What is the Christian perspective of Muhammed (pbuh)?

Hello, Pico

The following site can be of great value to you if you want to know about Islam's stand from Jesus's crucfixion....I am lookin forward for your comments:



God bless you,
sis, DB

Sounds like he was making up excuses not to believe in God's only Son.

He said of the passage stating that Jesus was not crucified: "The Muslim believes this categorical Quranic statement to be from God. Hence he asks no questions and seeks for no proof." That sounds like blind faith to me.
 
i feel that you are missing a great deal of creation and the early days of man and the many words of the prophets that announce and detail the life of the saviour by using a text that is limited in its message. and perhaps its a matter of you not knowing more than it is you not believing. let us go back to genesis in the old testament. after the fall of adam, mankind was changed. no longer in the garden of eden having everything provided to them, they had to toil the ground for food, kill and animal to clothe themselves and to eat, and adams days were numbered due to his choice to eat the fruit, and eve was placed under adam and she would have pain in her childbirths--the consequence of sin that we live with today. and through many factors that sin causes man's days to be numbered and eventually die. and from then you see man's days tapering off from the early beginnings of creation to what they are today. this is something we all have to live with because we as humans choose sin. so we have sin and we have death. but it is only thru the grace of god that we find eternal life and forgiveness even though we are all sinners. so if you know that we die and you know that we sin, then you know we all fall short of the glory of god. but god loves us, which is why he made a way for our salvation--the lamb of god, who announced by john the baptist and foretold by the prophets before him.


Hello, brother BF,

thanks to God, I dont miss knowledge about the creation of early days of man sa far as my religion is concerned.......

look, brother, we are of diffirent religions and therefore we have diffirent visions about creation.....It's something beneficial, actually, to know more about each other's religions

Concerning creation of man, and the aim behind it, let me explain the following:

1-In essence, God didnt create man to live in paradise and to be like angels;of no sin. No, brother. According to the Quran, God created man in essence to be tested in this world life. this life was destined not to be eternal for no human being.this world life is a test for us alll; either to do bad or good. the reward to our acts will be on the day of Judgement.the hereafter is the tru, eternal life wherin man will live in eternal hell or paradise according to his/her deeds. so, when God created Adam, it was expected for him to make sins. are you asking why?the answer in the coming point

2-in Islam, the human soul consists of three main degrees which are mentioned in the Quran: the commanding soul, the reproching soul, and the peaceful soul. (the details of this will be in the next post because I have already written it in other post. I ll quote it in the coming post, for the sake of saving time)

3-Do you think,FB, that God is unjust?I m sure you dont. So, how can He be just and punish all humanity in the cause of a mistake they arent responsible for. Adam and Eve' sin are their sin alone, and represented them alone....this is what logic and reason say, and this is what accords with God's justice....in Islam, giving birth, for example, is one of God's beautiful bounties to woman.I can endow you with many Quranic verses which show this, if you want....


These our views about creation of man.. What do you think, brother? If you feel any gap there, please dont hesitate to ask me, for I need to know before you you need,I think...

best regard,
sis,DB
 
Hello again, BF

I didnt mange to copy the post. I dont know why!!! It is in Islam forum, Mattew 26:28 thread, page four..can you copy it for me, please...from "we must ask the question ...." to "..We had sent apostles(to give warning)"...

if you do it, I would be very grateful.I think it's a problem in my PC...

thanks,brother
sis,DB
 
Hello and greetings, DitB.

I think I understand what you're saying. You're saying that God will always rescue those of His people who are oppressed and persecuted. When God allowed Jesus to die in the story of Christianity, God had betrayed His duty.

There are differences, however, between how Islam and Christianity would interpret the death of a prophet or apostle with a mission, character, personality and demeanour like that of Jesus. Jesus' death wasn't seen as a defeat for the cause of Christianity. Nor was it seen as God betraying His people. Instead, God was seen as supporting His people. A Muslim may interpret God allowing Mohammed to die as a sign that He didn't support the cause of Islam. But this has to do with how Muslims see the purpose of Islam. Muslims consider Mohammed to be the Seal of the Prophets, the deliverer of the Final Message. If God allowed Mohammed to die, it would have meant that God didn't support Mohammed. The validity of his message depended on his survival in the face of conflict, oppression and persecution.

