Big Bang and Expanding of Universe

There is no God or Allah that has any meaning outside of peoples homage to such concepts. We have created Gods. And we have created them in our own image. -Tao
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I hold to the thought that existence is infinite… That existence is the one thing existing wherein all things come from and will always exist as part of the motion, changing dimensions and waves of the one thing existing…

Having said that, entities that become self aware and begin to understand the physics of existence will (when they survive long enough) eventually become masters of the universe/dimension that they exist in.

So, along this line of thought, it is entirely possible that there exists a master of the physics of this universe who is interested or concerned with the goings on of our little planet Earth.

While it is true that Humans have amazing imaginations, it is also true, that everything existing makes perfect sense to a master, whether or not this information can be explained to even the most ignorant entities is up for debate .

So, it is possible that there exist Godlike entities, some, because of their experiences, are filled with compassion, understanding and love,
and some are not….
I just hope that the master of this universe ….. is a loving God…
I pray that it is so….

I hold to the thought that there is more to this existence than even the oldest entity will ever know…

In an ever changing existence where Gods may come into being and cease to be, where big bangs are often heard and where imaginations run wild there is only one thing that never changes and that is; the one infinite space existing that all things exist in and is a part of.
~Bruno
 
greymare said:
between you and me, Tao, (and the garden post) sometimes, IT just sneaks up on you and slaps you real hard in the head. (happened to a friend of a friend of mine. LOL. )
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There is actually a big difference between something and nothing. People make their belief choices for their own reasons, ( though they may even be made for them, especially if they are brainwiped early enough). But coming to the conclusion, after many years, that there is not any truth in the teachings of the churches is very different to swallowing their dogma. You do not believe in nothing lightly, or at least I do not. I may play along with the branding at times, but I most definitely do not think no belief to be a religion in itself. The comfort it gives to religionists that I am susceptible to their infection too is theirs not mine. And from what I already know I can say with great confidence they are welcome to my death bed to hear me continue to insist there is no God.

tao
 
Tao_Equus said:
There is actually a big difference between something and nothing. People make their belief choices for their own reasons, ( though they may even be made for them, especially if they are brainwiped early enough). But coming to the conclusion, after many years, that there is not any truth in the teachings of the churches is very different to swallowing their dogma. You do not believe in nothing lightly, or at least I do not. I may play along with the branding at times, but I most definitely do not think no belief to be a religion in itself. The comfort it gives to religionists that I am susceptible to their infection too is theirs not mine. And from what I already know I can say with great confidence they are welcome to my death bed to hear me continue to insist there is no God.

tao
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Well, your solid belief is refreshing. At least there is no doubt where you stand.

And as an aside. I too believe in evolution. The data is massive, and can not be denied. But there is also no doubt in my mind that someone designed the whole thing. But instead of calling it Intelligent design, I rather look at it as "BioLogos".

Religion may be quite flawed, however faith in one greater than self is not.
 
Quahom1 said:
Well, your solid belief is refreshing. At least there is no doubt where you stand.

And as an aside. I too believe in evolution. The data is massive, and can not be denied. But there is also no doubt in my mind that someone designed the whole thing. But instead of calling it Intelligent design, I rather look at it as "BioLogos".

Religion may be quite flawed, however faith in one greater than self is not.
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Its the language Q. "faith in one greater than self". You wear a uniform, you are used to the hierarchical system that church and service installs on the psyche. There is nothing I have seen that points to anyone having the ability to make an informed opinion that there is either a "one" or a many. But the way mankind organizes itself there is always a boss. And when we run out of bosses we create a bigger one, to carry the can or take the credit. Whatever this universe really is I find it mind bogglingly unlikely that it was created for man. So all these anthropocentric notions of God just make no sense if we are searching for truth. They are all tainted with self, we have made God in our own image not the other way round. The reason I say with such confidence that there is no God is because I see no sign of one, not one single shred of evidence to support such a theory. I see mankind's own ego continue to invent ideologies firmly based on self but not one that makes the least bit effort to declare this fact. There may be god(s) or creators but they too must have had their gods or creators, where does it end. You cannot get something from nothing. My belief is these are questions we can never hope to answer. And even if we could they would only create more questions. The gods we have created are not real. They are the imaginary friends of a species in its infancy. We are approaching, I hope, our adolescence and I sincerely hope we can leave these notions behind. Not because I want to deprive people of the very real comfort faith can bring to some, but because the price we pay in death and suffering is too great a price to pay. Religions divide more than they unite and I want to see the unity of man take shape. For I believe the alternative could mean its destruction. Until we remove the psychological acceptance of lies from the religions we cannot remove them from our politics and it is imperative that we do. We have a Global Village and we are out of balance with nature. Without honesty and greater reliance on observable data, or truth, its current unsustainability will become critical. Religions are despite the efforts of a few are in opposition to the unity we now urgently require. And religions are too susceptible to hijacking by the kinds of people we least need having any power. It is irrelevant if there is or is not a creator. We are the custodians of our own destiny and its high time we faced up to that responsibility and stopped delegating it to some self created mythos.



