Are Theosophy & Anthroposophy Religions?

I think the issue is that many personal and organised spiritual belief systems will inevitably make claims that cannot stand up to any scientific scrutiny.

What may seem an outrageous claim to one person, may be a matter of faith to another. I'm sure many of us hold opinions on belief which are determined by personal experience, rather than through scientific validation (I'm always reminded of the fact that science could not explain how bees could fly, or fish swim as fast as they do, until more recent breakthroughs in modelling turbulence using chaos maths over the past decade - should we therefore have disbelieved that bees could fly or fish could swim fast before the maths was able to explain?).

In terms of racism - I agree that initially I raised the question of connections to the Neo Nazi's with Theosophy - but at present I'm satisfied that while there may have been anti-semitic beliefs held by people such as M. Blavatsky, I don't see this followed through in the Theosophical writings or philosophy since. I mean, if the TS really were focused on white superiority, why would they have announced the world's messiah was the Indian Krishnamurti in the early 20th century?
 
Brian,

I appreciate your support and open-mindedness on the subject. You are right about how Krishnamurti's story shows that the Theosphical Society is not a racial organization -- I had not thought of it that way.
 
I said:
I mean, if the TS really were focused on white superiority, why would they have announced the world's messiah was the Indian Krishnamurti in the early 20th century?
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Brian, they only problem with this theory is that after the TS chose him it resulted in significant disagreement within the movement and Krishnamurti rejected Theosophy after 1929:

Jiddu Krishnamurti - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
It doesn't matter to me where they are made -- if claims are presented as being either scientific or historical, then it is perfectly acceptable to expect questions and even challenges on those points from a scientific or historical stance. (And I don't care if the person asking is an "insider" or "outsider" as scientific and historical questions really don't change because of who is asking them.)
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bgruagach,

Re...scientific and historical questions really don't change because of who is asking them.

That's a very good point and one I'm going to keep in mind from now on. If I had looked at the issue in that way, I might have avoided a lot of unnecessary friction in on this forum and elsewhere.

Thanks! :)

--Linda
 
Avi said:
Brian, they only problem with this theory is that after the TS chose him it resulted in significant disagreement within the movement and Krishnamurti rejected Theosophy after 1929:

Jiddu Krishnamurti - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Indeed, but the fact is they chose an Indian, not some blue-eyed blonde American-Australian or similar figure.

And, of course, it is absolutely ironic that a person picked by an organisation to lead them, then turned around and repudiated all forms of organised belief!

More on Krishnamurti on the frontend of IO:
jiddu krishnamurti - alternative spirituality
 
I said:
Indeed, but the fact is they chose an Indian, not some blue-eyed blonde American-Australian or similar figure.

And, of course, it is absolutely ironic that a person picked by an organisation to lead them, then turned around and repudiated all forms of organised belief!

More on Krishnamurti on the frontend of IO:
jiddu krishnamurti - alternative spirituality
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Hi Brian,
Those "blue-eyed blondes" are just a Nazi idea of Aryan. The Persians/Iraqis, the Iranians (Iran means Aryan), and the Indians are considered Aryan. HPB was friendly with the Arya Samaj when she first went to india. That organization still exists today.
Blavatsky described the fifth root race with the following words: "The Aryan races, for instance, now varying from dark brown, almost black, red-brown-yellow, down to the whitest creamy colour, are yet all of one and the same stock -- the Fifth Root-Race -- and spring from one single progenitor [
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K. was an Aryan (but that's neither here nor there) and he wasn't chosen as leader of the TS.
Charlie Leadbeater chose Krishnamurti to be the future World Teacher (or incarnation of Christ) after changing his mind on other candidates. Annie Besant went along with it, and during this time the Society had its greatest number of members. However many didn't like the Leadbeater teachings and way of life. The "Back to Blavatskyites" started their own new societies, and the majority of the German Section went with Rudolf Steiner.
 
Bruce,

If I remember correctly, Annie Besant said that Indians are the first sub-race of the Fifth Race, and Iranians (Persians) are the second sub-race of the Fifth Race. I find it fascinating to think that the name Aryan was possibly taken from the second sub-race and not the first sub-race.

I also agree that true Aryans are not blonde-haired and blue-eyed, as the Nazis propogandized them to be. (Techinically speaking, some are blonde-haired and blue-eyed, but most are not.)
 
Nick the Pilot said:
Bruce,

If I remember correctly, Annie Besant said that Indians are the first sub-race of the Fifth Race, and Iranians (Persians) are the second sub-race of the Fifth Race. I find it fascinating to think that the name Aryan was possibly taken from the second sub-race and not the first sub-race.

I also agree that true Aryans are not blonde-haired and blue-eyed, as the Nazis propogandized them to be. (Techinically speaking, some are blonde-haired and blue-eyed, but most are not.)
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She may have had it that way, Nick. Dr. Steiner has it like this:

  1. first sub as the Ancient Indian (prehistorical)
  2. and then the Ancient Persian,
  3. 3rd- the Egyptian, Babylonian, Assyrian;
  4. 4th- the Greek (the Hebrew coincides)
We are in the Fifth Post Atlantean Epoch (or Sub Race). The whole Root Race was once referred to as "Aryan" (meaning "Noble"), so all of the above Sub Races are part of it. Since the Nazis tainted the term we can refer to it as the Post Atlantean Root Race or Cultural Epoch.
 