But Christianity is not Islam. Christians don't see Jesus as "the Seal of the Prophets" or "deliverer of the Final Message." How Muslims see Mohammed and Islam does not dictate how Christians should see their hero. Jesus' name in Hebrew/Aramaic apparently means "God rescues." The question of whether God supported Jesus' cause depended on whether He supported Jesus' role as "rescuer" of His people.

One of the roles Jesus filled (out of others he pursued) was defending the oppressed and persecuted. Of the oppressed and persecuted, he was particularly concerned about those under the influence of religious leaders who took a dogmatic approach/interpretation of Judaism. Jesus was opposed to the idea of people being enslaved and manipulated by religious dogma. Some people were certainly being persecuted and oppressed because of the social stigma associated with failure to conform to the rules/laws/institutions formulated by the religious leaders. The difficulty of conforming to religious dogma made the lives of many in Israel miserable.

Jesus gave them peace and hope by offering an alternative. They would be his followers rather than conformists to religious dogma. They would no longer have to compete with others for self-worth in the struggle to find a place in the dogmatic pecking order where the better you conformed, the more holy you became. Jesus defended those who couldn't conform. He vindicated them.

But then the day came when Jesus was finally arrested and sentenced to death. But by then his mission was already complete. He had achieved what he had come to do - to rescue his people from oppression and persecution. The crucifixion appeared at first to be a setback in the cause of the oppressed and persecuted. It appeared that God didn't support them. The people felt sad, miserable and defeated again. But then Jesus came back to life. Because they were told that it was God who had brought him back to life, the message was clear: God supported their cause.

The resurrection in the story of Christianity is more important than the crucifixion in this regard. The resurrection would not have happened if Jesus didn't die, but without the resurrection God would not have been able to declare support for the people Jesus liberated from religious dogma. Jesus needed to die to create the irony that although God could allow one of His prophets to die, He could bring them back to life. The enemies of God's people could kill His prophets and messengers, but God could still, in defiance, bring them back to life. God let them win one battle, but they would ultimately lose the war.

The idea that God could have saved Jesus from dying is understandable, but it makes more sense to think he did die in this context. In this situation, Jesus wasn't the only person being persecuted and oppressed. What about the people being enslaved and manipulated by religious dogma? These people needed support. If Jesus really believed in what he said and did then he needed to go the whole way. God's messenger had to be willing to go the distance. Otherwise everything he said and did was a waste. Jesus had to show his people he was willing to pay the price and take the plunge.

In the end, understandably, Jesus couldn't take it. He started crying out to God for help. He asked God to liberate him from the pain. Maybe take him up to heaven. But it would have been unethical for God to have given in to Jesus' selfish cries for rescue, especially after what Jesus had lived for and stood for, said and done. Martyrs have to be martyrs, not people who chicken out at the last minute!!! Despite the pain, however, Jesus didn't recant. He only asked God for liberation. Cut the ordeal short.

(Jesus' crucifixion could be seen as a precursor to that of people sentenced to death in medieval times by the medieval Catholic Church. Just as the religious authorities in Jesus' day were derived historically from an establishment that killed the prophets and apostles, the churches of today are derived from an establishment that, similarly, killed prophets and apostles.:eek: Here we are reading about it all. A lot of Christians of today are repeating what the Pharisaic establishment did to Jesus. Deja vu. Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it.)

A lot of people think Jesus' death was about God forgiving sins. I think that's a misunderstanding. There is certainly a lot said about God forgiving sins, but I don't believe it was because God couldn't forgive sins. I believe Jesus' death had a lot more to do with religious leaders telling people that God can't accept them if they don't conform to their rules, values and principles. Jesus liberated people from being enslaved and manipulated by such dogma. The death and resurrection was God expressing support for this newly liberated bunch of people. So the crucifixion isn't about God's inability to forgive people. It was God saying that He accepts people even if they can't conform to religious dogma. Jesus was already telling people their sins were forgiven even before he was sentenced to die. God already accepted them. The death and resurrection was a declaration of support.

