The Cunning Arts....

I'll dryly summarize what I was trying to say:

The Moon can be wonderous as is displayed by exalted gods and godesses like Artemis and Isis. Perhaps they are cunning, but being cunning isn't what makes them exalted. Hecate is a she-bitch (she'll attest to that).

It is the nature of the Moon to reflect the Sun. When the Moon is not united with other energies it can lead to idleness and distracting jibber-jabber. Since staring directly into the sun is a waste of time, then isn't also studying the dark side of the moon for its own sake a waste of time for the same reason?

Persephone had her fate decided for her because she was not protected.

Some may say something like "that's just your opinion" to which I would respond "who else's opinion would it be?"
 
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If what I'm expressing still doesn't make sense, then perhaps a Qabalic explaination will do (if you don't care about Qabalah feel free not to tell me about it);

9+9=18

=1+8=9

Also, 9+9+9=9.

9+9+9+9=9

9+9+9+9+9+9+9+9=9

9+9+9+9+9+9+9+9+9+9+9+9+9+9+9+9+9+9+9+9+9 still equals 9.

See a trend? What's the most that can come of this?
 
Eclectic Mystic said:
It is the nature of the Moon to reflect the Sun. When the Moon is not united with other energies it can lead to idleness and distracting jibber-jabber. Since staring directly into the sun is a waste of time, then isn't also studying the dark side of the moon for its own sake a waste of time for the same reason?
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Now that's a very interesting point. :)
 
It is the nature of the Moon to reflect the Sun. When the Moon is not united with other energies it can lead to idleness and distracting jibber-jabber. Since staring directly into the sun is a waste of time, then isn't also studying the dark side of the moon for its own sake a waste of time for the same reason?
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Nice imagery -- but it's a completely inaccurate metaphor with regard to either the cunning arts or magickal spirituality.

It's like dismissing scientists who specialize in a particular field or even a particular topic because it's supposedly the equivalent of "staring at the sun" or wasting time on "jibber-jabber."

"One true way" thinking might be nice and tidy and comforting but many of us find life is a lot messier and uncertain. Some of us find the Divine and Creation are worth honouring as They are rather than by imposing an artificial human-invented ideal onto Them.
 
bgruagach said:
It could be argued that any influx of newcomers to the British Isles wasn't "really" an invasion. Regardless what we call it, it still means that a new cultural group came to the shores of the British Isles and had an impact on the people who lived there. It's also part of the historical record that many of these waves of newcomers involved bloodshed and at least some conflict.
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But surely the conversion to Christianity of the people of the British Isles involved conversion of those who were already there, with a few newcomers in the form of missionary monks. The pagan Anglo-Saxons didn't ship out back to the lands they came from to make space for the Christians, they became the Christians. When the Anglos-Saxons, Danes and Normans came, they were invasions. Really though, we're getting into semantics here because I chose to be a little jokey about 17th's use of the term 'invasion'. :rolleyes: Silly me.
 
bgruagach said:
It could be argued that any influx of newcomers to the British Isles wasn't "really" an invasion. Regardless what we call it, it still means that a new cultural group came to the shores of the British Isles and had an impact on the people who lived there. It's also part of the historical record that many of these waves of newcomers involved bloodshed and at least some conflict.

The essay linked earlier was specifically about the Inquisition. For information about the witch hunts in the British Isles, check out The Great Witch Hunt: The Persecution of Witches in England, 1550-1660 - [2003] AukULRev 3; (2003) 9(4) Auckland University Law Review 1152 I'd also suggest Owen Davies' books "Witchcraft, Magic and Culture 1736-1951" and "Cunning-Folk" for solid historical information about the witch hunts as well as cunning folk and folk magick practices in the UK prior to when Gerald Gardner appeared on the scene in the 1950s.
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Dear Ben,
Of course there were many invasions from non-Christian peoples such as the Vikings and the Romans.

The Roman departure from Britain was completed by 410.

