JW's, Sccientologists, Moonies.. when does a cult become a religion?

[Tao_Equus]

Try taking care of the bum on the street, or your next door neighbor...then it becomes a big issue, because it becomes personal, and stinky, and messy.

You know those "Haitian boat people", that we should help, as they desperately try for the American shores in overcrowded boats? We should help them, right?

Who, should help them? Your dollar doesn't. A body must. And it is a miserable job, let me tell you...even if they were like children just waiting to be saved, is bad enough, but you deal with the gangs, and the bosses, and the despicable behavior that all men are capable of, and it's right there in front of you, on your own ship, then you have to be police as well as benefactor, and that doesn't go well with the "powers that be"...

Get personal with the refuse of life, get dirty, and have to become mini judge as well as helpmate, then "God" might see you in a good light, no matter what you believe.

...save the whales...****, save man first, then the whales will save themselves...

My dear Q!!

Thats a shot below the gunwhales old sailor!! (sic) I have helped the homeless, (I have more respect than to use your derogative), to the point they have been welcomed and fed in my home. I have helped my neighbours many times, sometimes at real threat of injury to myself. As for gangs I am persistent in trying to bring to light the leaders of a gang that supplies my wider area with narcotics and steroids yet who enjoy the umbrella protection of the church. In the past as a result of that I have been pursued and threatened and still fear for my safety. My public effort of exposure is probably all that keeps me safe. The murder charge failed due to insufficient evidence, or the cowardice of certain individuals, but my own public testimony is on record and protects me to some degree.

I make judgements based on my own internal ethics which I did not choose but was either born or nurtured with. I do not claim to be perfect or even special. I just do what I feel I can do. That I am drawn to help primarily with environmental issues stems from my deep love of the planet we live on and my deep desire to let future generations enjoy it as much as me. So I find it a petty post you "judge" me with. I cannot fight every fight but as a father I do my best to preserve this paradise we have here and now so that future generations can do too. I have no time for doom-mongers who essentially deny any responsibility to give future generations what countless billions before us struggled for, a crack at being alive. Our environment is what makes life worth living. Without all the diversity and beauty of the natural world we are doomed. Life on Earth is an intricate and dynamic web of inter-dependency. If you do not see the importance of the wider environment then I suggest you take a closer look.

My work with the World Development Movement is specifically in the fight to provide clean safe water for all peoples. Having travelled widely, and deliberately seeking out remoter and thus usually more impoverished areas I came to see how important and how valuable is this essential resource, and how often it is lacking.

So as you can see, I hope, I do not merely talk the talk, I walk the walk too. Sorry that I am not a coastguard with a six-shooter and a pump action shotgun "helping" those fleeing the terrible conditions of life imposed upon them by American foreign policy, (and upholding the American way of wasteful, runaway consumption). I do not walk your walk else I'd be...well I'd be you!! But I am not so blind as not to see that you just dont like my tone of disrespect for the whole God notion. You do not like me saying you believe in fairies, demons or angels. You do not like facing the idea you might be wrong. And most of all you hate that I have a rational argument for my point of view that you find very hard to refute. But dont worry bout it buddy... I'm damned remember!!

Tao

 

[cyberpi]

And most of all you hate that I have a rational argument for my point of view that you find very hard to refute.

There is not one single shred of real evidence been provided during the entire span of human history that there is a God.

So Tao_Equus claims himself omniscient, Al-'aleem, sarv-gyaata, sarv-vyapt... surely you see the flawed logic there in your irrational argument... all seeing Tao? Well which is it, are you all seeing or not?

You claim that nobody has evidence that God exists. I claim that you can not prove that anyone has not seen the evidence that God exists... despite your irrational claims. Or is it that you are truly omniscient, seeing all evidence during the entire span of human history?

 

[greymare]

HEY q..... DONT DIS THE WHALES MAN.

 

[Tao_Equus]

So Tao_Equus claims himself omniscient, Al-'aleem, sarv-gyaata, sarv-vyapt... surely you see the flawed logic there in your irrational argument... all seeing Tao? Well which is it, are you all seeing or not?

You claim that nobody has evidence that God exists. I claim that you can not prove that anyone has not seen the evidence that God exists... despite your irrational claims. Or is it that you are truly omniscient, seeing all evidence during the entire span of human history?

You play with words Cyberpi, you know exactly the point I make. Cheap semantics do not an argument make. I claim no special insight, just an absence of the God Delusion. Its not what I have that allows me my points of view but what I do not have.