tao
 
Well said Tao....

I want to see the unity of man take shape. For I believe the alternative could mean its destruction. Until we remove the psychological acceptance of lies from the religions we cannot remove them from our politics and it is imperative that we do. We have a Global Village and we are out of balance with nature. Without honesty and greater reliance on observable data, or truth, its current unsustainability will become critical. Religions are despite the efforts of a few are in opposition to the unity we now urgently require. And religions are too susceptible to hijacking by the kinds of people we least need having any power. It is irrelevant if there is or is not a creator. We are the custodians of our own destiny and its high time we faced up to that responsibility and stopped delegating it to some self created mythos. (-Tao)
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Though I am not an atheist, for I cannot rule out that there is a god or a creator or whatever, I too cannot see proof positive that a God or many gods does indeed exist. Humanity is naturally compassionate and kind, loving and generous we don't need religion to produce these traits...

If we are lucky and survive another hundred years I have a feeling that the phrase; "repent the time is at hand" will be replaced with "rejoice we made it." For it is only logical that religion (imagination) will be replaced with wisdom (common sence).
~Bruno

A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it. (Max Planck, 1920)
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Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science. (Charles Darwin, Introduction to The Descent of Man, 1871)
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Bruno's logic said:
Well said Tao....




Though I am not an atheist, for I cannot rule out that there is a god or a creator or whatever, I too cannot see proof positive that a God or many gods does indeed exist. Humanity is naturally compassionate and kind, loving and generous we don't need religion to produce these traits...

If we are lucky and survive another hundred years I have a feeling that the phrase; "repent the time is at hand" will be replaced with "rejoice we made it." For it is only logical that religion (imagination) will be replaced with wisdom (common sence).
~Bruno
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Thank you :)

And I hope we do make it!!


tao
 
well Tao, old buddy (LOL) I am happy to have "religion" in my life, if for nothing else, we wouldnt have this forum and I wouldnt have met all these interesting and wonderful people. So for what its worth,thats my two bobs worth.
 
greymare said:
well Tao, old buddy (LOL) I am happy to have "religion" in my life, if for nothing else, we wouldnt have this forum and I wouldnt have met all these interesting and wonderful people. So for what its worth,thats my two bobs worth.
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And it is worth a lot more than 2 bob ;) :)
 
I don't believe in string theory (and so far it does have to be a belief system lol), but I think the account of the big bang is fairly consistent with the creation of a finite universe.

What worries me about claims that it is all predicted in the Qur'an is that this is completely with hindsight. In other words, what does the Qur'an say about science that hasn't been already worked out? Like quantum gravity for example? God knows science is desparate enough for ideas on this!

The unrolling of the heavens does bear a slight similarity to some of the stuff about membranes, but I don't really count that as science as it makes no falsifiable predictions as yet.

peace and blessings,

qj
 
Quahom1 said:
Just because something is accepted doesn't make it right. The truth is we don't know for fact, and theory is just that, an unproven point of view.

It can't even be considered a postulate. +--+*-+

Is it sound? Yes, as sound as any other theory put out their. Is there proof? perhaps, but we haven't secured it yet. So we keep searching...
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look then their from seeing from your point of view we can't prove any theory because we can't go back to time see if its right or wrong then we have to go with what is accepted ....
 
