Jesus is God

mee said:
path_of_one said:
As for the Holy Spirit and mee's comment... I'd ask, if God is non-corporeal (Spirit), what is the difference between a person and a force?
quote]



Does

the Bible teach that the "Holy Spirit" is a person?

Some individual texts that refer to the holy spirit ("Holy Ghost," KJ) might seem to indicate personality. For example, the holy spirit is referred to as a helper (Greek, pa·ra´kle·tos; "Comforter," KJ; "Advocate," JB, NE) that ‘teaches,’ ‘bears witness,’ ‘speaks’ and ‘hears.’ (John 14:16, 17, 26; 15:26; 16:13) But other texts say that people were "filled" with holy spirit, that some were ‘baptized’ with it or "anointed" with it. (Luke 1:41; Matt. 3:11; Acts 10:38) These latter references to holy spirit definitely do not fit a person. To understand what the Bible as a whole teaches, all these texts must be considered. What is the reasonable conclusion? That the first texts cited here employ a figure of speech personifying God’s holy spirit, his active force, as the Bible also personifies wisdom, sin, death, water, and blood. ​




THE Bible’s use of "holy spirit" indicates that it is a controlled force that Jehovah God uses to accomplish a variety of his purposes. To a certain extent, it can be likened to electricity, a force that can be adapted to perform a great variety of operations.


​
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I would have preferred to hear your own take on this rather than cut/paste, but it says the same thing Salty is saying.

So, yeah, that was my point. If God is a Spirit (incorporeal) then the Holy Spirit has no matter. Hence, it may seem like a person, but also a force. We may try to define it, but we can't because we're looking at it from a limited perspective. Because it calls us, speaks to us, hears us... it seems like a person. Because it fills us... it seems like a force. But either way, we are basically applying our rather pitiful ways of intellectually carving up the universe to God, which means we're probably making mistakes in our perspective. Just because it seems like this or that, doesn't mean we have a clue what the Holy Spirit actually IS. All we have is our interpretations of the Bible and our experiences of It.

What I am pushing at here, is that since God is God, He is probably beyond any clear-cut definition of "person vs. force." Maybe the Spirit is person AND force. Maybe neither, but rather something all of its own that we couldn't fathom. Maybe if there is no body, no matter, there is no difference whatsoever between a person and a force. For example, in the above passage, why couldn't a person (the Holy Spirit) fill someone else? After all, many other religions say that spirits can inhabit people. So why not the Holy Spirit? On the other hand, why can't a force speak or hear? In many earth-based traditions, the elements (air/wind, fire, water, earth, etc.) speak to shamans and hear them. So why not the Holy Spirit?

What I see in attempting to define person vs. force as the Holy Spirit is a bunch of assumptions about all these things based in Western ideology and an attempt to classify the spiritual realm (and God, of all things!) like one classifies plants, minerals, and animals. Basically, I just don't buy it. I think the whole thing is more an artifact of our cultural preoccupation with organizing the universe than a spiritual reality.

In the end, the definition doesn't matter because it is the experience of the Holy Spirit that is important.

I think we're getting hung up on semantics.
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mee said:
holy spirit

The general opinion in Christendom is that the holy spirit is a person, "the third person of the Trinity," coequal and coeternal with God. Does the Bible show the holy spirit to be a person? If not, then what is it?

What, then, is the holy spirit? It is not a person. Rather, it is God’s own active force, used by him to accomplish his will. (Genesis 1:2)
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Hey Br.Mee,
If the Holy Spirit is not a personal being, how can an “it” carry on a personal conversation as in Acts 8:29; 10:19; 13:2; 21:14; Revelation 2:7,11,17,19; and 3:6,13,22.

In Christ,
Br.Bruce
 
[BruceMichael] "Does John 20:28 say in the literal Greek that Jesus is “the God” of Thomas?
John 20:28 (Young's Literal Translation)
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

28 And Thomas answered and said to him, `My Lord and my God;' "

No. There is a specific form in Greek called "vocative case" that would have been used if Thomas had been *addressing* Jesus as "My Lord and my God"; the "nominative case" that is actually used indicates that Thomas was *exclaiming* "My Lord and my God" (more likely Adonay Eloheynu "my Lord our God" with a slight translational glitch when turned into Greek).
 