Tao

 

[cyberpi]

You play with words Cyberpi, you know exactly the point I make. Cheap semantics do not an argument make. I claim no special insight, just an absence of the God Delusion. Its not what I have that allows me my points of view but what I do not have.

Tao

Cheap semantics? Your reasoning was irrational because it had real, physical, giant holes in it. Those holes are the places where you can not see... or have not looked. You claim to see a delusion, or a lack of evidence, where you are unable to really see.

Well, what would you call the person who says he has searched all history for evidence of God? Delusional? Rational? Omniscient? There is a daily history that no man sees.

 

[flowperson]

Mr. Sunshine. You're being pretty unfair to Tao. At least he works proactively to help make the future be better than it appears to be becoming these days. As a nomadic engineer who moves around a lot, do you consult on the construction of coal-fired generating plants ...or something ?

Q...I admit that cleaning up messes made by one's Government in the way back past is a thankless and dreadfull task. I've seen that all firsthand as a volunteer. But as I said above, prospective actions (when well-intended) usually always have more favorable outcomes in the future than do the detrius left over from Colonialism.

flow....

 

[Quahom1]

My dear Q!!

Thats a shot below the gunwhales old sailor!! (sic) I have helped the homeless, (I have more respect than to use your derogative), to the point they have been welcomed and fed in my home. I have helped my neighbours many times, sometimes at real threat of injury to myself. As for gangs I am persistent in trying to bring to light the leaders of a gang that supplies my wider area with narcotics and steroids yet who enjoy the umbrella protection of the church. In the past as a result of that I have been pursued and threatened and still fear for my safety. My public effort of exposure is probably all that keeps me safe. The murder charge failed due to insufficient evidence, or the cowardice of certain individuals, but my own public testimony is on record and protects me to some degree.

I make judgements based on my own internal ethics which I did not choose but was either born or nurtured with. I do not claim to be perfect or even special. I just do what I feel I can do. That I am drawn to help primarily with environmental issues stems from my deep love of the planet we live on and my deep desire to let future generations enjoy it as much as me. So I find it a petty post you "judge" me with. I cannot fight every fight but as a father I do my best to preserve this paradise we have here and now so that future generations can do too. I have no time for doom-mongers who essentially deny any responsibility to give future generations what countless billions before us struggled for, a crack at being alive. Our environment is what makes life worth living. Without all the diversity and beauty of the natural world we are doomed. Life on Earth is an intricate and dynamic web of inter-dependency. If you do not see the importance of the wider environment then I suggest you take a closer look.

My work with the World Development Movement is specifically in the fight to provide clean safe water for all peoples. Having travelled widely, and deliberately seeking out remoter and thus usually more impoverished areas I came to see how important and how valuable is this essential resource, and how often it is lacking.

So as you can see, I hope, I do not merely talk the talk, I walk the walk too. Sorry that I am not a coastguard with a six-shooter and a pump action shotgun "helping" those fleeing the terrible conditions of life imposed upon them by American foreign policy, (and upholding the American way of wasteful, runaway consumption). I do not walk your walk else I'd be...well I'd be you!! But I am not so blind as not to see that you just dont like my tone of disrespect for the whole God notion. You do not like me saying you believe in fairies, demons or angels. You do not like facing the idea you might be wrong. And most of all you hate that I have a rational argument for my point of view that you find very hard to refute. But dont worry bout it buddy... I'm damned remember!!

Tao

What is below the "gun'l" Tao? I've been there, done that, own the tee shirt, and got holes in it...

I don't take cheap shots at anyone. You see me coming for miles. I don't like people poking fun at my God, or people who love God. I get really uptight about that. I think more than you has taken care of this world, some just do it in different ways.

I say so. You speak your mind, and I've spoken mine. What's the problem? And who the hell said you were damned? not me...

 

[Quahom1]

Mr. Sunshine. You're being pretty unfair to Tao. At least he works proactively to help make the future be better than it appears to be becoming these days. As a nomadic engineer who moves around a lot, do you consult on the construction of coal-fired generating plants ...or something ?

Q...I admit that cleaning up messes made by one's Government in the way back past is a thankless and dreadfull task. I've seen that all firsthand as a volunteer. But as I said above, prospective actions (when well-intended) usually always have more favorable outcomes in the future than do the detrius left over from Colonialism.

flow....

No, I rebuild Haitian schools, only to watch them trashed in 24 hours for the wood, so I rebuild them again, with concrete. I've also built homes for outcasts in the middle east, while armed guards watched over my shoulder. My engineering is closer to the heart, one might say...