Tao_Equus said:
I find it more than mere coincidence that the two religions that most like to claim some scientific insight are the two big fundamentalist groups of Islam and Evangelical Christianity. It is part of their sales pitch, their paradigm must be ineffable at any cost, except reason.

Listening to the Muslims and Creationists you see this glassy, impenetrable mind set that in its excitement at its own misplaced cleverness is incapable of reason. They are all really preaching to themselves. And I wonder why they struggle so hard to fool themselves.

I get tired of the "I cant see" or "I do not understand" of such minds. I understand, I believe, why people are religious. And all its causes are evolutionary and social.... and with no evidence to support any supernatural causation. So I say now to the next Muslim or Evangelical that I do know your religion. And I know it to be a product of people not Gods. Saying "god is great" or "praise the lord" is utterly meaningless gibberish. There is no God or Allah that has any meaning outside of peoples homage to such concepts. We have created Gods. And we have created them in our own image.


tao
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Tao it feels very bad to say that you do not reply and just start attacking religion.... why did not you reply to the topic i may not have a point then you tell me why im wrong other then attacking someone's belief i differ with my Christian brother in some parts of belief but that does not mean i say Christians are bad and this and that.....
 
islamis4u said:
Tao it feels very bad to say that you do not reply and just start attacking religion.... why did not you reply to the topic i may not have a point then you tell me why im wrong other then attacking someone's belief i differ with my Christian brother in some parts of belief but that does not mean i say Christians are bad and this and that.....
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Because I heard it all 100 times or more before. And frankly I just get tired of listening to such mindless dribble. I said it as it is. That simple.


tao
 
Back on topic...

I have often said Big Bang theory is flawed. Here is a story that shows forces at work that must be older than and are inexplicable within the context of Big Bang theory.

Mysterious New 'Dark Flow' Discovered in Space | LiveScience

They discovered that the clusters were moving nearly 2 million mph (3.2 million kph)toward a region in the sky between the constellations of Centaurus and Vela. This motion is different from the outward expansion of the universe (which is accelerated by the force called dark energy).
"We found a very significant velocity, and furthermore, this velocity does not decrease with distance, as far as we can measure," Kashlinsky told SPACE.com. "The matter in the observable universe just cannot produce the flow we measure."





tao
 
islamis4u said:
Ayats in the Glorious Quran out of which more than a thousand speak about science.
As far as Quran and modern Science is concerned, in the field of ‘Astronomy’, the Scientists, the Astronomers, a few decades earlier, they described, how the universe came into existence - They call it the ‘Big Bang’. And they said… ‘Initially there was one primary nebula, which later on it separated with a Big Bang, which gave rise to Galaxies, Stars, Sun and the Earth, we live in.’ This information is given in a nutshell in the Glorious Quran, in Surah Ambiya, Ch. 21, Verse 30, which says…. (Arabic).... Do not the unbelievers see…? …. (Arabic)…. ‘That the heavens and the earth were joined together, and we clove them asunder.’ Imagine this information which we came to know recently, the Quran mentions 14 hundred years ago. When I was in school, I had learned that the Sun in respect to the Earth - it was stationary - the Earth and the Moon, they rotated about in axis, but the sun was stationary. But when I read a Verse of the Quran saying, in Surah Al–Ambiya, Ch.. 21 Verse 33, it says…. (Arabic). … ‘It is Allah who has created the night and the day.’…. (Arabic)…. The sun and the moon…. (Arabic)…. Each one travelling in an orbit with its own motion. Now Alhamdulillah, modern science has confirmed the Quranic statement. The Arabic word used in the Quran is ‘Yasbahoon’, which describes the motion of a moving body. When it refers to a spherical body, it means it is rotating about its own axis. So Qur’an says the sun and the Moon, they revolve as well as rotate about their own axis. Today we have come to know that the Sun takes approximately 25 days to complete one rotation. It was Edvin Hubbel who discovered that the universe is expanding. The Quran says in Surah Dhariyat, Ch. 51, Verse No. 47, that…‘We have created the expanding universe’ - The vastness of space. The Arabic word ‘Mohsiana’ refers to ‘vastness’ – ‘the expanding universe.’