The irony of all this is that Christians are often forced to believe that Jesus died for their sins, or forced to believe that God can't accept them if they don't think that God can't accept them any other way, ....except if they think Jesus' death was somehow essential for God to accept them..... which is in itself a kind of oppression and persecution. It's like contemporary Christians need a New Jesus to be crucified on their behalf to liberate them from religious dogma of today's Christianity.:D:eek:

It's interesting how a slight paradigm shift causes misunderstandings both for those inside, and outside of a religion.



I'm not sure what you mean by jurisprudence. My understanding of "jurisprudence" is that it's usually about legalism and the derivation of rules and laws for a society. I suppose that in this context you're talking about matters of belief and doctrine?

If that's what you're referring to, then what Ahanu said about the crucifixion might come into this. It's interesting to hear that Muslims don't all think that Jesus didn't die. It says to me not only that Muslims don't all commit to thinking Jesus didn't die, but maybe that Islam itself isn't committed either way. Was Mohammed not a mediator between the Jews, Christians and Arabs? If Islam sought to find a resolution for the philosophical dispute between Jews and Christians it should be one acceptable to all parties involved. It would be reasonable in my view if Islam was uncommitted on this issue. I suppose that might be seen as a matter of "jurisprudence."


Hello,Saltmeister,

Actually, if God had let the Jews crucify Jesus(which didnt take place according to the Islamic perspective), I would not see that as God's betrayal to Jesus.I will see that crucifixion as a honour and martyrdom for God's cause.

In the Quran, God teaches us that we are in this world to be tested, and it is only in the day of judgement that we will be rewarded according to his/her deeds.that's why, He let the oppresors,the unjust and the bad live.This world life is temporary, the other life is eternal.look at the following Quranc verse:

3.21. Those who disbelieve in the Revelations of God, and frequently kill the Prophets (sent to them) against all right, and who kill those who advocate and try to establish equity and justice – give them the glad tidings of a painful punishment.


we believe that some prophtes were killed, and that of no shame either to them or to God....on the contrary, It embodies the total and sincere devotion to one's beliefs, that recieves nothing in return,but admiration and respect......


Actually, brother saltmeister, ireally enjoyed reading your posts...it prestented ideas smoothly and clearly....

best wishes,
sis, DB
 
Sounds like he was making up excuses not to believe in God's only Son.

He said of the passage stating that Jesus was not crucified: "The Muslim believes this categorical Quranic statement to be from God. Hence he asks no questions and seeks for no proof." That sounds like blind faith to me.

Hi, brother Pico

thank you for giving me back your impression about the book.....


sometimes, brother, we believe blindly in sb or sth because we test that sb or that sth many times, and we find it reliable....I think this happen with everyone......


Ahmed Deedat isnot a Muslim of blind belief...If you read about him, you will find that he made many debates with Christians all over the world, and for sure he was andowed with proofs and arguments. his faith wasnt a blind one. Moreover, God Himself ask us to use our brain to strenghthen our faith. look at the following verses:

1-"this is a scripture that We sent down to you, that is sacred-perhaps they reflect on its verses. Those who possess intelligence will take heed.(38:29)

2-'in the creation of the heavens and the earth, the alteration of night and day, the ships that roam the ocean for the benefit of the people, the water that God sends down from the sky to revive dead land and to spread in it all kinds of creatures, the manipulation of the winds and the clouds that are placed between the sky and the earth, there are sufficient proofs for people who understand(2:164)...

Also, God doesnt encourage on blind faith. God says:

"When they are told," Follow these revelations of God," They say,"No, we follow only what we found our parents doing." What if the devil is leading them to the agony of Hell?(31:21)

In sum, a faithful believer is the one who uses his/her faculty of reasoning and thinking to undestand...

Peace, brother Pico

sis, DB
 
1-In essence, God didnt create man to live in paradise and to be like angels;of no sin. No, brother. According to the Quran, God created man in essence to be tested in this world life. this life was destined not to be eternal for no human being.this world life is a test for us alll; either to do bad or good. the reward to our acts will be on the day of Judgement.the hereafter is the tru, eternal life wherin man will live in eternal hell or paradise according to his/her deeds. so, when God created Adam, it was expected for him to make sins. are you asking why?the answer in the coming point

It sounds to me that you're saying God created death. I would not want to worship a God of death. The Bible paints a different picture: God created adam and eve in his image: perfect. Adam and Eve sinned against god and sin entered into creation. The penalty for sin is death (so we are the ones responsible for the death and suffering in the world). People are born in the image of their parents (born into sin). People willingly commit sin and are thus deserving of the conequences (God's Judgement). We are not judged for our forefather's sins, but the ones we willingly commit. That is why we need a savior, because of our sin we cannot make it to God on our own.

