always ask about verses that mention violence, which is fine and understandable but the discussions rarely touch on the majority of verses of peace and ethics, therefore only one side of the Quran is shown. So this thread is my new project, I shall post here verses of peace, verses that demonstrate the ethical core of Islam (Quran verses will be in red). I shall also post comments from Muslims and non Muslims regarding Islam. I shall use Pickthals translation for the Quran.

This is the Quran through my eyes for anyone that is interested and open minded enough to try to see their is another side to the coin.

The Quran has 114 Surahs (chapters) and 6236 Ayahs) (verses). Let us see over time how many speak of peace and ethics, against those of violence.

The extinction of race consciousness as between Muslims is one of the outstanding moral achievements of Islam, and in the contemporary world there is, as it happens, a crying need for the propagation of this Islamic virtue. The forces of racial toleration, which at present seem to be fighting a losing battle in a spiritual struggle of immense importance to mankind, might still regain the upper hand if any strong influence militating against racial consciousness were now to be thrown into the scales. It is conceivable that the spirit of Islam might be the timely reinforcement which would decide this issue in favor of tolerance and peace. (A. J. Toynbee, Civilization an Trial, Oxford university Press, 1948, pp. 205-6)

Toynbee was an economic historian not a Muslim.

Before I begin I would like to mention one verse, as it is one of my favourites:

O mankind! Be careful of your duty to your Lord Who created you from a single soul and from it created its mate and from them twain hath spread abroad a multitude of men and women. Be careful of your duty toward Allah in Whom ye claim (your rights) of one another, and toward the wombs (that bare you). Lo! Allah hath been a watcher over you. (4:1)

Clearly this means to be mindful of your mother. When asked who we should love, after Allah, the Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) replied your mother. Asked again, after your mother then who, again he said your mother. Asked a third time he again responded your mother. The forth time of asking he replied your father. This is the reverence in Islam given to mothers. It goes against the misconception of Islam that men are superior and women are lesser beings.

Salaam

 

[Muslimwoman]

So we are looking for any indication of peace or ethics in the Quran. We shall therefore not examine the verses that deal with prayer, the afterlife, history (eg the stories of the Prophets Adam (pbuh), Moses (pbuh), etc). I also think it will take me from my purpose if I try to put historical context behind the revelation of verses. However feel free to ask any questions.

As the first chapter is very short (just 7 one line verses) I thought I would share the whole thing as it has particular significance for Muslims. We say this Surah during our 5 daily prayers:

Surah 1 is called Al-Fatiha (meaning The Opening)

In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.
Praise be to Allah, Lord of the Worlds,
The Beneficent, the Merciful.
Master of the Day of Judgment,
Thee (alone) we worship; Thee (alone) we ask for help.
Show us the straight path,
The path of those whom Thou hast favoured; Not the (path) of those who earn Thine anger nor of those who go astray. (1:1-7)

Surah 2 has 286 verses and is called Al Baqara (The Cow). This chapter deals largely with creation, Satan, Moses & the Children of Israel, hypocrites (those that claim to believe but do not), etc but there a couple of verses we should look at even though they don't quite fit my topic:

Lo! Those who believe (in that which is revealed unto thee, Muhammad), and those who are Jews, and Christians, and Sabaeans - whoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right - surely their reward is with their Lord, and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve. (2:62)

I am always quoting this verse. The majority view is that this means Jews, Christians and Sabeans prior to the revelation of Islam but I still fail to see anything in that verse - the Word of Allah - that suggests that. Please note it says specifically 'that revealed unto thee Mohammad AND '. Would it have been so difficult to add the words 'that came before' if that had been Allah's intention?! HOWEVER, we shall see in later chapters that Muslims and Jews and Christians can be friends - erm how can you be friends with someone that belongs to a religion Allah does not accept????

Therefore woe be unto those who write the Scripture with their hands and then say, "This is from Allah," that they may purchase a small gain therewith. Woe unto them for that their hands have written, and woe unto them for that they earn thereby. (2:79)

A little something for anyone that discusses Islam with a Muslim. Please remember this verse. If you are told something from the hadiths (acts and sayings of the Prophet Mohammad (pbuh)) is Islam check it against the Quran. The hadiths cannot abrogate the Quran, the Quran always must take precidence - because the Quran says so. (a particularly interesting issue when discussing stoning which is never mentioned in the Quran). So this verse warns against fibbing about the Word of Allah.

And they say: None entereth paradise unless he be a Jew or a Christian. These are their own desires. Say: Bring your proof (of what ye state) if ye are truthful. (2:11)

Nay, but whosoever surrendereth his purpose to Allah while doing good, his reward is with his Lord; and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve. (2:12)

And the Jews say the Christians follow nothing (true), and the Christians say the Jews follow nothing (true); yet both are readers of the Scripture. Even thus speak those who know not. Allah will judge between them on the Day of Resurrection concerning that wherein they differ. (2:13)


I think this speaks for itself in my opinion.

And each one hath a goal toward which he turneth; so vie with one another in good works. Wheresoever ye may be, Allah will bring you all together. Lo! Allah is Able to do all things (2:148)

And again (this is still in the part of the chapter that is talking about the differences in religions)

It is not righteousness that ye turn your faces to the East and the West; but righteous is he who believeth in Allah and the Last Day and the angels and the Scripture and the prophets; and giveth wealth, for love of Him, to kinsfolk and to orphans and the needy and the wayfarer and to those who ask, and to set slaves free; and observeth proper worship and payeth the poor-due. And those who keep their treaty when they make one, and the patient in tribulation and adversity and time of stress. Such are they who are sincere. Such are the Allah-fearing. (2:177)

I would suggest the piece in bold is ethical in anyones language.

