There is no such thing as 'Free Will'

[muhammad_isa]

If God knows I will not choose the red shirt, how is the red shirt an available option to me?

"If God knows I will not choose the red shirt" is a conditional statement.
You are the one who is suggesting it ("if"), so you cannot make any conclusion about
"what is available to choose".
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

If God knows I will not choose the red shirt, I will choose the blue shirt.
If God knows I will not choose the blue shirt, I will choose the red shirt.

The above shows clearly that it could be either of the two options.
i.e. Both options are available.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

or another way of understanding it:

"If God knows I will not choose the red shirt" does not mean that I cannot choose
the red shirt, because if I will choose the red shirt, then the original conditional
is incorrect ("If God knows I will not choose the red shirt" is false)

 

[Aupmanyav]

You are talking of Almighty God. He can make you wear both the red and blue shirts. What is it that the Allah cannot do?
"lā ḥawla wa lā quwwata illā billāh" (All change and power is with Allah).
ḥawla = Hālāt (Hindi/Urdu) = Times, condition.

 

[Tiberius]

"If God knows I will not choose the red shirt" is a conditional statement.
You are the one who is suggesting it ("if"), so you cannot make any conclusion about
"what is available to choose".
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

If God knows I will not choose the red shirt, I will choose the blue shirt.
If God knows I will not choose the blue shirt, I will choose the red shirt.

The above shows clearly that it could be either of the two options.
i.e. Both options are available.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

or another way of understanding it:

"If God knows I will not choose the red shirt" does not mean that I cannot choose
the red shirt, because if I will choose the red shirt, then the original conditional
is incorrect ("If God knows I will not choose the red shirt" is false)

No, because God KNOWS.

In a universe where I will wear the Blue shirt, God has known that I will wear the blue shirt since the beginning of time and everything. There is no way for me to avoid wearing the blue shirt.

Hence, I have no free will.

 

[Thomas]

In a universe where I will wear the Blue shirt, God has known that I will wear the blue shirt since the beginning of time and everything. There is no way for me to avoid wearing the blue shirt.

Categorical error here, as explained.

 

[Aupmanyav]

No, because God KNOWS.

In a universe where I will wear the Blue shirt, God has known that I will wear the blue shirt since the beginning of time and everything. There is no way for me to avoid wearing the blue shirt.

Hence, I have no free will

God can know but does not exert himself. Problem solved.
Why would he care for what 8 billion are doing?
He will check them all, 8 billion and their ancestors (as many billions as that may be), at the end of days (Jesus giving him a helping hand).

 

[Tiberius]

Categorical error here, as explained.

You mean what you said back in post 1174?

Because I responded to that in post 1178.

When absolutely accurate 100% guaranteed knowledge of the future is available, then there is no free choice. Free choice requires more than one option to be available.

 

[Tiberius]

God can know but does not exert himself. Problem solved.
Why would he care for what 8 billion are doing?
He will check them all, 8 billion and their ancestors (as many billions as that may be), at the end of days (Jesus giving him a helping hand).

Why do people always think that the entity that has the knowledge is the one forcing a particular outcome? I never said that.

If God knows what I will wear tomorrow, then I have no choice in the matter because of the existence of the knowledge, not some action by God.

 

[Aupmanyav]

If God knows what I will wear tomorrow, then I have no choice in the matter because of the existence of the knowledge, not some action by God.

That is what I was trying to address. 1. God does not know 2. because presently he does not care.
It all will come up in his moment at the end of days.

 

[Thomas]

Yecause I responded to that in post 1178.

Yes, you responded with "a huge IF" that you didn't address.

When absolutely accurate 100% guaranteed knowledge of the future is available, then there is no free choice. Free choice requires more than one option to be available.

It seems to me you're argument is basically that because an event did happen, the fact that he happened negates free choice in its happening.

But neither you nor I possess such foreknowledge?

When absolutely accurate 100% guaranteed knowledge of the future is available ...

Available to whom, or what?

 

[Faithfulservant]

No, because God KNOWS.

In a universe where I will wear the Blue shirt, God has known that I will wear the blue shirt since the beginning of time and everything. There is no way for me to avoid wearing the blue shirt.

Hence, I have no free will.

You still chose to wear the blue shirt... God knowing that doesnt change that you made the choice. This isnt a science fiction movie where the time space continuum will be disrupted.

 

[Tiberius]

That is what I was trying to address. 1. God does not know 2. because presently he does not care.
It all will come up in his moment at the end of days.

So God is ignorant and apathetic?

 

[Tiberius]

Yes, you responded with "a huge IF" that you didn't address.

Okay, so let's address it now.

Does God have 100% accurate knowledge about my future actions? Yes or no?

It seems to me you're argument is basically that because an event did happen, the fact that he happened negates free choice in its happening.