3-Do you think,FB, that God is unjust?I m sure you dont. So, how can He be just and punish all humanity in the cause of a mistake they arent responsible for. Adam and Eve' sin are their sin alone, and represented them alone....this is what logic and reason say, and this is what accords with God's justice....in Islam, giving birth, for example, is one of God's beautiful bounties to woman.I can endow you with many Quranic verses which show this, if you want....

He punishes us for what we are responsible for, which is our willfull rebellion against Him. Adam and Eve are responsilble for thier sins, as we are responsible for our own sins. We are all guilty we all need forgiveness.

I'm curious about the Islamic view of God's justice. God forgives right? So he's just letting people's sins slide with out doing anything about them? That hardly seems just that wrongdoing is just ignored. If someone was arrested for murder (or any crime) and the judge just let them go with no penalty where's the justice in that?

The God of the Bible is different. He punishes sins. Every sin. No exceptions. Only because he loved us so much he punished himself for our sins so that we can be reconciled to Himself. His law and righteous nature demands that sin be punished and that punishment is separation from himself (death). Luckily our debt's been paid so we can come to him freely without charge.
 
Josephus' historical account

I will be very delighted to recieve your comments on Deedat's arguments, brother

Let us begin by mentioning some historical facts. I suppose it is a blindspot for Deedat because he never mentions this fact. Deedat never mentions Josephus' information or any historical records outside of the bible. I suppose there is a limited amount of information to work on. Josephus was basically a priest who wrote a work called The Antiquities. According to Yamauchi, who is educated in hebrew and history, "Josephus was a very important Jewish historian of the first century. He was born in A.D. 37. . ." (77). Also, Yamauchi said: "In The Antiquities he describes how a high priest named Ananias took advantage of the death of the Roman governor Festus--who is also mentioned in the New Testament--in order to have James killed" (78). James was to be stoned to death. Ananias was a cruel priest out to kill Jesus' influence on the people. Well, Josephus wrote most of his works towards the end of the first century. The Testimonium Flavianum, a work that was also by Josephus, is one of his books. I will quote what is recorded in this work by Josephus.

About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he was one who wrought surprising feats and was a teacher of such people as accept the truth gladly. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. He was the Christ. When Pilate, upon hearing him accused by men of the highest standing among us, had condemned him to be crucified, those who had in the first place come to love him did not give up their afflection for him. On the third day he appeared to them restored to life, for the prophets of God had prophesied these and countless other marvelous things about him. And the tribe of Christians, so called after him, has still to this day not disappeared.

However it is hotly debated by scholars because it contains language that Josephus, a Jewish priest, would not use. For example, it says "if indeed one ought to call him a man." This is an example of an interpolation. It is most likely that the Christians inputed this information due to the popularity of this work with the followers of Jesus. Without the interpolations, it would probably read like this in the original:

About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man. For he was one who wrought surprising feats and was a teacher of such people as accept the truth gladly. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. When Pilate, upon hearing him accused by men of the highest standing among us, had condemned him to be crucified, those who had in the first place come to love him did not give up their afflection for him. For the prophets of God had prophesied these and countless other marvelous things about him. And the tribe of Christians, so called after him, has still to this day not disappeared

So we have a source that is outside of the Christian sources claiming that Jesus died, and the probability that he lived to be over one hundred years of age is zip zero. In the end "how significant are these two references by Joseph? 'Highly significant,' Yamauchi replied, 'especially since his accounts of the Jewish War have proved to be very accurate. . .'" (81).

Source:

Strobel, Lee. The Case For Christ. Michigan: Zondervan, 1998.
 
I'm curious about the Islamic view of God's justice. God forgives right? So he's just letting people's sins slide with out doing anything about them? That hardly seems just that wrongdoing is just ignored. If someone was arrested for murder (or any crime) and the judge just let them go with no penalty where's the justice in that?

