The Trinity, from the JW view.

Should You Believe in the Trinity?
Answers such questions as: What is the Trinity? Does the Bible teach it? Is Jesus Christ the Almighty God and part of the Trinity? What is the holy spirit, and how does it function.



this is a good online read if you are interested in knowing the truth about the trinity
 
[FONT=verdana, helvetica, arial, sans serif]Having been created by God, Jesus is in a secondary position in time, power, and knowledge[/FONT]​
 
OK ... you quote a handful of sources, some of your own, who don't hold with the Doctrine of the Trinity.

I can quote shedloads who do, and furthermore I can demonstrate quite easily where the sources you quote are misguided, or mistaken ... so I advise you that is a fruitless course of action.

I can also quote first-hand sources with very anti-JW views, but out of respect have so far chosen not to do so.

I can also offer evidence that your translation of the Bible is deeply and profoundly flawed and self-serving, and not one of your translation committee approaches anything one might call 'scholarship' on the matter.

On the other hand I can quote numerous scholars who think the JW translation is risible.

And you still haven't explained why your organisation favours pagan symbols ...

... nor have you given me the location of the church or churches that show three-headed gods.

Thomas
 
Thomas said:
Keep going, Mee — the more you write about the Trinity, the more you show how little you actually know about it, let alone offer a critique. Sorry Mee, but when it comes to this topic, you are an empty vessel.

The above deities are cosmological, and symbolise the forces and rhythms of nature.

Not what the Trinity does at all. There's not the slightest correspondence. You don't know what you're talking about.


Reference please. What Catholic churches, where?

And whilst we're on the subject, how do you explain your founder using the symbol of the Egyptian sun god 'Ra' on the cover of his books, or the Masonic Knights Templar symbol of cross and crown on the cover of his magazine?

Thomas
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Not to mention that the Egyptians predated Babylon by oh say 1500 years...
 
mee said:
[FONT=verdana, helvetica, arial, sans serif]Having been created by God, Jesus is in a secondary position in time, power, and knowledge[/FONT]​
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No, actually He is one and the same with the Father. However as a "man" He willingly gave up His godhead in order to walk with man as a man and experience all that a man experiences, yet again to show us that we too could rise to the occasion, should we lean on God for support and encouragement. After rising, Jesus assumed His godhead and the transformation confirms it. He recloaked Himself in the mantle of the majestic...in short, Jesus was no longer a man, but once again, fully God. It is so spelled out in the New Testament, and Old Testament that you, like the Jew's find it too simple and therefore unbelievable. After all, God is much more complex than man, right?

lol
 
Obviously the Trinity from a JW's perspective does not exist...that is the loss of some godly and heartfelt believing people. The irony here is that the blind attempt to lead the seeing, and call them "blind" when they choose not to follow...
 
Thomas said:
And you still haven't explained why your organisation favours pagan symbols ...



Thomas
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i am glad to say that Jehovahs witnesses worship in spirit and truth ,and dont need any visible symbols to bow down too.:) and as Jesus said in JOHN 4 ;23-24




Nevertheless, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshipers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for, indeed, the Father is looking for suchlike ones to worship him. God is a Spirit, and those worshiping him must worship with spirit and truth.



yes the father is looking for those interested in truth :) and it is verrrry gooood .

 
Quahom1 said:
No, actually He is one and the same with the Father. However as a "man" He willingly gave up His godhead in order to walk with man as a man and experience all that a man experiences, yet again to show us that we too could rise to the occasion, should we lean on God for support and encouragement. After rising, Jesus assumed His godhead and the transformation confirms it. He recloaked Himself in the mantle of the majestic...in short, Jesus was no longer a man, but once again, fully God. It is so spelled out in the New Testament, and Old Testament that you, like the Jew's find it too simple and therefore unbelievable. After all, God is much more complex than man, right?

lol
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Jesus is most certainly in unity with his father ,and he willingly left his heavenly life to be born as a man on the earth ,and after his father raised him , he sat at the right hand of God as the bible informs us .



He is at God’s right hand, for he went his way to heaven; and angels and authorities and powers were made subject to him.....1 peter 3;22


as we look intently at the Chief Agent and Perfecter of our faith, Jesus. For the joy that was set before him he endured a torture stake, despising shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
hebrews 12.2


But this [man] offered one sacrifice for sins perpetually and sat down at the right hand of God,
HEBREWS 11;12


Who is he that will condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died, yes, rather the one who was raised up from the dead, who is on the right hand of God, who also pleads for us.ROMANS 8;34





I and the Father are one.

Or, "at unity." Lit., "one (thing)." Gr., hen, neuter, to show oneness in cooperation.

JOHN 10;30.



And as he said to the Jews in the verse quoted below,



You are from the realms below; I am from the realms above. You are from this world; I am not from this world." (John 8:23)

yes he lived in heaven with his father, he had a pre-human life in heaven with his father, he was from the realms above .



then I came to be beside him as a master worker, and I came to be the one he was specially fond of day by day, I being glad before him all the time, PROVERBS 8;30



How was the Son occupied during the vast expanse of time before he came to earth?


Verse 30 tells us that he was beside God as "a master worker." What does that mean?

Colossians 1:16 explains: "By means of him all other things were created in the heavens and upon the earth . . . All other things have been created through him and for him."