And eat not up your property among yourselves in vanity, nor seek by it to gain the hearing of the judges that ye may knowingly devour a portion of the property of others wrongfully. (2:188)

Bribery is not permitted, and stealing others property through bribing judges is not allowed. Quite ethical I feel.

Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors. (2:190)

No if's or but's there, a simple ethical and peaceful instruction.

They ask thee, (O Muhammad), what they shall spend. Say: that which ye spend for good (must go) to parents and near kindred and orphans and the needy and the wayfarer. And whatsoever good ye do, lo! Allah is Aware of it. (2:215)

Gosh giving charity to the orphans and needy, very unethical {tongue firmly in cheek}

And make not Allah, by your oaths, a hindrance to your being righteous and observing your duty unto Him and making peace among mankind. Allah is Hearer, Knower. (2:224)

Self explanatory.

Women who are divorced shall wait, keeping themselves apart, three (monthly) courses. And it is not lawful for them that they should conceal that which Allah hath created in their wombs if they are believers in Allah and the Last Day. And their husbands would do better to take them back in that case if they desire a reconciliation. And they (women) have rights similar to those (of men) over them in kindness, and men are a degree above them. Allah is Mighty, Wise. (2:228)

Mucgh has been written by scholars about this 'degree' above them issue. It does not mean better than, it means responsibility for - men are the protectors and providers for women and children, so men are the head of the family. To say women have rights similar to men 1400 years ago astounds me, particularly when you consider how recently women were offered rights in other parts of the world.

When ye have divorced women, and they have reached their term, then retain them in kindness or release them in kindness. Retain them not to their hurt so that ye transgress (the limits). He who doeth that hath wronged his soul. Make not the revelations of Allah a laughing-stock (by your behaviour), but remember Allah's grace upon you and that which He hath revealed unto you of the Scripture and of wisdom, whereby He doth exhort you. Observe your duty to Allah and know that Allah is Aware of all things. (2:231)

Clearly this talks about divorcing in kindness and not forcing an unhappy wife to remain with you in order to hurt her. Again remember this was 1400 years ago. (the 'term' is the period of waiting to ensure the woman is not pregnant).

There is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is henceforth distinct from error. And he who rejecteth false deities and believeth in Allah hath grasped a firm handhold which will never break. Allah is Hearer, Knower. (2:256)

Forced conversions - me thinks not.

A kind word with forgiveness is better than almsgiving followed by injury. Allah is Absolute, Clement. (2:263)

O ye who believe! Spend of the good things which ye have earned, and of that which We bring forth from the earth for you, and seek not the bad (with intent) to spend thereof (in charity) when ye would not take it for yourselves save with disdain; and know that Allah is Absolute, Owner of Praise. (2:267)

When you give in charity don't give the junk you don't want.

If ye publish your almsgiving, it is well, but if ye hide it and give it to the poor, it will be better for you, and will atone for some of your ill-deeds. Allah is Informed of what ye do. (2:271)

Better not to be boastful or arrogant.

And if the debtor is in straitened circumstances, then (let there be) postponement to (the time of) ease; and that ye remit the debt as almsgiving would be better for you if ye did but know. (2:280)

So if someone owes you money and they are on hard times, give them time to pay but better if you do not collect the debt and give it as charity.


That is Surah 2, just 112 Surah's left to go (they get shorter as we go along).

So we have no compulsion in religion, charity, care, peace with mankind, rights for women and we have hardly started.

(Sorry about the spelling I have been awake all night trying to fix my laptop).

Salaam

 

[Snoopy]

OOOhhh spoon feeding - my favourite.

I may lurk here more than post cos I personally don't want to drag this thread of yours off track but many thanks for this.

s.


(red's a bit in-yer-face isn't it; what about a mellow blue?)

 

[seattlegal]

Thank you for this thread, MW.

 

[Dondi]

Great thread, MW!

O mankind! Be careful of your duty to your Lord Who created you from a single soul and from it created its mate and from them twain hath spread abroad a multitude of men and women. Be careful of your duty toward Allah in Whom ye claim (your rights) of one another, and toward the wombs (that bare you). Lo! Allah hath been a watcher over you. (4:1)

Wow! this is a profound verse. Am I to take this to mean that all of mankind came from one Substance, one Soul? If so, we're closer to each other than we thought.

Lo! Those who believe (in that which is revealed unto thee, Muhammad), and those who are Jews, and Christians, and Sabaeans - whoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right - surely their reward is with their Lord, and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve. (2:62)

I've come to the conclusion that it is not as important in what you believe, or what you religious orientation is, but rather what you do with what you believe. In the final analysis, I believe God will judge us by how we have treated others. Something that is emphasized in Christianity as well (Matthew 25:31-40):

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me." - Matthew 25:40

But how similiarily do we find the same ethic in the Quran:

It is not righteousness that ye turn your faces to the East and the West; but righteous is he who believeth in Allah and the Last Day and the angels and the Scripture and the prophets; and giveth wealth, for love of Him, to kinsfolk and to orphans and the needy and the wayfarer and to those who ask, and to set slaves free; and observeth proper worship and payeth the poor-due. And those who keep their treaty when they make one, and the patient in tribulation and adversity and time of stress. Such are they who are sincere. Such are the Allah-fearing. (2:177)

And, of course, that also means living peaceably with others.