The God of the Bible is different. He punishes sins. Every sin. No exceptions. Only because he loved us so much he punished himself for our sins so that we can be reconciled to Himself. His law and righteous nature demands that sin be punished and that punishment is separation from himself (death). Luckily our debt's been paid so we can come to him freely without charge.

I like the way Witness Lee put it:

Witness Lee said:
"But our salvation is based not only upon God's love and grace, but even more upon God's righteousness. Our God is a righteous God. Righteousness and justice are the foundation of His throne (Psa. 89:14). If God were to be unrighteous, His throne would loose its foundation. Therefore, if our salvation in any way involves God's righteousness, it is very strong indeed.
"Suppose you run a red light and are given a $25 ticket. That $25 fine is a righteous penalty, and the law of the land demands that you pay it. If a civil judge simply overlooks your offense and releases you without paying, he is an unrighteous judge. It is not a matter of whether or not the judge loves you; he is bound by the law to collect the fine.
"In the same way, our problem before God before w were saved was a legal one. We had broken God's law by our sin and had thus incurred the law's righteous judgment. According to he law of God, where transgression of the law is, death must take place (Rom. 6:23; Ezek. 18:4). It is not a matter of God loving us, overlooking our sins, and forgetting about the law's judgment. If God were to do this, His very throne would topple. God is bound by His own law to judge sin. What can He do?
"Since God desired to save us and since we could not pay the debt of sin ourselves, He in His mercy decided to do so Himself. Two thousand years ago, Jesus Christ, the incarnate God, came to die on the cross to pay the debt for our sin. Having no sin Himself, He alone was qualified to die this substitutionary death. His death, being reckoned by God as ours, was acceptable to God, and He raised Him from the dead. No when we believe in Christ, His death is counted in God's sight as our own. Thus, our debt of sin is righteously paid, and we are saved.
"Now, can God take back this salvation which Christ has purchased? Absolutely not! Since the debt was paid, for God to demand it again from us would be unrighteous. The same righteousness which formerly called for our condemnation now calls for our justification. What powerful security this gives to salvation! Even a worldly judge would not demand the same fine to be paid twice. Certainly God, the source of all justice and righteousness, cannot do so."
 
Whoever said anything about an ONLY Son is in grave error.


That's what John said:

8Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. 9This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son[a] into the world that we might live through him. 10This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for[b] our sins.

(1 John 4:8-10)
 
That's what John said:

8Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. 9This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son[a] into the world that we might live through him. 10This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for[b] our sins.

(1 John 4:8-10)
Shame on the NIV. Shame on the people who made the NIV. Shame on whoever has quoted from it, including myself. Shame on the NIV. Shame on the makers of the NIV. They are in grave error.

That said, have you read the parable of the TWO Sons?
 
Shame on the NIV. Shame on the people who made the NIV. Shame on whoever has quoted from it, including myself. Shame on the NIV. Shame on the makers of the NIV. They are in grave error.

That said, have you read the parable of the TWO Sons?

It's not just the NIV, but a lot of other translations say "only Son," while others say "only begotten Son," which I think I should have put instead :/

But I assume you're talking about the parable of the prodigal son in Luke, which I have read.
 
Oops!

3. Josephus, a Jewish historian, records in his book of "Antiquities" about "crucifixions" in which he intervened and as a result the "crucified" men were lowered from their crosses. One survived! What had happened to him on the cross? was he crucified? The one who did not die by crucifixion, but an attempt was made to crucify him. Was he crucified? One verb . . . ?

CRUCIFIXION OR CRUCI-FICTION --- By Ahmed Deedat

My bad, DB. Deedat does mention Josephus. Well, just wanted to point that out because I did not see it :)D).

Shame on the people who made the NIV. Shame on whoever has quoted from it

*blushes*
 
The God of the Bible is different. He punishes sins. Every sin. No exceptions. Only because he loved us so much he punished himself for our sins so that we can be reconciled to Himself. His law and righteous nature demands that sin be punished and that punishment is separation from himself (death). Luckily our debt's been paid so we can come to him freely without charge.
This is the image of God as a badly programmed robot. There is the Punishing Module, which has a compulsion to INFLICT PAIN, whenever it sees "sin"; but it is not selective about where the pain is inflicted, doesn't have to be on the perpetrator of the sin, could be on a goat or whatever, as long as pain is inflicted somewhere. Then there is the Forgiving Module, which inflicts pain on itself, in order to fool the Punishing Module and cancel everything out.
 
