Sean....

The ideal of Baha'i marriage:

!7th angel ..

If your asking about Baha'i marriage and whether we Baha'is sanction Muslim law about using any physical force...the answer is an emphatic "no". Baha'is do not use any corporal punishment what so ever.

A "legal opinion" on a Muslim law has very little relevance to us since we have our own laws and obligations well defined for us.

The ideal of Baha'i marriage was well stated here:

"The Lord, peerless is He, hath made woman and man to abide with each other in the closest companionship, and to be even as a single soul. They are two helpmates, two intimate friends, who should be concerned about the welfare of each other. If they live thus, they will pass through this world with perfect contentment, bliss, and peace of heart, and become the object of divine grace and favour in the Kingdom of heaven."
 
17th Angel said:
These quotes... Who writes them? Are they in some sort of special holy book which would be seen like a bible or koran or something?
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While the text I think you are looking for is the Kitáb-i-Aqdas, the Bahai use all holy books, including the Quran and Bible. I think you'd enjoy Ocean immensely. Oh I so look forward to future posts and comparisons.
 
Source of quote:

Ocean is definitely a fine resource.

The verse I quoted above about marriage is from the Baha'i Writings:

"...The Lord, peerless is He, hath made woman and man to abide with each other in the closest companionship, and to be even as a single soul. They are two helpmates, two intimate friends, who should be concerned about the welfare of each other. "If they live thus, they will pass through this world with perfect contentment, bliss, and peace of heart, and become the object of Divine grace and favour in the Kingdom of heaven. But if they do other than this, they will live out their lives in great bitterness, longing at every moment for death, and will be shamefaced in the heavenly realm. "Strive, then, to abide, heart and soul, with each other as two doves in the nest, for this is to be blessed in both worlds."

('Abdu'l-Bahá: Selected Writings of 'Abdu'l-Bahá, p. 122)
(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 226)

So it is from Abdul-Baha rather than the Aqdas.


- Art:)
 
17th Angel said:
........ They use them all? That isn't...... Confusing at all?
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Not once you understand the nature of their belief system. Much like a Christian has compiled Jewish and Christian works and a Muslim utilizes Jewish, Christian and Muslim texts. But each has added their twist, seen the texts evolve in a manner, as has the Bahai.

Tis one of the arguments, they see no disagreement where others see plenty, but others don't see they've interpreted or modified the texts to create harmony over time.
arthra said:
So it is from Abdul-Baha rather than the Aqdas. :)
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Namaste Art,

Please continue to correct me where I err
 
The original discussion was concerning laws from a Messenger of God and comparing them to the reality we have today.

There's another example about similar laws from older religions. This is a famous one.

21:24 Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
21:25 Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.
21:26 And if a man smite the eye of his servant, or the eye of his maid, that it perish; he shall let him go free for his eye's sake.
21:27 And if he smite out his manservant's tooth, or his maidservant's tooth; he shall let him go free for his tooth's sake.
21:28 If an ox gore a man or a woman, that they die: then the ox shall be surely stoned, and his flesh shall not be eaten; but the owner of the ox shall be quit.
(King James Bible, Exodus)

It goes on a little further, but you get the idea. Remember though once again that Moses lived in much different circumstances than we do today. I believe Abdul-Baha explains it fairly well.

His Holiness Moses lived in the wilderness of Sinai where crime necessitated direct punishment. There were no penitentiaries or penalties of imprisonment. Therefore according to the exigency of the time and place it was a law of God that an eye should be given for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. It would not be practicable to enforce this law at the present time; for instance to blind a man who accidentally blinded you. In the Torah there are many commands concerning the punishment of a murderer. It would not be allowable or possible to carry out these ordinances today. Human conditions and exigencies are such that even the question of capital punishment, -- the one penalty which most nations have continued to enforce for murder, -- is now under discussion by wise men who are debating its advisability. In fact, laws for the ordinary conditions of life are only valid temporarily. The exigencies of the time of Moses justified cutting off a man's hand for theft but such a penalty is not allowable now. Time changes conditions, and laws change to suit conditions. We must remember that these changing laws are not the essentials; they are the accidentals of religion. The essential ordinances established by a Manifestation of God are spiritual; they concern moralities, the ethical development of man and faith in God. They are ideal and necessarily permanent; expressions of the one foundation and not amenable to change or transformation. Therefore the fundamental basis of the revealed religion of God is immutable, unchanging throughout the centuries, not subject to the varying conditions of the human world.
(Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - Abdu'l-Baha Section, p. 274)

And times and conditions did change. As Jesus stated.....