But being full of the Holy Spirit, he gazed intently into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God; But they cried out with a loud voice, and covered their ears, and they rushed upon him with one impulse. And when they had driven him out of the city, they began stoning him, and the witnesses laid aside their robes at the feet of a young man named Saul. And they went on stoning Stephen as he called upon the Lord and said, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!" And falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them!" And having said this, he fell asleep." and he said, "Behold, I see the heavens opened up and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God."​
 
bob x said:
[BruceMichael] "Does John 20:28 say in the literal Greek that Jesus is “the God” of Thomas?
John 20:28 (Young's Literal Translation)
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

28 And Thomas answered and said to him, `My Lord and my God;' "

No. There is a specific form in Greek called "vocative case" that would have been used if Thomas had been *addressing* Jesus as "My Lord and my God"; the "nominative case" that is actually used indicates that Thomas was *exclaiming* "My Lord and my God" (more likely Adonay Eloheynu "my Lord our God" with a slight translational glitch when turned into Greek).
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That may be one view Bob...
For an Answer: Christian Apologetics John 20:28
Answered Thomas and said to him, the Lord of me and the God of me

Not exclamation, but address, the vocative case though the form of the nominative, a very common thing in the Koiné. Thomas was wholly convinced and did not hesitate to address the Risen Christ as Lord and God. And Jesus accepts the words and praises Thomas for so doing (RWP)

Nominative for vocative

Even where the nominative is still formally distinguished from the vocative, there is still a tendency for the nominative to usurp the place of the vocative (a tendency observable already in Homer)....Attic used the nominative (with article) with simple substantives only in addressing inferiors...The NT (in passages translated from a Semitic language) and the LXX do not conform to these limitations, but can even say ho theos, ho patêr, etc., in which the arthrous Semitic vocative is being reproduced by the Greek nominative with article....Jn 20:28 (cf., Rev 4:11) (BDF, pp. 81-82).

About sixty times in the New Testament a nominative case noun is used to designate the person being addressed. The nominative functions like a vocative....The nominative of address is usually preceded by an article (Young, p. 12).

A substantive in the nominative is used in the place of the vocative case. It is used (as is the voc.) in direct address to designate the addressee....The articular use also involves two nuances: address to an inferior and simple substitute for a Semitic noun of address, regardless of whether the addressee is inferior or superior (Wallace, pp. 56 - 57).

In Hebrew typically the noun of address will have the article....In the LXX, God [Elohim] is customarily addressed with an articular nom. (Wallace, p. 57 n. 71).

The nominative for vocative has exactly the same force and meaning as the vocative. This can be seen in numerous parallel passages in the Gospels, in which the vocative appears in one and the nominative in another (see, for example, Matt 27:46 [thee mou, thee mou] and Mark 15:34 [ho theos mou, ho theos mou]).
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"the vocative case though the form of the nominative, a very common thing in the Koiné. "
NOT for "Lord", NOT for "God". Not even in modern Greek, in which the vocative has disappeared for all other words. If the Bible was trying to depict Thomas as "addressing" Jesus as Lord and God, it was deliberately obfuscatory. Is God the author of confusion?
 
Bruce Michael said:
God is not the author of the Bible..
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God is the author of the Bible...

Jesus is never mentioned as being God.

I will now give you the ONLY Scripture you will EVER need for understanding Who Jesus Christ and God the Father are and how many Gods there are, and Who composes that ONE God. Here it is:

"For even if so be that there are those being termed gods, whether in heaven or on earth, even as there are many gods and many lords, nevertheless for US there is ONE God, the FATHER, out of Whom ALL IS, and we for Him, and ONE LORD, JESUS CHRIST, through Whom all is, and we through Him" (I Cor. 8:5-6).

And the next verse says

"But NOT IN ALL is there this knowledge" (Ver. 7)

I will bombard you with quotes that claim Jesus is not God IN THE BIBLE!!

"...I [Jesus] came OUT from God. I CAME OUT FROM the FATHER..." (John 16:27-28).

For there is ONE God, and ONE Mediator OF God and mankind, a MAN Christ Jesus..." (I Tim. 2:5).

"...I am going to the Father, for the Father is GREATER than I" (John 14:28).

"Now I want you to be aware that the Head of every man is Christ, yet the head of the woman is the man, yet the Head of Christ IS GOD" (I Cor. 11:3).

"...that the GOD OF OUR LORD Jesus Christ, the FATHER..." (Eph. 1:17).