It sounds to me that you're saying God created death. I would not want to worship a God of death. The Bible paints a different picture: God created adam and eve in his image: perfect. Adam and Eve sinned against god and sin entered into creation. The penalty for sin is death (so we are the ones responsible for the death and suffering in the world). People are born in the image of their parents (born into sin). People willingly commit sin and are thus deserving of the conequences (God's Judgement). We are not judged for our forefather's sins, but the ones we willingly commit. That is why we need a savior, because of our sin we cannot make it to God on our own.



He punishes us for what we are responsible for, which is our willfull rebellion against Him. Adam and Eve are responsilble for thier sins, as we are responsible for our own sins. We are all guilty we all need forgiveness.

I'm curious about the Islamic view of God's justice. God forgives right? So he's just letting people's sins slide with out doing anything about them? That hardly seems just that wrongdoing is just ignored. If someone was arrested for murder (or any crime) and the judge just let them go with no penalty where's the justice in that?

The God of the Bible is different. He punishes sins. Every sin. No exceptions. Only because he loved us so much he punished himself for our sins so that we can be reconciled to Himself. His law and righteous nature demands that sin be punished and that punishment is separation from himself (death). Luckily our debt's been paid so we can come to him freely without charge.


Hello,brother Pico,

I see your point of view about salvation from the very beginnig... I understand it so fully, brother....

I m just explaining the Islamic point of view.....I have many comments on what you sai, brother Pico

1- we believe that God is one and only...It is one God who sent Moses, Jesus and Muhammed....So, we dont make any difference between God of the Bible or the Torah...IT is one God

2-Adam and Eve arent created in God's image.(please go back to Islam thread, matthew 26:38, page four, there you find detailed explanation by me of man's creation, and why man has that willingful desire to sin. I ll be happy if you quote it...I cant do it.. I have a problem in my PC)

3-I think you have a false image about how Muslims regard God's justice because you ignore how they regard the reason behind creation of man. God says:"He Who created Death and life , that He may try which of you is best in deed: and He is the Exalted in Might, Oft-Forgiving;(76:1)." so, we are in this world life to be tested, and we have to do good to gain God's pleasure.

4-Death isnot something bad. on the contary, those who love God yearn for death as they see in it a door towards meeting the beloved God, prophets, and good men. death isnt something to be afraid of. It's just a bus which will take you to the eternal life....death is transition and movement

4- We believe that God forgives and repents. Dont you believe in that. you talked about punishment.look at the following Quranic verse:" If God were to punish men for their wrong-doing, He would not leave, on the (earth), a single living creature: but He gives them respite for a stated Term:when their Term expires, they would not be able to delay (the punishment) for a single hour, just as they would not be able to anticipate it (for a single hour)(16:61)

A.yusuf Ali comments on this:" God's decree works without fail. If He were to punish for every wrong or shortcoming, not a single creature on earth would escape punishment. But in His infinite mercy and forgiveness, He gives respite: He provides time for repentence. If repentence is forthcoming, God's mercy is forthcoming without fail. If not, the punishment comes invetibly on the expiry of the term.let the sinner not think that the respite given him may mean that he can do what he likes. nad that he can escape scot-free from the consequences"

best wishes, brother
sis, DB
 
This is the image of God as a badly programmed robot. There is the Punishing Module, which has a compulsion to INFLICT PAIN, whenever it sees "sin"; but it is not selective about where the pain is inflicted, doesn't have to be on the perpetrator of the sin, could be on a goat or whatever, as long as pain is inflicted somewhere. Then there is the Forgiving Module, which inflicts pain on itself, in order to fool the Punishing Module and cancel everything out.

You got it wrong. There is no compulsion to inflict pain when there is sin, it's sin itself that brings pain and suffering. And since we live in a sin-cursed world (thanks to our own willfull rebellion against God) we live in a world of pain and suffering. It's the consequence for our actions.
 
