The inquisition

[wil]

Did you see the news piece about the Vatican publishing its documents on the supression of the Knights Templar recently?

Oh yeah...read the Vatican History pages...I did!

It is just that if one historian turns one page back once to see if what he read was correct that is more damage than an electronic recorder would do and once it is done the book will never need to be opened again....

 

[bob x]

Course, probably our fault for not going to war with France to protect them.

Your fault for giving them the legal cover in the first place: you created the criminalization of dissident belief, and the procedure of using grotesque torture to investigate such cases; and even when you knew that it was a mass murder of innocents, you signed off on it, rather than lose your revenue stream.

 

[seattlegal]

Hi Wil —

I know, I know ... (sigh) ... whatever we do, it will never be enough. Seems we are obliged to carry the burden of the fruit of the Fall — "It wasn't my fault!" (Adam blamed Eve, Eve blamed the serpent ... we've all been trying to shift the blame, ever since.)

How about we apologise to everyone, here and now, for everything that ever happened, ever?. Will it be accepted, I wonder?

Isn't that what Christianity is all about--the renunciation of and the forgiveness of sins?
Matt 6:14-15

14 “For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.​

Luke 7:47

47 Therefore I say to you, her sins, which are many, are forgiven, for she loved much. But to whom little is forgiven, the same loves little.”​

 

[Thomas]

Isn't that what Christianity is all about -- the renunciation of and the forgiveness of sins?

Oh, that goes without saying! We forgive the world their trespasses against us, and never have we asked for an apology. We apologise for our trespasses against the world however, and hope that the world can find it in itself to forgive us ... but we don't hold our breath: "And you shall be hated by all men for my name's sake" (Matthew 10:22).

Thomas

 

[17th Angel]

You talk as if you deserve forgiveness.... If someone asks to be forgiven, that doesn't mean the other side/person/whatever HAS to forgive they can hold a grudge for all eternity agaisn't you.... That is there decision... Forgive or hate... That is up to them, there is no law that states you must forgive someone if they ask for it. I guess some people are not looking for apologies and such... They just wish to remind you of what your religion has done.

 

[Thomas]

You talk as if you deserve forgiveness....

Not at all. The Catholic Church has apologised, it assumes nothing more.

If someone asks to be forgiven, that doesn't mean the other side/person/whatever HAS to forgive they can hold a grudge for all eternity agaisn't you.... That is there decision... Forgive or hate... That is up to them, there is no law that states you must forgive someone if they ask for it. I guess some people are not looking for apologies and such... They just wish to remind you of what your religion has done.

That, tragically, is the burden they choose to carry.

Thomas

 

[17th Angel]

Takes all shapes and sizes to make the world go round

 

[bob x]

The Vatican has no purpose except to compel conformity in beliefs: it cannot achieve this purpose anymore because it has lost the political power to do so (thanks to the struggle of many people to fight its power). Why does it continue to exist then? Thomas, you cannot get forgiveness without *renouncing* the sin, not just apologizing weakly for past instances of it.

 

[seattlegal]

You talk as if you deserve forgiveness.... If someone asks to be forgiven, that doesn't mean the other side/person/whatever HAS to forgive they can hold a grudge for all eternity agaisn't you.... That is there decision... Forgive or hate... That is up to them, there is no law that states you must forgive someone if they ask for it. I guess some people are not looking for apologies and such... They just wish to remind you of what your religion has done.

Well, isn't it rather silly to hold a grudge against someone because of something that their great-great-great-great-great grandfather's fifth cousin twice removed might have done to that person's great-great-great-great-great grandmother's second cousin twice removed, especially if that descendant doesn't do that sort of thing their ancestor was accused of doing?

 

[wil]

Originally Posted by 17th Angel
If someone asks to be forgiven, that doesn't mean the other side/person/whatever HAS to forgive they can hold a grudge for all eternity agaisn't you.... That is there decision... Forgive or hate... That is up to them, there is no law that states you must forgive someone if they ask for it. I guess some people are not looking for apologies and such...

That, tragically, is the burden they choose to carry.

Funny thing about forgiveness, it has little affect on those forgiven, and tons on those who forgive.

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

Funny thing about forgiveness, it has little affect on those forgiven, and tons on those who forgive.

Yes!