However, I do have my "signature" on a new ice breaker, in the Great lakes, called the Mackinaw...win, lose or draw, I had a hand in her coming into existence.

My point is, don't slam one's fellow man, for their beliefs. Beliefs don't make the earth crumble, actions do.

And I didn't hit Tao below the gun'l, that was a broad side, that has been coming for weeks. He's not the only one striving to make life better, nor is he fair going after people he disagrees with. And no one ever said he was damned...

 

[Tao_Equus]

Hi Q,

Firstly I know you have never called me damned, nor ever implied it either. Forgive me if my phrasing gave you the impression I thought you had. At least 2 others here have tho, indirectly of course hiding behind the curtain of "scripture".

I know you are a good guy Q, and as well as shoot you can take it on the chin. You are not afraid to hold back in expressing yourself and I have always respected that. But I hope you can get the idea that as much as you believe God exists, and that he is 'good' I do not. I spent most of my life open to the possibility, uncertain and always looking for evidence one way or the other. Now I have come down off the fence and on the side of atheism. I am not certain I am correct but believe that there is not a single shred of evidence to support any other point of view.... for me. And that if he does exist he is a petty, spiteful creature unworthy of any regard if it is in his power to end suffering and injustice. Further I believe that the cost to humanity of the God delusion is not worth the price humanity has to pay for it. I feel this strongly enough to state it as a belief as much as you state yours.

I never did a thing in my life for kudos or karma points. I do what I do because I love life. This love increased enormously with children and my sense of obligation to future generations has become my number one consideration in all I do. Thats what it is all about, or what it should be all about. Loving being alive, breathing in the incomprehensible beauty of the whole cosmos that allows us our little thoughts. And in driving ever forward for progress and allowing future generations to do the same.

End of the world'ers have given up. They threaten the future of our children. And it is all based on the loosest, crassest interpretations of old texts that were written by men not Gods. I find such a threat to be growing both in the US and in Islam and there are very few standing up and calling it what it is... bullshit. And it is only by believing in a future that we can build one. If we allow the proliferation of Armageddon dogma's then they will drag us down. Be hijacked by the powerful and greedy to cause yet more suffering. I do not need God to exist to be either a good person nor happy with my lot. And I genuinely believe the world could be a much better place without the notion of God.

Of course many many people of faith do good deeds. Thats not what my point is. Only that the atrocities that happen daily in the name of faith make the very notion of faith a price not worth paying.

tao


Cyberpi, show me any proof.

tao

 

[Ahanu]

End of the world'ers have given up. They threaten the future of our children. And it is all based on the loosest, crassest interpretations of old texts that were written by men not Gods. I find such a threat to be growing both in the US and in Islam and there are very few standing up and calling it what it is... bullshit. And it is only by believing in a future that we can build one. If we allow the proliferation of Armageddon dogma's then they will drag us down. Be hijacked by the powerful and greedy to cause yet more suffering.

I 100% agree. You may not be as alone as you think. Karen Armstrong has always been one of my favorite writers, and gives great information on why preachers are preaching these literal interpretations from the bible. Please, take 5 minutes of your time to check out this conversation.

Explore The Spirit: 049: Conversation With Karen Armstrong

 

[Nick the Pilot]

"...the atrocities that happen daily in the name of faith make the very notion of faith a price not worth paying."​

--> A wise man once said that more trouble is caused in the world by organized religion than by all other causes combined.

That wise man was right.

 

[Quahom1]

Hi Q,

Firstly I know you have never called me damned, nor ever implied it either. Forgive me if my phrasing gave you the impression I thought you had. At least 2 others here have tho, indirectly of course hiding behind the curtain of "scripture".

I know you are a good guy Q, and as well as shoot you can take it on the chin. You are not afraid to hold back in expressing yourself and I have always respected that. But I hope you can get the idea that as much as you believe God exists, and that he is 'good' I do not. I spent most of my life open to the possibility, uncertain and always looking for evidence one way or the other. Now I have come down off the fence and on the side of atheism. I am not certain I am correct but believe that there is not a single shred of evidence to support any other point of view.... for me. And that if he does exist he is a petty, spiteful creature unworthy of any regard if it is in his power to end suffering and injustice. Further I believe that the cost to humanity of the God delusion is not worth the price humanity has to pay for it. I feel this strongly enough to state it as a belief as much as you state yours.