1- we believe that God is one and only...It is one God who sent Moses, Jesus and Muhammed....So, we dont make any difference between God of the Bible or the Torah...IT is one God

Jesus said, "The Father and I are one. Who ever has seen me has seen the Father." Talk about a mind-trip. One God is three persons. Infinite beings are hard for humans to comprehend.

2-Adam and Eve arent created in God's image.(please go back to Islam thread, matthew 26:38, page four, there you find detailed explanation by me of man's creation, and why man has that willingful desire to sin. I ll be happy if you quote it...I cant do it.. I have a problem in my PC)
Well I completely disagree with you then ;)

3-I think you have a false image about how Muslims regard God's justice because you ignore how they regard the reason behind creation of man. God says:"He Who created Death and life , that He may try which of you is best in deed: and He is the Exalted in Might, Oft-Forgiving;(76:1)." so, we are in this world life to be tested, and we have to do good to gain God's pleasure.
So God did create death then? I would not want to worship a God who created death, that's cruel to intentionally make people go through such a loss.

The Bible refers to death as "The last enemy," and is an intrusion as a result of our sin. Nothing God created.

It also sounds like Islam is a religion of works. "If you live up to this standard then you qualify for God's love." Is that at all accurate?
4-Death isnot something bad. on the contary, those who love God yearn for death as they see in it a door towards meeting the beloved God, prophets, and good men. death isnt something to be afraid of. It's just a bus which will take you to the eternal life....death is transition and movement
Well we yern for death because then we will get to be with God, yes, but we wouldn't need to die to be with God if it wasn't for our sin.

And I can't help but feel like death is not a good thing when I'm at a funeral with all those sorrow, greif-filled people. I don't find emotions liek that good in any sense of the word.

4- We believe that God forgives and repents. Dont you believe in that. you talked about punishment.look at the following Quranic verse:" If God were to punish men for their wrong-doing, He would not leave, on the (earth), a single living creature: but He gives them respite for a stated Term:when their Term expires, they would not be able to delay (the punishment) for a single hour, just as they would not be able to anticipate it (for a single hour)(16:61)

Yes, we believe in forgiveness, but also in God's righteousness. If God doesn't punish sin, then sin must not matter to God. But sin is a big deal to God, so big that God said to Adam and Eve "for in the day you eat of that fruit you shall surely die." God is so Holy he can not even look upon sin, for it is high treason against an infinitely Holy God.

My quote from Witness Lee in an earlier post explains the whole dilema of our sin and God's forgiveness and righteousness. What did you think of it?
A.yusuf Ali comments on this:" God's decree works without fail. If He were to punish for every wrong or shortcoming, not a single creature on earth would escape punishment. But in His infinite mercy and forgiveness, He gives respite: He provides time for repentence. If repentence is forthcoming, God's mercy is forthcoming without fail. If not, the punishment comes invetibly on the expiry of the term.let the sinner not think that the respite given him may mean that he can do what he likes. nad that he can escape scot-free from the consequences"


Yes, God does delay judgement for our sins, being patient waiting for us to repent. But the real judgement for our sins comes at the White Throne Judgement at the end of the Tribulation.
 
Jesus said, "The Father and I are one. Who ever has seen me has seen the Father." Talk about a mind-trip. One God is three persons. Infinite beings are hard for humans to comprehend.
Only three? How... finite.
 
Well we yern for death because then we will get to be with God, yes, but we wouldn't need to die to be with God if it wasn't for our sin.

And I can't help but feel like death is not a good thing when I'm at a funeral with all those sorrow, greif-filled people. I don't find emotions liek that good in any sense of the word.

Pico, I understand what you are saying, but remember that all people do not experience death and loss as you might.

I miss the people and pets I have lost to death, but I also feel joy at their liberation. I miss their physical form, but I still feel connected to their spirits.

For many people, death is transformative but is not tied to loss, and need not be rife with sorrow or bad emotions.

Missing people, whether they are temporarily or permanently gone from one's presence, is a sign of love. It is another form of love, and personally I find that the more I draw close to God, the more I can recognize it as such. And I can feel connected to them and their ongoing love through my love of God and God's love for me. They are with God in the afterlife, and I am with God in this life, and so in a way we remain together always.

I miss them sometimes, but then, I also miss my family that live in other states and I don't see very often. The feeling is not too different when I am properly focused on God- both are recognized, but given to God and so eased from me.