Eph. 1:3: "Blessed be the God and Father OF our Lord Jesus Christ"

Col. 1:3: "We are thanking the God and Father OF our Lord Jesus Christ"

I Pet. 1:3: "Blessed be the God and Father OF our Lord Jesus Christ"

Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!" (John 20:28)

Notice how Thomas says My Lord AND my God. Why not My Lord AND God?

You say bob x

bob x said:
(more likely Adonay Eloheynu "my Lord our God" with a slight translational glitch when turned into Greek).
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And why do you think there is a slight translation glitch when turned into Greek?

To claim the Bible is obfuscatory is to claim God is obfuscatory!
 
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Azure24 said:
Jesus is never mentioned as being God.
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God the Father calls the Son God, and all those filled with the Spirit call Christ their Lord God and Saviour and worship him.

In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.

For to which of the angels did God ever say, "You are my Son; today I have become your Father"? Or again, "I will be his Father, and he will be my Son"? And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, "Let all God's angels worship him."

In speaking of the angels he says, "He makes his angels winds, his servants flames of fire." But about the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy."

He also says, "In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands. They will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment. You will roll them up like a robe; like a garment they will be changed. But you remain the same, and your years will never end." To which of the angels did God ever say, "Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet"? Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?
 
Azure24 said:
And why do you think there is a slight translation glitch when turned into Greek?
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If it was translating the Hebrew exclamation "Adonay Eloheynu", it should have read "ho Kyrios mou kai ho Theos ehmou", from which the text that we have ("my" God instead of "our" God) would derive by deletion of a single letter (eta); many copying errors of this kind are in the Bible.
However, if the text was meaning to depict Thomas as *addressing* Jesus, it should read "Kyrie mou kai Thee mou"; contrary to what some rather dishonest apologetics claims, no Koine speaker of the time would think that the text as we have it was depicting Thomas as addressing Jesus by those titles, as opposed to making an exclamation.

Azure24 said:
To claim the Bible is obfuscatory is to claim God is obfuscatory!
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You are mistaken on two counts here. First of all, to claim the Bible is obfuscatory is to claim that THE BIBLE IS NOT GOD.
Secondly, *I* wasn't making the claim that the Bible was obfuscatory in this particular passage: *you* were. When you claim that the nominative usage, which would be understood by anyone reading it at the time to be an exclamation, was meant to be a vocative, which nobody at the time would think, you are claiming that the text was purposely written to be misleading.
 
Azure24 said:
God is the author of the Bible...
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Greetings Azure,
If you want to believe that, then that's your business- it's your matter of faith. Personally I think it's nonsense, based on my studies. Furthermore you can't prove it- even by producing a self referential quote, because none of the authors of the Bible knew it.

The Bible is a library of Holy Books collected over time, written by some inspired authors, altered through time and translation. In the development of the Canon a lot of other books (some excellent) have been thrown out. Who decided that the books they threw out weren't Canon? I'll give you a hint, it wasn't God.

Sola Scripture is a form of idolatry as far as I'm concerned.

>>Jesus is never mentioned as being God.

The answer lies in Christ Himself, not the Book.

In Christ,
Br.Bruce
 
Is Jehovah a spirit? Is he a “personal” being? Is Jesus a spirit? Is he a “personal” being? Is Satan a spirit? Is he a “personal” being? Are Angels spirits? Are they “personal” beings? Are demons spirits? Are they “personal” beings?

—Is the Holy Spirit a spirit? Is He a “personal” being? Why not? Why are all spirits personal beings but not the Holy Spirit?
 
Only God can calm the sea

God
Others went out on the sea in ships; they were merchants on the mighty waters. They saw the works of the LORD, his wonderful deeds in the deep. For he spoke and stirred up a tempest that lifted high the waves. They mounted up to the heavens and went down to the depths; in their peril their courage melted away. They reeled and staggered like drunken men; they were at their wits’ end. Then they cried out to the LORD in their trouble, and he brought them out of their distress. He stilled the storm to a whisper; the waves of the sea were hushed.

Jesus
That day when evening came, he said to his disciples, "Let us go over to the other side." Leaving the crowd behind, they took him along, just as he was, in the boat. There were also other boats with him. A furious squall came up, and the waves broke over the boat, so that it was nearly swamped. Jesus was in the stern, sleeping on a cushion. The disciples woke him and said to him, "Teacher, don't you care if we drown?" He got up, rebuked the wind and said to the waves, "Quiet! Be still!" Then the wind died down and it was completely calm. He said to his disciples, "Why are you so afraid? Do you still have no faith?" They were terrified and asked each other, "Who is this? Even the wind and the waves obey him!"