So Jehovah, the Creator, worked through his Son, the Master Worker, to bring every other creation into existence—from the spirit creatures in the heavenly realm to the immense physical universe, to the earth with its wondrous variety of plant and animal life, to the pinnacle of earthly creation: humankind.

In some respects, we might liken this cooperation between Father and Son to that of an architect working with a builder, or contractor, who specializes in bringing the architect’s ingenious designs to reality.

When we are awed by any facet of creation, we are actually giving credit to the Great Architect. (Psalm 19:1)


However, we may also call to mind the long and happy collaboration between the Creator and his "master worker."



and it was God who resurrected Jesus , not Jesus himself.


But God resurrected him by loosing the pangs of death, because it was not possible for him to continue to be held fast by it.
ACTS 2;24

"God raised this One [Jesus Christ] up on the third day and granted him to become manifest,
Acts 10;40



 
so for jw's is there is one God (the Father) and one god-like man (Jesus) or two Gods who save, judge, forgive, and are unchanging and eternal? who forgives your sins?
 
mee said:
i am glad to say that Jehovahs witnesses worship in spirit and truth, and dont need any visible symbols to bow down too.:)
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They worship according to the word of your founders, your tradition, not God's Word.

By your own example:
mee said:
I and the Father are one.
Or, "at unity." Lit., "one (thing)." Gr., hen, neuter, to show oneness in cooperation. JOHN 10:30.
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No. or "at unity" is not implied by the Greek, that's entirely your own insertion, to make your own doctrine ... it's not there, Mee.

John 10:30:
ego (I) kai (and) pater (father) esmen (are) heis (one)
the verb esmen is the first person plusal of eimi, to be.

So 'at unity' is an invention, inserted into the text. It's not even there in your own interlinear translation.

This is your own tradition, it's not in Scripture.

Revelations 22:18:
"If any man shall add to these things, God shall add unto him the plagues written in this book."

+++

And why pagan symbols on the covers of your books?

And where is/are those church/es you were talking about, Mee?

Thomas
 
BlaznFattyz said:
so for jw's is there is one God (the Father) and one god-like man (Jesus) or two Gods who save, judge, forgive, and are unchanging and eternal? who forgives your sins?
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Good point, considering only God can forgive sins, and God the Father can not look upon sin. That only leaves one other aspect of God that can...Jesus the Son of God. But then that must mean He is God, not just a God-like man...
 
Thomas said:
They worship according to the word of your founders, your tradition, not God's Word.



Thomas
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the bible is the aurthority for Jehovahs witnesses , and all of their beliefs are based on good bible based teachings and it is verrrrry goooood :)
 
Thomas said:
No. or "at unity" is not implied by the Greek, that's entirely your own insertion, to make your own doctrine ... it's not there, Mee.
h

Thomas
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getting back to the original meanings and understanding of the original inspired word of God is what it is all . and it is verrrry goooood :)


Jesus certainly is in unity with his father ,just as his followers are in unity also.
Jesus and his Father are "one" in that Jesus is in full harmony with his Father.

And he prayed that all his followers might likewise be in harmony with his Father, with Jesus and with one another.



in order that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us, in order that the world may believe that you sent me forth. John 17;21


Also, I have given them the glory that you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are one. john 17;22
 
Thomas said:
Revelations 22:18:
"If any man shall add to these things, God shall add unto him the plagues written in this book."


Thomas
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yes the book of Revelation is inspired of God.


Who would dare change a word of what God himself has spoken and transmitted through the one who is now the reigning King, Jesus Christ?


Certainly, such a person would deserve to lose out in the quest for life and suffer the plagues that must come upon Babylon the Great and upon the whole world.
 
mee said:
the bible is the aurthority for Jehovahs witnesses , and all of their beliefs are based on good bible based teachings and it is verrrrry goooood :)
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Then of course you could and can walk away from the JW kingdom hall, any instructions the leaders have given you about conducting your life and who you associate with and go into any church to worship...After all, we all believe in Jesus as savior...right? (lol) Fat chance. You aren't even supposed to be here on CR, let alone fellowshipping with other than JWs. We're all corrupt, and you have yourself one hell of a pickle to get out of.

Ah, the beauty of knowing the truth...means one can go anywhere and worship, without concern about what the locals think or care...but some risk being shunned or outcast...now why is that? Don't sweat it, I know the answer, and so do you...
 
mee said:
getting back to the original meanings ...
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Mee, the words 'in union' are not even in the JW Interlinear Bible Translation ... so how can you say you're not adding words into the text?

You think putting words into the mouth of Christ serves the original meaning? Surely, if that what He meant, that is what He would have said?

'In union' is no part of the verb 'to be'.

I think it is in fact 'verrrry baaaaad' to assume that Christ could not make Himself understood without your assistance. Perhaps the Father should have waited before sending His Son, so He could run everything by you first?

What if I said, "in union of one essence and one substance" ... what then?


in order that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us, in order that the world may believe that you sent me forth. John 17;21

No, 'in union' is not in that text either. More invention.

Thomas
 
Here's a thing ...

The orthodox Christian can posit a Doctrine of the Trinity derived from Scripture, without having to insert words into the text and alter its meaning, rather the doctrine stems from an inspired contemplation of the Word.

The Jehovah's Witness on the other hand, not only refutes that and other doctrines that derive directly from the unmediated text, but to make their own doctrinal claims they are necessarily obliged to insert words and thus invent meanings into the text, which they then unashamedly claim as the original intended meaning.

Thomas
 
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