Christianity was easily accepted by the Druids- there really wasn't a bloody revolution there. The mysteries of Hibernia were presentient to the Christian Sun Mystery- discussed in The Flaming Door: Mission of the Celtic Folk Soul
by Eleanor C. Merry.
"This volume is a preliminary study of the mission of the Celtic folk-soul by means of legends and myths. This book deals chiefly, as a beginning, with ancient Hibernia and Wales. The Celtic mysteries have a peculiar destiny, in that they contain an impulse of rebirth, not in their own original form, but as the bearers of a light to lighten the way to a renewed, a nobler Christianity. "


Even before Christianity, Ireland was known as the Sacred Island. It was also called Scotia or Scotland down to the eleventh century. Celtic Christianity was the order of the day before Rome took charge.

Celtic Christianity, or Insular Christianity (sometimes commonly called the Celtic Church) broadly refers to the Early Medieval Christian practice that developed around the Irish Sea in the fifth and sixth centuries: that is, among Celtic/British peoples such as the Irish, Scottish, Welsh, Cornish, Manx, Cumbrians (the inhabitants of the British Isles excepting the Anglo-Saxons and some Picts). By extension, it may refer to the monastic networks founded as satellite institutions of Celtic communities in Scotland and the Continent, especially Gaul (France).
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Most of the later bloodshed can be accounted for in the fights between the Protestants and the Catholics.

Blessings,
Br.Bruce
 
Bruce Michael said:
Dear Ben,

Christianity was easily accepted by the Druids- there really wasn't a bloody revolution there. The mysteries of Hibernia were presentient to the Christian Sun Mystery- discussed in The Flaming Door: Mission of the Celtic Folk Soul
by Eleanor C. Merry.
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I wouldn't say that Christianity was easily accepted by the Druids, since there is evidence of quite a bit of resistence. I can look up some references if you like, but historians do not think that Christianity was easily accept by the original Druids, although the revival-period Druids blended what they could surmise of the original Pagan beliefs with Christianity and Western Mystery groups such as the Freemasons and Rosicrucians.

However, I believe you are right in the sense that it was not as foreign in its concepts (such as rebirth/resurrection, a god that is self-sacrificing, etc.) as it was to some other indigenous earth-based traditions. The Druids, from what little evidence we have, appear to have absorbed some of the concepts, likewise, Christianity in the UK and Ireland absorbed quite a bit of the traditional Pagan concepts (and still retains that flavor). However, it certainly was the case that the Druids resisted Roman Catholicism, and also that there was plenty of healthy debate between Celtic Christians and Catholics.

The vestiges of the Pagan theology are visible in the sharp divide between some of the concepts in Celtic Christianity and Catholicism/traditional Protestantism. For example, some of the main Celtic Christian figures believed in the essential goodness of humanity (as opposed to the more traditional/conservative view in Christianity that humanity is born inherently wicked, fallen, and depraved). Many of these people were denounced as heretics by the Catholic church. One great resource on Celtic Christianity and its distinctions from other forms of Christianity is "Listening for the Heartbeat of God."

Peace to all,
Kim/Path
 
path_of_one said:
I wouldn't say that Christianity was easily accepted by the Druids, since there is evidence of quite a bit of resistence. I can look up some references if you like, but historians do not think that Christianity was easily accept by the original Druids, although the revival-period Druids blended what they could surmise of the original Pagan beliefs with Christianity and Western Mystery groups such as the Freemasons and Rosicrucians.

However, I believe you are right in the sense that it was not as foreign in its concepts (such as rebirth/resurrection, a god that is self-sacrificing, etc.) as it was to some other indigenous earth-based traditions. The Druids, from what little evidence we have, appear to have absorbed some of the concepts, likewise, Christianity in the UK and Ireland absorbed quite a bit of the traditional Pagan concepts (and still retains that flavor). However, it certainly was the case that the Druids resisted Roman Catholicism, and also that there was plenty of healthy debate between Celtic Christians and Catholics.

The vestiges of the Pagan theology are visible in the sharp divide between some of the concepts in Celtic Christianity and Catholicism/traditional Protestantism. For example, some of the main Celtic Christian figures believed in the essential goodness of humanity (as opposed to the more traditional/conservative view in Christianity that humanity is born inherently wicked, fallen, and depraved). Many of these people were denounced as heretics by the Catholic church. One great resource on Celtic Christianity and its distinctions from other forms of Christianity is "Listening for the Heartbeat of God."

Peace to all,
Kim/Path
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Hi Kim,
I did find a little on this ( and I know there is more).