Bruce,

I think it is fascinating that Steiner lists Hebrew (Jews) as part of the third sub-race. Blavatsky seems to be saying that the Jews were the first sub-race (which supposedly began the difficulties the Jews have had all the way to the present). I wonder how the discrepancy is resolved.
 
Nick the Pilot said:
Bruce,

I think it is fascinating that Steiner lists Hebrew (Jews) as part of the third sub-race. Blavatsky seems to be saying that the Jews were the first sub-race (which supposedly began the difficulties the Jews have had all the way to the present). I wonder how the discrepancy is resolved.
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These are the dates (by Steiner) (I haven't double checked, but they look OK):
7893 BC Ancient Indian 5733 BC > Ancient Persian Epoch 2970 BC > Egypto- Chaldean 747BC > 4th- Greco-Roman Epoch > 1413 AD > 5th Present > 3573 AD

You can find similarities between the Greek myths and the Hebrew stories -
I Maccabees 12:21, where we read;, 'It has been found in a writing concerning the Lacedaemonians (Greeks) and Jews (Judah), that they are kinsmen, and that they are descended from Abraham.' Yes, Israelites colonised Greece in early times, and the Greek religion shows us proof of an Hebrew origin, as stated in the Apocrypha in the Bible. The most well known Greek God-hero was the one known as Hercules (the Latinised form of the Greek "Heracles"), whose most distinguishing characteristic was immense physical strength. Interestingly enough, the "Encyclopedia of the Classical World, " states, " The tales of his heroic deeds lend to the supposition that Hercules was originally an historic figure." Who do we know in the Bible that exhibits a like characteristic? The answer, of course, is the Israelite hero known as Samson, whose life was detailed in the Bible in Judges chapters 13 through 16.
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Greek Mythology and The Bible
 
Avi said:
Ok Bruce and Nick, you are obviously both very focused on racial differences. I would like to invite you to the B&S sub-forum, where we can discuss your focus on racial differences in an open setting:

===============>>>>>>>>>>>>http://www.interfaith.org/forum/theosophy-open-discussion-12364.html#post219700
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We are not focused on racial differences Avi, rather we are concerned with Universal Brotherhood. Now you can try to understand or actively misunderstand- it's your choice.
If you came to a theosophical society wishing to give a talk on Jewish Mysticism, for instance, you'd find the podium was open to you (particularly in the Adyar Society). In fact the Star of David is there carved in wood on the wall, in some of the lecture halls - along with the symbols of the other major religions.

Speaking from my own understanding there are twelve prototypical races (some give seven). There are twelve because the correspond to the Zodiac influences- just as the Twelve tribes of Israel and the twelve knights of the Round Table. The times of the Cultural Epochs (or Subraces) relate to, but do not correspond to the Zodiac Ages (Age of Aquarius, Age of Aries etc.).

Just as on cannot say that one particular Zodiac sign is better than another, so it is with the races. They are different but complement each other. Nature loves variety- and so do I:).
 
Avi said:
Bruce, as I said on the earlier post, I think this discussion is better continued in the B&S sub-forum because it is a neutral setting.
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To form a nucleus of the Universal Brotherhood of Humanity, without distinction of race, creed, sex, caste or color.
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The primary purpose of the Theosophical Society is to encourage altruism and compassion. The Society does offer for consideration some basic theosophical concepts which lie at the root of the world's philosophies and religions; but beyond supporting its objectives, those wishing to join need not accept any particular beliefs, and members may belong to any religion or to none. While members may pursue whatever activities they wish, the Society itself is unsectarian and nonpolitical, open to all people regardless of race, nationality, class, creed, or gender. Its endeavor is to aid humanity rather than promote or strengthen the self-interests of its members.

Blavatsky held that "the very root idea of the Society is free and fearless investigation."
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The Theosophical Society

Theosophists have no dogmas, exact no blind faith. Theosophists are ever ready to abandon every idea that is proved erroneous upon strictly logical deductions; let Spiritualists do the same. Dogmas are the toys that amuse, and can satisfy, but unreasoning children. They are the offspring of human speculation and prejudiced fancy.....

Realizing, as they do, the boundlessness of the absolute truth, Theosophists repudiate all claim to infallibility. The most cherished preconceptions, the most "pious hope," the strongest "master passion," they sweep aside like dust from their path, when their error is pointed out. Their highest hope is to approximate to the truth. That they have succeeded in going a few steps beyond the Spiritualists, they think proved in their conviction that they know nothing in comparison with what is to be learned; in their sacrifice of every pet theory and prompting of emotionalism at the shrine of fact; and in their absolute and unqualified repudiation of everything that smacks of "dogma." - Blavatsky
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As it was said.
 
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