I think we need to concentrate of a similarities more than our differences, no?

 

[Francis king]

well.. as you know, I've started reading the Quran- spiritually it's not "singing" to me, if that makes sense, I'm not getting any "strange bodily sensations" while I read it like I do with some other religious books, so I don't maybe feel like I connect with the Quran in maybe the same way I would some other texts, but that might just be my programming...

regardless...

I so far have read the first few chapters, and intellectually I'm digging it. It's frustrating to have to keep referring back to the Judaic names so I can put things into fresh contexts, but I'll get there in the end. It will probably take me a year to finish it...

My favourite part so far concerns a beggar...

basically, Mohammed (?) says- don't worry about the beggar and what he's doing. He's doing what he needs to do to get by- God knows what's going on, God knows he's doing what he needs to do to get by, (kind of) and I thought- ha! Nice one Mohammed.

(I would have quoted the passage properly, but I can't find the book)

I had previously been led to believe that the Quran was very like the Old Testament, full of fire and brimstone, but there's a few wise words I've found so far, so I'll keep looking.

adios

 

[wil]

You know there is a beauty, simplicity, and unarguable truth in the title of this thread....

through my eyes....can anyone argue or deny anything she posts??

and how elegant would it be if we only realized that it is actually the postscript to each and all of our posts....through our eyes...

Can we really complain about anyones beliefs as they are telling us what they see through their eyes...now if they insist that we see it as they...or we insist that others see it as we...therin lies the difficulty...

MW as I'm so looking forward to more of this thread...

 

[InLove]

Hi Sally--I have momentarily forgotten how to say it in Arabic, but "a thousand wishes of peace to you".

What an undertaking! And honest and courageous, I might add. How many folks are willing to back up their words with action? You are doing what you have always said you wished would be done. Sitting down with a clean sheet and writing down what the verses mean to you.

The challenge to Islam (as well as to Abrahamic faiths in general) has been on the lips of many--if we don't agree with how some things are being interpreted, then speak up. I see you doing this, and I see you working toward whatever peace may be found. It is rare to find such a commitment as yours. I know you have been trying. Maybe this will help.

salaam, Muslimwoman...write on.

InPeace,
InLove

 

[flowperson]

Salaam Sally...I remember reading the Quran a number of years ago when I became convinced that, as a caring person in an uncaring world, it was my responsibility to try and understand the foundations of truth that all of these millions of Islamic believers held fast to, so much so that they are obliged to pray five times a day. At the time I was doing well if I did it once a month.

While reading it I remember saying to myself, how beautiful, how lyrical, and it was dictated to an ordinary man in a cave who wrote nothing down until he came back home. Then, after having some experiences similar to that myself, I became convinced that many meaningful writings have had such an origin, and who is anybody to question the validity of anything in history recorded in such ways ?

This was also about the same time that Rushdie was condemned for writing a piece of fiction which claimed profanation of Muhammed's (pbuh) original writings by those surrounding him when he got back home from dictation sessions and helped him to put the words into readable forms.

The Quran is no different from the OT, the NT, or any other number of sacred writing at the origin points of great religions. And, as everyone will notice there is considerable overlap in the content and meaning of the myths and stories contained therein. If anything all of these writings were intended to bring people to unified understandings regarding the nature of the divine; but, as in anything else, those who have had such intents from the beginnings have been pushed aside by those who would have the words separate fellow human beings and cause conflict among them.

Thanks for your efforts, and though I might not make many specific comments, I'll be reading and coming to understand my friend across the seas ever so much better.

flow....

 

[bob x]

Thank you. I will refrain from spoiling this thread by telling you what I don't like-- unless you want to hear it, which I doubt.

 

[wil]

Thank you. I will refrain from spoiling this thread by telling you what I don't like-- unless you want to hear it, which I doubt.

Namaste Bob,

Speaking out of turn as I usually do, I'm guessing Sally would welcome your questions on direct Quran quotes. If you were reading the Quran and had questions on your understanding of the chapter you were reading...I'm sure she'd provide you with her understanding.

I'm sure you wouldn't just be offering up some hearsay about bombers getting 72 virgins and the like, I'm sure you would have the capacity to as you said not spoil the thread by telling us what you don't like, but rather adding to the thread by entertaining serious discussion on the part of the Quran you are currently studying...

 

[bob x]

I'm guessing Sally would welcome your questions on direct Quran quotes

I would prefer not to guess.

 

[Muslimwoman]

Wow I didn't know if anyone would even look at this thread, I am so moved that so many of my friends have chosen to read my views of the Quran. Thank you so much. I am no religious scholar, it is just how I read and interpret the beauty of my faith and the Words of Allah. May He forgive me if I misrepresent Him and know I mean no harm.

(red's a bit in-yer-face isn't it; what about a mellow blue?)

How about a mellow green, as I tend to use blue when I quote peoples comments?

Wow! this is a profound verse. Am I to take this to mean that all of mankind came from one Substance, one Soul? If so, we're closer to each other than we thought.

Correct Dondi, our souls are all related no matter what our skin colour or religion or language. Allah created one soul, the Prophet Adam (pbuh) and from him we all came. We are all one family.