The Druids had a Madonna or Virgin Mother, with a Child in her arms...
and their Sun God was resurrected at the time of the year corresponding to that which modern Christians celebrate Easter.
Secret Teachings of All Ages
By Manly Palmer Hall

Taliesin the Bard and Druid circa AD 550 "Christ the word from the beginning, was from the beginning our teacher and we never lost his teachings. Christianity in Asia was a new thing, but there was never a time when the Druids of Britain held not its doctrine.

”Good brother in Christ,” he [Taliesin] said, ”your God and my God are one and the same.””


Spirit and Art: Pictures of the Transformation of Consciousness
By Van James

Tradition tells of Irish Druids who were aware of the death and resurrection of Christ simply through their "seeing" into the elements. One story tells of King Conchubar inquiring of his Druid Burrach, what the signs of the full moon, darkened sun and earthquakes on Good Friday AD 33 meant. Burach responds "Jesus Christ the Son of God is now being crucified.
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Cernussos the Celtic Stag god, was an annunication of the unincarnated Sun Being- Sun Christ.

The subject is thoroughly dealt with in From Round Table to Grail Castle by Isabel Wyatt.

-Br.Bruce
 
Yes, these are the sorts of connections that were relatively easy to forge between a liberal Christianity and the Druidic tradition (at least as much as we can know of it, given the limited resources). Historically, there was resistence to the church, including to St. Patrick and St. Columbo (some of my personal favorites), but the concepts in Christianity were not foreign to them, hence the legend that Christ in his early years went to the British Isles before beginning his ministry in the Middle East.

It is worth noting, though, that Druidry only "works" with certain types of Christianity. Many modern Christian concepts, such as a relatively solid heaven and hell, a lack of reincarnation, original sin, monotheism, and the view of magic as sinful are all generally incompatible with most forms of modern Druidry. Blending the two can work (I do it, as do many others), but it requires, from what I've experienced in myself and others, a rather liberal and independent interpretation of Christianity.
 
Impqueen said:
we're getting into semantics here because I chose to be a little jokey about 17th's use of the term 'invasion'. :rolleyes: Silly me.
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Yeah, that's cool.... It's just one big joke to you! ISN'T IT!$!"£$!..... heh...

wil said:
Numerology, summing the numbers until you get a number less than ten. So any multiple of nine ends up back at nine.
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......Sorry you are going to have to explain that to me in -simple- terms... What the hell does that prove? lol.........
 
path_of_one said:
Yes, these are the sorts of connections that were relatively easy to forge between a liberal Christianity and the Druidic tradition (at least as much as we can know of it, given the limited resources). Historically, there was resistence to the church, including to St. Patrick and St. Columbo (some of my personal favorites), but the concepts in Christianity were not foreign to them, hence the legend that Christ in his early years went to the British Isles before beginning his ministry in the Middle East.

It is worth noting, though, that Druidry only "works" with certain types of Christianity. Many modern Christian concepts, such as a relatively solid heaven and hell, a lack of reincarnation, original sin, monotheism, and the view of magic as sinful are all generally incompatible with most forms of modern Druidry. Blending the two can work (I do it, as do many others), but it requires, from what I've experienced in myself and others, a rather liberal and independent interpretation of Christianity.
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My Christianity is informed by Anthroposophy (among other things):

THE SUN-INITIATION OF THE DRUID PRIEST AND HIS MOON-SCIENCE
 
17th Angel said:
I have noticed... (to my dislike) There isn't much life in the Alternative rooms... So I have picked a random subject lol and I am chucking it out far down the field... Hoping to get some movement at least......

The cunning arts! So, that is just another word for witchcraft or paganism.... Right? Wrong... There are many connections to the stereotypical titles of witchcraft and paganism... But digging deeper, which I am currently doing there is so much in this not just a religion... (I tend to see religion as a hobby) This is a way of life... The old ways.... What has made me EVEN more interested in finding out about the cunning arts is, Devon... Where I live... That was it's bread and butter... Some pretty interesting customs/folklore/just the overall culture... We even had our freaking language/dialect.... I am from Devon and never knew this... lol I must learn it.. Anyway getting distracted slightly... The cunning arts.... What do you know about it? share your thoughts perchance?
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If you want the real history, this book is unsurpassed:

Grimm's Teutonic Mythology by the Brother's Grimm
 
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