Jesus is God.
 
BlaznFattyz said:
God the Father calls the Son God, and all those filled with the Spirit call Christ their Lord God and Saviour and worship him.
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Nonsense!

BlaznFattyz said:

The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.
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Jesus being God? Notice how I bolded first the word representation. Representation means to stand for something else, to symbolise, to deputize for...

Also notice how God is identified by 'HIS' and Jesus is identified by 'HE'.

BlaznFattyz said:
For to which of the angels did God ever say, "You[God speaking] are my Son; today I have become your Father"? Or again, "I will be his Father, and he will be my Son"? And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he[Jesus speaking] says, "Let all God's angels worship him."
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This part however...changes, notice i have put the name of who it is refering to as 'He' or 'His' and also who is speaking as it can be confusing. Notice the second he--This cannot be God, for God himself cannot say "Let all God's (as in himself) angels worship him".

BlaznFattyz said:
In speaking of the angels he[Jesus speaking] says, "He[God] makes his angels winds, his servants flames of fire." But about the Son he[Jesus speaking] says, "Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God[As in us], has set you[us] above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy."
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This is the cofusing part "But about the Son"... (I will have to look this up).
BlaznFattyz said:
He[Jesus] also says, "In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands. They will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment. You will roll them up like a robe; like a garment they will be changed. But you remain the same, and your years will never end." To which of the angels did God ever say, "Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet"? Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?
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BlaznFattyz said:
But being full of the Holy Spirit, he gazed intently into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God; But they cried out with a loud voice, and covered their ears, and they rushed upon him with one impulse. And when they had driven him out of the city, they began stoning him, and the witnesses laid aside their robes at the feet of a young man named Saul. And they went on stoning Stephen as he called upon the Lord and said, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!" And falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them!" And having said this, he fell asleep." and he said, "Behold, I see the heavens opened up and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God."​
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How come he didnt see the Holy Ghost standing at the left hand of God?
 
Excuse me... For my error of judgment...the various versions of the Bible sometimes confuse me...(particularly this passage) let me revise:


Heb 1:1 God [FATHER], who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Heb 1:2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son [JESUS], whom [JESUS] He [FATHER] hath appointed heir of all things, by whom [JESUS] also He [FATHER] made the worlds;
Heb 1:3Who [JESUS] being the brightness of his [FATHER] glory, and the express image of His [FATHER] person, and upholding all things by the word of His [JESUS] power, when He [JESUS] had by Himself [JESUS] purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high [FATHER];
Heb 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as He [JESUS] hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they [ANGELS].
Heb 1:5 For unto which of the angels said He [FATHER] at any time, Thou [ANGELS] art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him [ANGELS] a Father, and he [ANGELS] shall be to me a Son?
Heb 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten [JESUS] into the world, He [FATHER] saith, And let all the angels of God worship him [JESUS].
Heb 1:7 And of the angels He [FATHER] saith, Who maketh His [FATHER] angels spirits, and His [FATHER] ministers a flame of fire.
Heb 1:8But unto the Son he [FATHER] saith, Thy throne, O God [JESUS], is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of Thy [JESUS] kingdom.
Heb 1:9Thou [JESUS] hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy [JESUS] God, hath anointed thee [JESUS] with the oil of gladness above Thy [JESUS] fellows.
Heb 1:10 And, Thou, Lord [FATHER], in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of Thine [FATHER] hands:
Heb 1:11 They shall perish; but Thou [FATHER] remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
Heb 1:12 And as a vesture shalt Thou [FATHER] fold them up, and they shall be changed: but Thou [FATHER] art the same, and Thy [FATHER] years shall not fail.
Heb 1:13 But to which of the angels said He [FATHER] at any time, Sit on My [FATHER] right hand, until I [FATHER] make thine[ANGELS] enemies thy [ANGELS] footstool?
 
"Heb 1:8But unto the Son he [FATHER] saith, Thy throne, O God [JESUS], is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of Thy [JESUS] kingdom. "
You are aware, I hope, that "O God" is a medieval interpolation into that verse? (Not malicious: the original had a little grammatical word "os", spelled omicron-sigma, which by a simple copy error got turned into theta-sigma, which was misinterpreted as an abbreviation for "theos", although "theos" does not grammatically fit into the sentence.)
 
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