I've come to the conclusion that it is not as important in what you believe, or what you religious orientation is, but rather what you do with what you believe. In the final analysis, I believe God will judge us by how we have treated others. Something that is emphasized in Christianity as well (Matthew 25:31-40):

I am very much with you there Dondi. Does it matter if I pray 1000 times a day and memorise the whole Quran in Arabic, if I am cruel to another human being? Personally I think not.

I think we need to concentrate of a similarities more than our differences, no?

Thank you for the Bible verses. Perhaps if you keep reading this thread and see other similarities with the Bible you could post those verses? It may help us to see that G-d's message runs through all of our scriptures and we should work together not against each other.

well.. as you know, I've started reading the Quran- spiritually it's not "singing" to me, if that makes sense, I'm not getting any "strange bodily sensations" while I read it like I do with some other religious books,

To be honest with you Francis (but don't tell anyone ) when I read the Quran in English I can find it quite hard going sometimes, more of an academic read if you know what I mean. However, I have the whole Quran on cd's in Arabic and WOW. You cannot translate the Quran, you can only translate the basic meaning so it does lose something in English. But of course I still love it and see the immense beauty it holds.

ha! Nice one Mohammed.

Way to go Francis and don't worry about quoting passages correctly, I do not believe G-d wants us to be parrots as long as we grasp the meaning that we should not be cruel or look down on beggars. The Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) dealt with many social ills and that should be admired, even by people that do not believe.

Hi Sally--I have momentarily forgotten how to say it in Arabic, but "a thousand wishes of peace to you".

wa alfa salaam habibty

Thank you for your kind words. If I cannot put a bit of effort in for Allah then what can there possibly be worth putting effort into?!

Thank you. I will refrain from spoiling this thread by telling you what I don't like-- unless you want to hear it, which I doubt.

A genuine thank you Bob for your restraint, I feel we have enough threads where you can make your feelings known about my faith. I would like to avoid the 'yea but what about these verses' on this thread. I have gone through those verses with others and am happy to do so with you on another thread. However, if you would like to ask questions about my personal vision of Islam or make comments (without personal insult) on anything I post then of course you are more than welcome to do so.


So on to Surah 3 .......

 

[Muslimwoman]

Surah 3 is called al-e-imran (meaning the family of 'imran, the house of 'imran).

This surah deals with the history of mankind, has an appeal to Christians to follow the true faith of Allah (not to worship any but G-d alone), a lesson for Muslims to learn from our misfortunes and the dangers of disputes.

And they (the disbelievers) schemed, and Allah schemed (against them): and Allah is the best of schemers. (3:54)

I just threw that in because I can't help but smile every time I see it. What a great reminder that no matter what we try we have no chance of beating Allah. Sorry but I can just see the Angel Gabrielle winking at the end of reciting that verse.

Ye are the best community that hath been raised up for mankind. Ye enjoin right conduct and forbid indecency; and ye believe in Allah. And if the People of the Scripture had believed it had been better for them. Some of them are believers; but most of them are evil-livers. (3:110)

I have included this verse for 2 reasons.

1) it states that Muslims enjoin right conduct and forbid indecency (that of course means our faith teaches us that, not necessarily that we do it).

2) the bit in bold is talking about Jews and Christians. I shall not make comment on what anyone else believes but I believe to my very core that Allah knows what each individual believes in their hearts and He makes clear to us here that some Christians and Jews are believers and of course He knows which of the Muslims are true believers (as I doubt that we all are). I have found my talks with Christians on CR about the Trinity fascinating and even as an ex Christian I still don't get it. I believe personally that G-d and G-d alone knows what you believe and if your intentions in that belief are good.

They are not all alike. Of the People of the Scripture there is a staunch community who recite the revelations of Allah in the night season, falling prostrate (before Him).(3:113)

They believe in Allah and the Last Day, and enjoin right conduct and forbid indecency, and vie one with another in good works. These are of the righteous. (3:114)

And whatever good they do, they will not be denied the meed thereof. Allah is Aware of those who ward off (evil). (3:115)

I find these verses so encouraging, yet so saddening. When you read about these verses you find two very different camps, those not interested in interfaith dialogue state they only refer to Jews and Christians that have converted to Islam (as though Allah does not know how to say converts )but those interested in interfaith dialogue read them differently and use these verses to demonstrate that there are good and bad Jews and Christians as well as good and bad Muslims.

Here is my take on them - Surely if Allah wanted to refer to converts He would have said something along the lines of 'the people of the book who have become believers' or 'the believers who were once people of the book'. I cannot believe that Allah will accept a hate filled Muslim over a non-Muslim that spends their life working for the good of mankind and praising G-d.

Wouldn't the world be a better place if we all sat together, looked at the teachings of Allah through all of the Scriptures and then acted on the teachings rather than argue and threatening each other with hell? Only Allah knows what is in our hearts and only He can judge us.

So I had to make a choice, I go with the flow and try to believe Allah will treat non Muslims unfairly or I stick with what my gut tells me. I thought hard about it, what will happen on the Day of Judgement when I am asked about my belief in this matter? If I am asked "why did you not accept that only Muslims will get into heaven?" I can respond 'because it is not my place to judge, I left that for Allah' and I trust Allah will know my true intentions were good. If asked why I believed only Muslims get into heaven I would have to answer 'because people said that is what it meant'. I really fear I would then be told to show where the Quran says that only Muslims get in and as I cannot find that statement in the Quran I think it would be a long hot eternity full of hot pokers and grinning demons. So I shall go with my gut on this one and leave judgement to Allah.