May writing about this topic again was not to prove that Quran is book of science, it has some many points which are established now.
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Islamis4us, I was reviewing some of the older posts and I came across this one. I am a bit confused, you said you are studying Computer Engineering. So why are you quoting the Quran with respect to scientific issues ?

There are many great Pakistani scientists:

Pakistan Academy of Sciences - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Why not approach science rationally and look for natural complementary ideas related to religion and philosophy ? It seems like you have the skills and background to do this.
 
Avi said:
Islamis4us, I was reviewing some of the older posts and I came across this one. I am a bit confused, you said you are studying Computer Engineering. So why are you quoting the Quran with respect to scientific issues ?

There are many great Pakistani scientists:

Pakistan Academy of Sciences - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Why not approach science rationally and look for natural complementary ideas related to religion and philosophy ? It seems like you have the skills and background to do this.
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Im no where comparing Quran im just pointing out the basic scientific facts which have been found some years back and trying to tell whats present in Quran which came 1400 years back basic scientific facts...it in anyway doesn't say that Quran is Book of science rather their is some facts which is their in Quran and off course some what proving the Fact that the creator knows its creation and then i if the facts are true then the book is from creator..it seems some what rational approach
 
islamis4u said:
Im no where comparing Quran im just pointing out the basic scientific facts which have been found some years back and trying to tell whats present in Quran which came 1400 years back basic scientific facts...it in anyway doesn't say that Quran is Book of science rather their is some facts which is their in Quran and off course some what proving the Fact that the creator knows its creation and then i if the facts are true then the book is from creator..it seems some what rational approach
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And if someone were to find a something mentioned in the Quran that was not accurate to what we know today, would that disprove that the book is from the creator?

Chapter 86
In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.
(1) I swear by the heaven and the comer by night;
(2) And what will make you know what the comer by night is?
(3) The star of piercing brightness;
(4) There is not a soul but over it is a keeper.
(5) So let man consider of what he is created:
(6) He is created of water pouring forth,
(7) Coming from between the back and the ribs.​

So the Quran is better at astronomy than anatomy?

Chapter 67
(5) And certainly We have adorned this lower heaven with lamps [stars] and We have made these missiles for the Shaitans [devils], and We have prepared for them the chastisement of burning.​

Oops. Sometimes they get the astronomy wrong too.

I don't think you want to go down this path of logic Ii4U.
 
First 4 verses of Surah Tariq is reffered to Holy Prophet (P.B.U.H)
5, 6, 7 are of how human is born how you came into this earth i don't want to go in details you know how...
The Holy Quran

chapter 67 surah Mulk in verse 5 it says about the stars which are like beautiful siting from here and in process you are testyfing a fact that you know stars are much much hotter then sun? and havn't you seen some breaks(i don't know the correct English for that word) but in Urdu we say "totta sitara"

The Holy Quran
 
islamis4u said:
First 4 verses of Surah Tariq is reffered to Holy Prophet (P.B.U.H)
5, 6, 7 are of how human is born how you came into this earth i don't want to go in details you know how...
The Holy Quran

chapter 67 surah Mulk in verse 5 it says about the stars which are like beautiful siting from here and in process you are testyfing a fact that you know stars are much much hotter then sun? and havn't you seen some breaks(i don't know the correct English for that word) but in Urdu we say "totta sitara"

The Holy Quran
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Ii4u, I can respect the fact that you are a literal believer of the Quran. I know many Orthodox Jews, Conservative Christians and Muslims that are literal believers.

But as a scientist and engineer, myself, I have some trouble reconciling the miracles described in these holy books with my knowledge of science. Can you see why I might have this skepticism ?

Also, I am not a believer in the divine giving of the Bible. Can you describe, physically, how this type of action could occur ? It is beyond our scientific experiences.
 
I have little doubt that you can explain why this doesn't mean this and that doesn't mean that. I found those two references after a very short search. And if you want, I could do more searching and come up with more things you'll have to explain away.

My point is if you want to point to a couple of instances where the Quran can be interpreted to describe current scientific theory and claim that proves its divine origin, you have to then reconcile the instances that don't match up to today's scientific understanding and accept that those instances disprove its divine origin.

After all, in a particle accelerator, they don't take one result and call that fact, and the next result and call it allegory and the next result and call it a miracle! Each result must be looked at the same way or else it isn't science.
 
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