But most of the time our ego, or whatever it is, won't let us release the burden because it seems like a give-away to the perpetrator of the harm against us. Instead of thinking "it is good for me to release this burden, I will act in my own self interest and let it go," we think, "I must hold on to this burden because if I don't there is no justice." Forgiveness doesn't release the perpetrator of harm from the consequences of his/her/their actions, it releases the victim from the double burden of harm that results from carrying around the fear and anger and need for revenge and other bad things that come with being victimized. What happens is that we assign a portion of ourselves to play the victimizer so that the other part, the victim in us, can continue to have an immediate target to grind it's anger against. We become both victim and victimizer, and we eat ourselves up from the inside because we can't let go of the inner battle.

Chris

 

[madeinrussia89]

Catholics now shouldn't have to apologize for or even feel guilt for the heinous crimes the Vatican committed in the past. All that is to be done is to prevent it from happening again.

And people need to stop blaming the religion for these acts of cruelty when it's the mistakes of people who clearly don't follow it in the first place.

Catholicism did this, Catholicism did that, Catholicism didn't do anything, people just made stupid clearly misguided decisions.

 

[bob x]

The Catholicism is the reason WHY they made evil (by no means "stupid") decisions. The way to prevent it from happening again is to abolish the institution. Should we have talked about "reforming" the Nazi Party, to make sure the same "mistakes" didn't happen again?

 

[wil]

Catholics now shouldn't have to apologize for or even feel guilt for the heinous crimes the Vatican committed in the past. All that is to be done is to prevent it from happening again.

And people need to stop blaming the religion for these acts of cruelty when it's the mistakes of people who clearly don't follow it in the first place.

Catholicism did this, Catholicism did that, Catholicism didn't do anything, people just made stupid clearly misguided decisions.

Are we speaking of the inquisition or of the cases of child abuse and cover up? What exactly is being done to prevent it happening again if the system is designed to not divulge the perpetrators? Is it on the table to modify the confessional to require priests to inform the authorities when someone is of harm to themselves or others?

 

[Thomas]

Is it on the table to modify the confessional to require priests to inform the authorities when someone is of harm to themselves or others?

So that priests everywhere would be required by law to divulge information to the state — and the state security services — that the state deems necessary for its own security ... and doctors, presumably, as they too are covered by client privilege ... and lawyers ...

... it's the slope to 1984, Wil ...

Thomas

 

[wil]

So that priests everywhere would be required by law to divulge information to the state — and the state security services — that the state deems necessary for its own security ... and doctors, presumably, as they too are covered by client privilege ... and lawyers ...

... it's the slope to 1984, Wil ...

Thomas

is it? or equal justice under the law realized? Why do we allow loop hole that air craft carriers(or whole institutions) can drive through instead of striving for truth and justice?

 

[Thomas]

The Catholicism is the reason WHY they made evil (by no means "stupid") decisions.

Rubbish ... and I assume you are insisting that Catholicism is institutionally evil, not just stupid or misguided?

The way to prevent it from happening again is to abolish the institution. Should we have talked about "reforming" the Nazi Party, to make sure the same "mistakes" didn't happen again?

OK, so lets abolish every institution that anyone chooses to hold responsible for any acts of injustice ... it would be a long and comprehensive list ...

And it would still miss the point.

Thomas

 

[bob x]

Catholicism is institutionally evil, not just stupid or misguided?

It is based on the principle of compulsory uniformity of belief. This is obscured now, because it has lost the power of compulsion.

 

[madeinrussia89]

The Catholicism is the reason WHY they made evil (by no means "stupid") decisions. The way to prevent it from happening again is to abolish the institution. Should we have talked about "reforming" the Nazi Party, to make sure the same "mistakes" didn't happen again?

Catholicism isn't based on institutional evil, but the love of Christ, like Orthodoxy and Protestant churches alike.

Stupid, undoubtedly evil decisions were made, but that's not the fault of Catholicism itself, Catholicism doesn't promote crimes against humanity, it's just some of the members have fallen into error (laity, priests, bishops, Popes especially) and need to be corrected.

The Nazi Party was based on hatred and intolerance, Christianity is based on love. They aren't the same. By no means is the message of Christ in Catholicism " go out and kill, rape, abuse kids, torture everyone who doesn't comply, install the church into the political sphere as much as possible ", people who do these things aren't living the Catholic faith period anyway.

 

[17th Angel]

Well, isn't it rather silly to hold a grudge against someone because of something that their great-great-great-great-great grandfather's fifth cousin twice removed might have done to that person's great-great-great-great-great grandmother's second cousin twice removed, especially if that descendant doesn't do that sort of thing their ancestor was accused of doing?

It may well be silly to you... But to others? Nah ah... It mean's everything.... I am trying to state.. It doesn't matter how hard you try and ask EVERYONE for forgivness, you just won't get it, because some just don't want to give you that, they would rather watch you squirm and have ammo for their offensive.