O ye who believe! Devour not usury, doubling and quadrupling (the sum lent). Observe your duty to Allah, that ye may be successful. (3:130)

Muslims are not allowed to deal in interest, if I lend you money to start a business all I can take back is what I have lent you. This issue I will admit has caused some hardship for many Muslims as it is difficult these days to buy a house without a mortgage and try finding a bank that doesn't charge interest on a mortgage. It also means you can't have a bank account. However, a couple of banks in the west have now set up 'Islamic' mortgages, whereby you pay rent over a period of time (basically until the interest portion is payed) and then you start paying the mortgage. It is sort of finding a loophole but I believe Allah understands intention and does not wish hardship for anyone. They are also introducing Islamic bank accounts that do not have overdrafts or credit cards and do not pay interest on savings, they also guarantee that the savings will not be used by the bank to create interest.

Those who spend (of that which Allah hath given them) in ease and in adversity, those who control their wrath and are forgiving toward mankind; Allah loveth the good; (3:134)

I don't see anything about 'forgiving toward believers or Muslims only'.

Salaam

 

[Muslimwoman]

Surah 4 - sorry there are many verses to post in this chapter so I shall try to keep my personal comments to a minimum or you will be reading forever (although it is healthier than sleeping pills).

Surah 4 is called an-nisa (meaning the women). Despite it's name it doesn't just deal with women but more with family issues.

Give unto orphans their wealth. Exchange not the good for the bad (in your management thereof) nor absorb their wealth into your own wealth. Lo! that would be a great sin. (4:2)

Much is said in Islam about orphans and protecting them, I can only assume that during the time of Prophet Mohammad (pbut) that they were badly treated and the assets of their dead parents used up by whoever took in the orphan. The Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) was orphaned at quite an early age and went to live with his grandfather, upon his death he went to live with his uncle.

To those weak of understanding Make not over your property, which Allah hath made a means of support for you, but feed and clothe them therewith, and speak to them words of kindness and justice. (4:5)

I have used Yusufali's translation for this verse as Pickthal refers to the weak of understanding as the 'foolish' and I didn't want there to be any misunderstanding but it basically means the mentally ill or mentally impared. So this doesn't mean keep their assets, it just means don't hand them over to someone not able to manage thier own affairs but treat them kindly and look after them.

Prove orphans till they reach the marriageable age; then, if ye find them of sound judgment, deliver over unto them their fortune; and devour it not by squandering and in haste lest they should grow up Whoso (of the guardians) is rich, let him abstain generously (from taking of the property of orphans); and whoso is poor let him take thereof in reason (for his guardianship). And when ye deliver up their fortune unto orphans, have (the transaction) witnessed in their presence. Allah sufficeth as a Reckoner. (4:6)

I just love the social justice in the Quran. This is saying not to use up an orphans assets wastefully as they grow up or for your own desires. If the guardian has money he should take none of the assets. If the guardian is poor he can take a reasonable portion.

Unto the men (of a family) belongeth a share of that which parents and near kindred leave, and unto the women a share of that which parents and near kindred leave, whether it be little or much - a legal share. (4:7)

Look 1400 years ago women were given their legal share of inheritance, that is over a thousand years before women in my country.

And when kinsfolk and orphans and the needy are present at the division (of the heritage), bestow on them therefrom and speak kindly unto them. (4:8)

Share it around.

You don't need to read this verse but I didn't want to mention my comment without showing the verse.

Allah chargeth you concerning (the provision for) your children: to the male the equivalent of the portion of two females, and if there be women more than two, then theirs is two-thirds of the inheritance, and if there be one (only) then the half. And to each of his parents a sixth of the inheritance, if he have a son; and if he have no son and his parents are his heirs, then to his mother appertaineth the third; and if he have brethren, then to his mother appertaineth the sixth, after any legacy he may have bequeathed, or debt (hath been paid). Your parents and your children: Ye know not which of them is nearer unto you in usefulness. It is an injunction from Allah. Lo! Allah is Knower, Wise. (4:11)

So inheritance is set out, to ensure everyone gets a fair share and you don't get family squabbles about who gets what. Women get half the amount of men for good reason. In Islamic society husbands are not allowed to spend their wives money, it is hers to keep and spend as she likes. So if a man inherits and he has an unmarried sister he is legally responsible for her keep but cannot ask her to spend any of her portion of the inheritance. Of course if the sister marries then her husband will inherit a larger portion from his family and so on. I find this a very fair system for society, as it is generally men that are the main breadwinners in Muslim families. Women are permitted to work but only if they want to, they cannot be made to go out to work.

Again the next verse is just to confirm my comment:

And unto you belongeth a half of that which your wives leave, if they have no child; but if they have a child then unto you the fourth of that which they leave, after any legacy they may have bequeathed, or debt (they may have contracted, hath been paid). And unto them belongeth the fourth of that which ye leave if ye have no child, but if ye have a child then the eighth of that which ye leave, after any legacy ye may have bequeathed, or debt (ye may have contracted, hath been paid). And if a man or a woman have a distant heir (having left neither parent nor child), and he (or she) have a brother or a sister (only on the mother's side) then to each of them twain (the brother and the sister) the sixth, and if they be more than two, then they shall be sharers in the third, after any legacy that may have been bequeathed or debt (contracted) not injuring (the heirs by willing away more than a third of the heritage) hath been paid. A commandment from Allah. Allah is Knower, Indulgent. (4:12)

So here is a turn up for the books. A wife's money is her own but if she dies most of that money goes to her children, not her husband. Basically men are responsible for themselves financially and also for their women folk (wives, widowed mother, unmarried sisters, divorced sisters not remarried plus their children - see why so many Arabic men look haggared and smoke so much ).