But neither you nor I possess such foreknowledge?

That's missing the point.

Let's say God knows today what shirt I will wear tomorrow.

He comes and tells you, "Tomorrow, Tiberius is going to wear the Blue shirt."

Now, because he's God, there's no way he can be wrong. That means, whatever happens, I have to wear the blue shirt.

So, tomorrow morning, is it possible for me to wear the red shirt?

Yes or no, please.

Available to whom, or what?

Irrelevant. The fact that such knowledge is possible means that free will can't exist.

 

[Tiberius]

You still chose to wear the blue shirt... God knowing that doesnt change that you made the choice. This isnt a science fiction movie where the time space continuum will be disrupted.

Let's say God knows today what shirt I will wear tomorrow.

He comes and tells you, "Tomorrow, Tiberius is going to wear the Blue shirt."

Now, because he's God, there's no way he can be wrong. That means, whatever happens, I have to wear the blue shirt.

So, tomorrow morning, is it possible for me to wear the red shirt?

Yes or no, please.

 

[Aupmanyav]

So God is ignorant and apathetic?

IF there is a God, then he is not doing anything now, just watching the fun of his acts.

 

[Thomas]

Okay, so let's address it now.

Does God have 100% accurate knowledge about my future actions? Yes or no?

False Dilemma. You're assuming God knows Past, Present and Future as we do.

God, in the classical theistic sense, is a-temporal, there is no past-present-future, just 'now.

That's missing the point.

I don't think it is. Try and follow me in this ...

Let's say God knows today what shirt I will wear tomorrow.

OK. Because 'tomorrow' is as present to God as our 'now' is to us in this moment.

He comes and tells you, "Tomorrow, Tiberius is going to wear the Blue shirt."

OK.

Now, because he's God, there's no way he can be wrong. That means, whatever happens, I have to wear the blue shirt.

Yes, because tomorrow you will decide to wear the blue shirt.

It is not that God of history or whatever pre-destined you to wear the blue shirt, simply that on that day, you made that choice.

So, tomorrow morning, is it possible for me to wear the red shirt?

Yes, it is possible, but on the day you chose the blue.

So God's knowledge of the event is a-temporal, because He knows, if you like, forward and backward in time from the moment you opted to wear the blue shirt.

 

[Aupmanyav]

So God's knowledge of the event is a-temporal, because He knows, if you like, forward and backward in time from the moment you opted to wear the blue shirt.

Impossible to defeat God on his terms.

 

[Faithfulservant]

Let's say God knows today what shirt I will wear tomorrow.

He comes and tells you, "Tomorrow, Tiberius is going to wear the Blue shirt."

Now, because he's God, there's no way he can be wrong. That means, whatever happens, I have to wear the blue shirt.

So, tomorrow morning, is it possible for me to wear the red shirt?

Yes or no, please.

God is outside of time.. to Him its always now. He knows the end and the beginning. He didnt choose the shirt you wear today... You chose it. Its not like He said Tiberius i know what shirt you are going to wear so you HAVE to wear it.

Sounds like Calvinism. Do you know that God knows who will choose Him and a big part of that is that we continue sharing the gospel because WE dont know who will choose Him.

 

[Tiberius]

False Dilemma. You're assuming God knows Past, Present and Future as we do.

God, in the classical theistic sense, is a-temporal, there is no past-present-future, just 'now.

Special pleading.

I don't think it is. Try and follow me in this ...


OK. Because 'tomorrow' is as present to God as our 'now' is to us in this moment.


OK.


Yes, because tomorrow you will decide to wear the blue shirt.

It is not that God of history or whatever pre-destined you to wear the blue shirt, simply that on that day, you made that choice.


Yes, it is possible, but on the day you chose the blue.

So God's knowledge of the event is a-temporal, because He knows, if you like, forward and backward in time from the moment you opted to wear the blue shirt.

So let's say that right now, God comes to you and says, "I absolutely guarantee that Tiberius will wear the blue shirt tomorrow." This is BEFORE I make my choice.

Is my choice tomorrow already set in stone or not?

 

[Tiberius]

God is outside of time.. to Him its always now. He knows the end and the beginning. He didnt choose the shirt you wear today... You chose it. Its not like He said Tiberius i know what shirt you are going to wear so you HAVE to wear it.

Sounds like Calvinism. Do you know that God knows who will choose Him and a big part of that is that we continue sharing the gospel because WE dont know who will choose Him.

Did I say that God makes the choice?

No I did not.

I am saying that God's knowledge means that I don't have a choice.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Is my choice tomorrow already set in stone or not?

Yes .. just like the past is "set in stone".
The past is "set" by our choices, amongst other things .. and so is the future.

Einstein said " "To those of us who believe in physics, this separation between past, present, and future is only an illusion, if a stubborn one".