5:38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
5:40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also.
5:41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
5:42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
(King James Bible, Matthew)

Now, that doesn't mean that Judaism is wrong and Christianity is right, it just means that times have changed and what may have been nominally acceptable before is no longer acceptable. Jesus also said.

5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.
(King James Bible, John)

The essential spiritual teachings of Judaism are ever-present
3,3 Let not kindness and truth forsake thee; bind them about thy neck, write them upon the table of thy heart;
(Kesuvim (Writings), Mishlei (Proverbs))

19,18 Thou shalt not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.
(Torah (Law), Vayikra (Leviticus))And, the Bahai teachings are very explicit in this regard.

O ye beloved of the Lord! In this sacred Dispensation, conflict and contention are in no wise permitted. Every aggressor deprives himself of God's grace. It is incumbent upon everyone to show the utmost love, rectitude of conduct, straightforwardness and sincere kindliness unto all the peoples and kindreds of the world, be they friends or strangers. So intense must be the spirit of love and loving kindness, that the stranger may find himself a friend, the enemy a true brother, no difference whatsoever existing between them.
(Abdu'l-Baha, The Will and Testament, p. 13)

Whensoever a mother seeth that her child hath done well, let her praise and applaud him and cheer his heart; and if the slightest undesirable trait should manifest itself, let her counsel the child and punish him, and use means based on reason, even a slight verbal chastisement should this be necessary. It is not, however, permissible to strike a child, or vilify him, for the child's character will be totally perverted if he be subjected to blows or verbal abuse.
(Abdu'l-Baha, Selections from the Writings of Abdu'l-Baha, p. 125)

In fact we don't even want to say bad things about people when they're absent.

26. O SON OF BEING!
How couldst thou forget thine own faults and busy thyself with the faults of others? Whoso doeth this is accursed of Me.

27. O SON OF MAN!
Breathe not the sins of others so long as thou art thyself a sinner. Shouldst thou transgress this command, accursed wouldst thou be, and to this I bear witness.
(Baha'u'llah, The Arabic Hidden Words)

17th Angel - Bahais have a great benefit since when Baha'u'lllah came he made many tablets and several holy books. The original quote that I gave you ...

By My spirit and by My favor! By My mercy and by My beauty! All that I have revealed unto thee with the tongue of power, and have written for thee with the pen of might, hath been in accordance with thy capacity and understanding, not with My state and the melody of My voice.
(Baha'u'llah, The Arabic Hidden Words)

comes from the Hidden Words which can be found here The Hidden Words as well as Ocean (which can be found at Ocean - World Religions Free Research Library

We are also lucky as Bahais since Baha'u'llah designated a clear successor after he died. This was his son Abdul-Baha whom we also have several writings from and from whom I quoted above.

Edit: There's also a good online site that can do the same thing as Ocean. Bahairesearch.com
 
wil said:
Not once you understand the nature of their belief system. Much like a Christian has compiled Jewish and Christian works and a Muslim utilizes Jewish, Christian and Muslim texts. But each has added their twist, seen the texts evolve in a manner, as has the Bahai.

Tis one of the arguments, they see no disagreement where others see plenty, but others don't see they've interpreted or modified the texts to create harmony over time.
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Well wil, I thank you for your post. But I'm going to have to ask you to provide some concrete examples. I do not agree all about twisting or modifying texts, in fact the exact opposite. I believe that the harmony of religions is self-evident if one looks with an open eye and heart.

So please wil, provide some evidence and examples so that we may discuss further. :)
 
Sean H. said:
Well wil, I thank you for your post. But I'm going to have to ask you to provide some concrete examples. I do not agree all about twisting or modifying texts, in fact the exact opposite. I believe that the harmony of religions is self-evident if one looks with an open eye and heart.

So please wil, provide some evidence and examples so that we may discuss further. :)
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Namaste Sean, I didn't say twist did I? I also have a bent for religious harmony however there are points which are incompatible. For instance do Bahai see Jesus as the one and only saviour which is described repeatedly in the bible? I think you may have different interpretation. I don't have an issue with that, but I believe it to be so.
 
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