O ye who believe! Ye are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should ye treat them with harshness, that ye may Take away part of the dower ye have given them,-except where they have been guilty of open lewdness; on the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If ye take a dislike to them it may be that ye dislike a thing, and Allah brings about through it a great deal of good. (4:19)

I have used Yusufali again as it is an easier read than Pickthal. So women cannot be forced into marriage. This verse also deals with divorce, it says do not be mean to your wife so you can divorce her and take back part of her dowery (if a woman asks for a divorce she should pay her dowery or a part of it back, so some men used to treat their wives badly to force the woman to seek divorce).

And if ye wish to exchange one wife for another and ye have given unto one of them a sum of money (however great), take nothing from it. Would ye take it by the way of calumny and open wrong? (4:20)

Self explanatory, if you divorce a good wife because you want to marry the newer model you cannot take any of her dowry back as there is no fault on her.

There are then verses that say who you can and cannot marry which deals with incest and the like.

And whoso is not able to afford to marry free, believing women, let them marry from the believing maids whom your right hands possess. Allah knoweth best (concerning) your faith. Ye (proceed) one from another; so wed them by permission of their folk, and give unto them their portions in kindness, they being honest, not debauched nor of loose conduct. And if when they are honourably married they commit lewdness they shall incur the half of the punishment (prescribed) for free women (in that case). This is for him among you who feareth to commit sin. But to have patience would be better for you. Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. (4:25)

I don't want to get into the issue of owning slaves as I have dealt with that in great detail on another thread but I put this verse in to show that a woman that has been a slave and is now married to a Muslim, gets half the punishment of a free Muslim woman (one that has never been a slave) if she commits lewdness. Please also note the bit in bold, in most places of the Quran where a punishment is stated the verse invariably states that it is better to have patience (ie not give the punishment).

And covet not the thing in which Allah hath made some of you excel others. Unto men a fortune from that which they have earned, and unto women a fortune from that which they have earned. (Envy not one another) but ask Allah of His bounty. Lo! Allah is ever Knower of all things. (4:32)

Basically don't be jealousy of each other, we get what we earn.

And if ye fear a breach between them twain (the man and wife), appoint an arbiter from his folk and an arbiter from her folk. If they desire amendment Allah will make them of one mind. Lo! Allah is ever Knower, Aware. (4:35)

Look, marriage guidance councelling 1400 years ago I have to say Muslims take this very seriously indeed as Allah does not like divorce. At the beginning of last year I was really struggling with the difference in culture between my hubby and I, so I did the 'I want a divorce, I am going home to mother' bit. Within 1 hour the apartment was full of people, parents, sister, uncles, the Imam and his wife (who was appointed to speak on my behalf) and loads of people I didin't know and they wanted to know what each of them could do to make my life in their culture easier. By the time they left I was madly in love with my hubby again.

And serve Allah. Ascribe no thing as partner unto Him. (Show) kindness unto parents, and unto near kindred, and orphans, and the needy, and unto the neighbour who is of kin (unto you) and the neighbour who is not of kin, and the fellow-traveller and the wayfarer and (the slaves) whom your right hands possess. Lo! Allah loveth not such as are proud and boastful, (4:36)

Basically be kind to everyone including your slaves and total strangers.

Lo! Allah commandeth you that ye restore deposits to their owners, and, if ye judge between mankind, that ye judge justly. Lo! comely is this which Allah admonisheth you. Lo! Allah is ever Hearer, Seer (4:58)

Restore trusts to their rightful owners and if you are called to judge who is the rightful owner do it justly.

How should ye not fight for the cause of Allah and of the feeble among men and of the women and the children who are crying: Our Lord! Bring us forth from out this town of which the people are oppressors! Oh, give us from thy presence some protecting friend! Oh, give us from Thy presence some defender! (4:75)

Fight for the protection of the oppressed and weak, yes that means physically fight if necessary.

Whoso interveneth in a good cause will have the reward thereof, and whoso interveneth in an evil cause will bear the consequence thereof. Allah overseeth all things. (4:85)

As we reap so shall we sow (that is from the Bible isn't it?).

When ye are greeted with a greeting, greet ye with a better than it or return it. Lo! Allah taketh count of all things. (4:86)

The Quran even deals with politeness in saying hello.

And whoso committeth a delinquency or crime, then throweth (the blame) thereof upon the innocent, hath burdened himself with falsehood and a flagrant crime. (4:112)

Do not blame others for your wrong doings.

Ye will not be able to deal equally between (your) wives, however much ye wish (to do so). But turn not altogether away (from one), leaving her as in suspense. If ye do good and keep from evil, lo! Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful. (4:129)

You may not agree with polygamy, as I do not unless under very severe circumstances, however it was normal in those days. This basically says if you marry a younger prettier wife do not ignore your older wife. The husband still has a duty to care for her and to sleep with her (fulfilling her needs).

O ye who believe! Be ye staunch in justice, witnesses for Allah, even though it be against yourselves or (your) parents or (your) kindred, whether (the case be of) a rich man or a poor man, for Allah is nearer unto both (them ye are). So follow not passion lest ye lapse (from truth) and if ye lapse or fall away, then lo! Allah is ever Informed of what ye do. (4:135)

We must be honest witnesses, even against ourselves.