Consider that death may be more difficult for some people than it is for others, that people can reach a place where they can see the transformation of people into the afterlife as a beautiful thing. As Mother Theresa has said, when a person loves and has received love, and has forgiven and been forgiven, they can "die a most beautiful death."

I see no point in pining over what could have been, what might have been, if death did not occur. Rather, I see death for what now can be-- a homecoming. It is the path that leads us back to God, and it indeed can be a beautiful path, filled with gifts to the dying and to those who surround the dying. In working with dying people, I have seen people reunite with the saints, the angels and Christ. I have seen them reunite with their parents, their friends, their pets, their spouses and children. And I have seen them go from an ordinary human being to an extraordinary spirit. Their body ends, but their soul is radiant with life.

Whether God created death or not, it has been since shortly after the beginning and it will continue until the final transformation of life itself. God allows death. And I have seen God make it sublimely beautiful, when I am open to looking at it without clinging to my own selfish desire- that the physical form of this person be with me always. When I give up my own desire and simply love the person who is going to God, and trust God for comfort, I find it is tranformative for me as well. And there is joy and peace in my heart as I see the person go to be with God.
 
Jesus said, "The Father and I are one. Who ever has seen me has seen the Father." Talk about a mind-trip. One God is three persons. Infinite beings are hard for humans to comprehend.

Well I completely disagree with you then ;)

So God did create death then? I would not want to worship a God who created death, that's cruel to intentionally make people go through such a loss.

The Bible refers to death as "The last enemy," and is an intrusion as a result of our sin. Nothing God created.

It also sounds like Islam is a religion of works. "If you live up to this standard then you qualify for God's love." Is that at all accurate?
Well we yern for death because then we will get to be with God, yes, but we wouldn't need to die to be with God if it wasn't for our sin.

And I can't help but feel like death is not a good thing when I'm at a funeral with all those sorrow, greif-filled people. I don't find emotions liek that good in any sense of the word.



Yes, we believe in forgiveness, but also in God's righteousness. If God doesn't punish sin, then sin must not matter to God. But sin is a big deal to God, so big that God said to Adam and Eve "for in the day you eat of that fruit you shall surely die." God is so Holy he can not even look upon sin, for it is high treason against an infinitely Holy God.

My quote from Witness Lee in an earlier post explains the whole dilema of our sin and God's forgiveness and righteousness. What did you think of it?


Yes, God does delay judgement for our sins, being patient waiting for us to repent. But the real judgement for our sins comes at the White Throne Judgement at the end of the Tribulation.


Hello, brother Pico,

you know what? I feel that there is a rope between us, each one of us holds to the different edges of it...sometimes, you pull the rope towards you, and sometimes, I do..:) Each one of us says "this what I think", the other repeats "and this is what I think" :).....

you know, brother, you are a person of strong belief as I feel, and I m happy for that.....belief gives us power to continue and hold on...belief is the rockstone that we rely on to feel secure and safe.....belief is the map, the guideway, the lamb towards the truth......

I have made my image about you: brother Pico is a deep, devout, and comitted Christian believer who believes in the Original Sin,Trinity, Jesus's crucifixion, salvation....., and who sees death as a punishment....He believes that Adam and Eve are created in the picture of God........and he sincerly defends what he believes in....that are the characteristics of a good believer....

I, too, believe in Christianity and Jesus(peace be upon him),but I differ with a lot of ideas that you believe in.....however, difference is of no harm....difference was,is and it will always be till we meet God. God says:"....To each among you have We prescribed a Law and an Oplen Way.If God had so willed, he would have made you a single people, but (His Plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to God; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which you dispute (5:48)"....

I think, brother, that now you have gained an idea about how Muslims regard life, death, man's creation, the trinity, Jesus's crucifixion, salvation, and of course, there are still many things that desrve to be known.....I want to say that by knowing that, you are in fact paving the way, and building a bridge towards good dialogue and communication with Muslims....

Me, in turn, I dont deny that I have learned so much from you all,brethren, and I m happy with this knowledge as it makes me to feel you, and to establish that thin line with you that can make distances between us shorter and shorter.....It's all in understanding, despite difference.......

peace life, brother
sis, DB
 
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