I never did a thing in my life for kudos or karma points. I do what I do because I love life. This love increased enormously with children and my sense of obligation to future generations has become my number one consideration in all I do. Thats what it is all about, or what it should be all about. Loving being alive, breathing in the incomprehensible beauty of the whole cosmos that allows us our little thoughts. And in driving ever forward for progress and allowing future generations to do the same.

End of the world'ers have given up. They threaten the future of our children. And it is all based on the loosest, crassest interpretations of old texts that were written by men not Gods. I find such a threat to be growing both in the US and in Islam and there are very few standing up and calling it what it is... bullshit. And it is only by believing in a future that we can build one. If we allow the proliferation of Armageddon dogma's then they will drag us down. Be hijacked by the powerful and greedy to cause yet more suffering. I do not need God to exist to be either a good person nor happy with my lot. And I genuinely believe the world could be a much better place without the notion of God.

Of course many many people of faith do good deeds. Thats not what my point is. Only that the atrocities that happen daily in the name of faith make the very notion of faith a price not worth paying.

tao


Cyberpi, show me any proof.

tao

Sorry. You're a good guy too. I get a little emotional sometimes...I'll try to be more, stoic.

v/r

Q

 

[Quahom1]

"...the atrocities that happen daily in the name of faith make the very notion of faith a price not worth paying."​

--> A wise man once said that more trouble is caused in the world by organized religion than by all other causes combined.

That wise man was right.

Really...

 

[cyberpi]

You're being pretty unfair to Tao. At least he works proactively to help make the future be better than it appears to be becoming these days. As a nomadic engineer who moves around a lot, do you consult on the construction of coal-fired generating plants ...or something ?

Is that an invitation to humble myself, or to exalt myself? If it is the latter then I decline. Appears to be plenty of that here.

Cyberpi, show me any proof.

Proof that I exist? That I have a soul? Come on over to the USA and work with me for a month.

 

[greymare]

no , not proof that you exist. proof that a god exists. I have said the same. just show me. Or are you saying that because YOU exist,god exists. Because that to me sounds a little "high and mighty" if youll pardon the pun.

 

[Taosaur]

Further I believe that the cost to humanity of the God delusion is not worth the price humanity has to pay for it. I feel this strongly enough to state it as a belief as much as you state yours.

I could say the same from a moderately pro-religious, non-theist perspective. I see nothing wrong with the father-god concept as an individual's means of engaging the world, but on a global scale the impulse to evangelism, a.k.a. empire, has disastrous consequences. Coupled with end-times disregard for natural resources and a regard for life directly proportional to the odds of conversion, monotheism is clearly, for many of us, the GTTLOE--greatest threat to life on earth.

So while I respect you as human beings and will do everything in my power to preserve your life and freedom, don't expect me to hold your views sacrosanct, because they threaten the survival of everything I know and love.

 

[cyberpi]

no , not proof that you exist. proof that a god exists. I have said the same. just show me. Or are you saying that because YOU exist,god exists. Because that to me sounds a little "high and mighty" if youll pardon the pun.

Then seek your own proof... go work for God.

 

[greymare]

oh I am seeking proof, dopey, thats why Im here. Your argument of "go work for god" is a little simplistic and honestly stupid.

 

[Tao_Equus]

Proof that I exist? That I have a soul? Come on over to the USA and work with me for a month.

I have no doubt that you, whoever you may be, exist. As for a soul that I doubt. You have conciousness and people often confuse that with a soul but with brain death that will be gone and you will be a pile of cells awaiting recycling.

This notion you have of "working for God" you will have to elaborate on. Obviously to me it is a confused idea as I do not believe God exists and you can only at best work for a false assumption. But if good comes of it it is not so bad. But if "working for God" means going out and coercing, bullying, and ultimately lying to people in order to have them purchase some DVD's with a divine message on them then that's a whole other ball game. If you are trying to sell Armageddon to the vulnerable and poorly educated then it is reprehensible.
But I do not know Cyberpi. You seem to hint at a travelling engineer lifestyle but I know almost nothing about you save you like to argue. That's fine I do too. I see it as an important tool in the development of ideas. But, to my knowledge, you have failed to lay your cards on the table and say who you are and what you really do. It is easy to find out who I am, it is well stated over a number of threads. I have nothing to hide. So why dont you stop trying to be so mysterious and let us know exactly what it is that gives you your take on things.

Tao

 

[Snoopy]

As for a soul that I doubt.

Hey, I learnt a new word today. "Reify." Neat huh?

s.