Allah loveth not the utterance of harsh speech save by one who hath been wronged. Allah is ever Hearer, Knower (4:148)

This sounds like it means speak quietly because G-d doesn't like loud voices but what it is talking about is that you should not petition the 'government' (to use a modern term) unless you have been wronged. So don't make false claims.

Anyone still with me - very well done and thank you for your patience and interest.

Salaam

 

[seattlegal]

Still lurking.

 

[Muslimwoman]

Still lurking.

Thank you so much, we are only a short way through the Quran so this may be a bit of an endurance test for you.

It would be nice if any lurkers could post a quick hello ever now and again so I know I am not just typing for the sake of it.

 

[Muslimwoman]

Surah 5 is called al-maeda (meaning the table spread).

As the name suggests this chapter deals with what we are allowed to hunt and eat. It also deals with cleanliness, which is a very big issue in Islam. It tells the story of Cane & Abel but does not call them by name. It also deals with the difference in religions so is a very important chapter to me.

O ye who believe! Be steadfast witnesses for Allah in equity, and let not hatred of any people seduce you that ye deal not justly. Deal justly, that is nearer to your duty. Observe your duty to Allah. Lo! Allah is Informed of what ye do. (5:8)

It states deal justly with ANY people, not just Muslims or just people of the Book but everyone.

The Jews and Christians say: We are sons of Allah and His loved ones. Say: Why then doth He chastise you for your sins? Nay, ye are but mortals of His creating. He forgiveth whom He will, and chastiseth whom He will. Allah's is the Sovereignty of the heavens and the earth and all that is between them, and unto Him is the journeying. (5:18)

O People of the Scripture! Now hath Our messenger come unto you to make things plain unto you after an interval (of cessation) of the messengers, lest ye should say: There came not unto us a messenger of cheer nor any warner. Now hath a messenger of cheer and a warner come unto you. Allah is Able to do all things. (5:19)

Many Muslims choose to see the second verse as 'all people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians) should now become Muslim' but clearly in the first verse Allah says no group is above another. The Quran warns that others have gone astray from their Scriptures and they should return and hold fast to their original teaching. The message from Allah throughout the Scriptures has not changed, it is only people that have changed them and twisted their message (including in Islam). I am not saying that I believe all faiths practices are valid, clearly I do not believe Jesus (pbuh) was the son of G-d and I think worshipping him as a god is an insult to Allah. However, I do not believe it is my place to judge anothers beliefs, that is for Allah alone to do.

As for the thief, both male and female, cut off their hands. It is the reward of their own deeds, an exemplary punishment from Allah. Allah is Mighty, Wise. (5:38)

But whoso repenteth after his wrongdoing and amendeth, lo! Allah will relent toward him. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. (5:39)

Here we have the punishment for theft, sounds very cruel does it not. However, Muslims as well as others always forget the next verse. Wherever Allah prescribes a punishment he always says that if the person repents and amends their conduct they can avoid punishment. That is not so obvious in this second verse here but when you take the Quran as a whole it is so obvious, as it is said so often. Note it says who repenteth after their wrongdoing NOT who repenteth after their punishment.

Personally if it were up to me I would suggest that this is akin to the modern day '3 strikes and you are out' that exists in modern law. If the thief repents and amends then the punishment is not done, however if they continue to steal they know the punishment and take that upon themselves. Be very aware that stealing something such as bread if you are starving is dealt with elsewhere in the Quran, all must be judged justly.

And We prescribed for them therein: The life for the life, and the eye for the eye, and the nose for the nose, and the ear for the ear, and the tooth for the tooth, and for wounds retaliation. But whoso forgoeth it (in the way of charity) it shall be expiation for him. Whoso judgeth not by that which Allah hath revealed: such are wrong-doers. (5:45)

I have missed out a few very important verses here which I will put in a seperate post as I want to invite BB & Dauer to comment. I have put this verse in to demonstrate that punishments are prescribed but that foregoing punishments is an act of atonement. This verse refers to the Torah, the original Scripture and Allah is cofirming His message throughout the Scriptures that it is better not to take vengence and forgive when you have that choice. However repeat offenders must accept that punishments are severe.

Let the People of the Gospel judge by that which Allah hath revealed therein. Whoso judgeth not by that which Allah hath revealed: such are evil-livers. (5:47)

I really do suggest anyone with any interest in interfaith dialogue read this part of the Chapter, from verse 41. The Jews are told to judge by the Torah and here the Christians are told to judge by the Bible.

And what are Muslims told?:

And unto thee have We revealed the Scripture with the truth, confirming whatever Scripture was before it, and a watcher over it. So judge between them by that which Allah hath revealed, and follow not their desires away from the truth which hath come unto thee. For each We have appointed a divine law and a traced-out way. Had Allah willed He could have made you one community. But that He may try you by that which He hath given you (He hath made you as ye are). So vie one with another in good works. Unto Allah ye will all return, and He will then inform you of that wherein ye differ. (5:48)

Now people think I am a fruitcake because I beleve Allah has appointed to each of us a path and our test is to remain steadfast on that path, to accept what is true and reject what is false of our faith (ie the silly man made bits). But this is where I take that belief from - from the Word of Allah.

Can anyone please point out to me where Allah tells me here that everyone must be Muslim????? The Islamic stance comes in the next verse:

So judge between them by that which Allah hath revealed, and follow not their desires, but beware of them lest they seduce thee from some part of that which Allah hath revealed unto thee. And if they turn away, then know that Allah's Will is to smite them for some sin of theirs. Lo! many of mankind are evil-livers. (5:49)

Now I am told that 'that which Allah hath revealed' only means the Quran Allah has just finished telling us that He revealed all of the Scriptures and each must be judged by their Scripture. Now the way I read it is that the Quran confirms what is true and what is manmade of the Scriptures and it is that we must judge by. Therefore, the Quran confirms the story of the virgin birth so I cannot say a Christian is wrong for believing it.

Now if I am not a Muslim or I am going to burn in hell for my above beliefs then so be it, Allah has chosen my path and I shall walk it even againt such overwhelming odds.

In the very next verse Allah tells us:

Is it a judgment of the time of (pagan) ignorance that they are seeking? Who is better than Allah for judgment to a people who have certainty (in their belief)? (5:50)

Does this not mean that those seeking to sway us are not following any of the Scriptures or are not following them correctly? Me thinks so.

Say O People of the Scripture! Ye have naught (of guidance) till ye observe the Torah and the Gospel and that which was revealed unto you from your Lord. That which is revealed unto thee (Muhammad) from thy Lord is certain to increase the contumacy and disbelief of many of them. But grieve not for the disbelieving folk. (5:68)

Lo! those who believe, and those who are Jews, and Sabaeans, and Christians - Whosoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right - there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve. (5:69)

Oh look, more everyone must be Muslim ..... hmmmm. These are the words of Allah, I happen to think He knows what He is talking about. For me the message of the Quran for the Jews and Chrisitians is that they are straying from their Scriptures and must return to the original teachings, confirmed in the Quran. The first verse here refers to the Quran solidifying disbelief of any and one issue I believe this refers to is the trinity, as the Qurans rejection of the trinity has no doubt made millions of Christians reject the teachings of the Quran.

What I believe is that the message of Jesus (pbuh) is the message of G-d but the story of Jesus (pbuh) grew over time until he was said to be G-d himself.

We then go back to food again, what is allowed and not. Also superstitions are prohibited (slitting camels ears, divination, idol sacrifices, etc). We are told not to follow the ways of our fathers (traditions) because there is nothing to say our fathers followed a good path.

In the day when Allah gathereth together the messengers, and saith: What was your response (from mankind)? they say: We have no knowledge. Lo! Thou, only Thou art the Knower of Things Hidden, (5:109)

Look, even the Prophets do not know what is hidden in our hearts, yet we all run around judging each other and saying who is going to hell as though we know - shame on us.

 

[Abdullah]

Assalamualikum wr wb ,

I'd just like to thank MW for showing how Islam is a peacefull religion, ...and add a couple of things myself if I may.

Although Mw wouldn't have meant it that way, yet the style of her writing may make it seem to some that she is saying that there is a bad side to the Quran [i,e the verses about fighting], but there is also a good side to it; I'd just like to stress that there is nothing bad at all about the verses that advocates/condones martial activities in the Quran, nor are they in any way 'anti- peace', for they are all basically 'self defence' verses, and there is nothing wrong or anti peace about self defence.

And there is a slight error in one of MW'S 'take' on certain verses of the Quran [not saying that there are no more errors other than this one, but I'll just adress this one; for the expert interpretation of the Quran, rather than just the 'take' of a layperson, refer to following sites:

Altafsir.com – The Tafsirs - ÇáÊÝÇÓíÑ

Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir ]

MW mentioned that the majority of muslims view 'christianity and judaism' to be valid before the advent of Islam, implying that there is a minority of muslims that regard them religions to be valid even after the advent of Islam]; this is infact wrong for the entire Muslim community regard the previously revealed religions to be abrogated with the advent of Islam, thus being no longfer valid. Those 'Muslims' who hold the view that all religions are valid, or that Christianty and Judaism are still valid, they go out of Islam thus their view is not considered as a 'minority Muslim view'. For detailed evidence of these facts, refer to following threads:

http://www.comparative-religion.com/forum/only-muslims-allowed-in-heaven-7640.html

http://www.comparative-religion.com/forum/rabbinic-interpretation-and-jewish-law-7708.html

Peace and giudance to all

ps MW may claim that our view of religious exclusivity is held out of 'hate', but that too has been refuted in the threads mentioned

And finally, Mw, Ied Mubarak!

 

[Tao_Equus]

lmao Abdullah,

Just how many times in the course of human history have slaughters of the innocent taken place in the name of defence? The US is in Iraq in the name of some spun notion of defence. The Muslim butchering of innocents in Sudan is done in the name of defence. Why do you feel the need to chime in with such a comment? Why cant you "add too" rather than attempt to subvert what MW has painstakingly taken the time to post. And if is she is a layman what are you? Because your name is Abdullah and you are born in a particular region you think that gives you the right to state your interpretation and that it will always be better?

I am an atheist and I believe my views supersede anything written before I was born. Why is some guy born many 100's of years ago, who was illiterate and had a penchant for slave girls, any more right than me? For you it is one reason and one reason alone...though I know you will never get that, its because of your mindset. You have chosen to be brainwashed by ancient political mumbo jumbo. Hardly original is it. Hardly a correct interpretation of anything but the bleating of a sheep.

Tao