3.141592653589793238462643383279502884197169399375 10582097494459230781640628620899862

[Tao_Equus]

Re: 3.141592653589793238462643383279502884197169399375 105820974944592307816406286208

I noticed several times you have stepped into stating what 'we' have seen, what 'we' can prove, and what evidence 'we' have. Your words on another thread were:
Quote "There is not one single shred of real evidence been provided during the entire span of human history that there is a God." unquote.

That appears to speak even for the dead and what the dead have allegedly seen. I see a mistake regardless of the subject.

I think you see a mistake because you dont like to consider it true, not because it is not true. The statement hinges on the words "real evidence". Real evidence implies something that can be shown to anyone to provide a compelling case. That simply does not exist.

Seek and you will discover. Pray to the power that you do not see and do not realize you already know, and ask for guidance... with both general and specific, for personal and for others. Every day is a day in school. Realize there are virtues that a person lacks. Seek change, seek improvement, and do good. Seek with honesty of what is good and test whether it is in your own actions and state of mind. Find the person or place where you know the individual is in a pit that you already recognize, who seeks something better, and give. Give so that you are given. Upon being personally given you have received more than proof. It is repeatable, verifiable, and awesome.

I can do all that as an atheist and still get the same buzz you call God.

. the voice of God can be on the lips of anyone, and yet with control of events outside of any man.

But if you go around really really believing that you get medication, and labelled a schizophrenic.

Because it blinds. Pride finds the disagreement and opposing questions uninteresting... disagreeable. Find the good in disagreement as well as in the agreement.

I do not seek out those that agree with me to prop up my ego and nor do I find disagreement boring. We often, in fact invariably, disagree but i do not read your posts and answer immediately, I always read...allow some time for digestion and then reply. I do not disagree or dismiss what you say glibly, but thoughtfully. I make no effort to attempt to make you believe you are wrong, only that I do not share your views. It is you who insists on trying to say that I should look for something that you see yet every time you explain it I find descriptions of things I have already considered at length. I have never pretended to have all the answers, how do your posts read? Yet here I am still talking to you. You may well be a bright cookie and received far better education in certain areas than I, I will not bow to that tho, you will remain my equal, no less, no more. So as an equal I would say to you that before you put pride on my shoulders first examine your own ways.

Tao

 

[cyberpi]

Re: 3.141592653589793238462643383279502884197169399375 105820974944592307816406286208

I think you see a mistake because you dont like to consider it true, not because it is not true.

False. I see a mistake whenever someone says what 'we believe' or 'we see' or 'we know', etc... without really knowing every member of 'we'. That is regardless of the subject. You don't really know everyone who has ever lived, and what evidence existed in their time... do you.

Real evidence implies something that can be shown to anyone to provide a compelling case. That simply does not exist.

I am not stating without real evidence what you have seen, yet you are stating without real evidence what I and everyone who has ever lived has seen. Real evidence is all around you but the evidence alone is not even a proof, and whether or not you are compelled by anything is between you and God.

Imagine a day hundreds of years ago when someone committed a crime and claimed, "there is no real evidence". Yet today someone educated in science has the capability to see evidence that existed all along. So it is with the evidence of God... evidence is all over the place but you claim, "there is no real evidence".

I can do all that as an atheist and still get the same buzz you call God.

False. God is not a buzz.

But if you go around really really believing that you get medication, and labelled a schizophrenic.

If God were to permit that, then I would have to contend with the criminals.

So as an equal I would say to you that before you put pride on my shoulders first examine your own ways.

Before you put that very pride on your own shoulders, first examine the way I am taking.

 

[wil]

Re: 3.141592653589793238462643383279502884197169399375 105820974944592307816406286208

If PI were infinite then the value would be greater than 4. Anything can be divided into pieces of nothing to be infinite. Nothing is infinite. In the space between two words there is an infinite amount of nothing. In the time between two raindrops landing there is an infinite amount of nothing. Nothing is infinite everywhere, anytime, of any thing. There is no shortage of nothing. Nothing is infinite.

Namaste Cyberpi

Is it your moniker that makes you so passionate about pi?

Do we claim Pi is infinite or that its decimal is infinite? If you feel the decimal is not infinite can you please tell us how many places it goes to and what the last number is?

Are you saying 'nothing' is infinite? Or 'no thing' is infinite?

Do define G!d as finite?

 

[cyberpi]

Re: 3.141592653589793238462643383279502884197169399375 105820974944592307816406286208

Is it your moniker that makes you so passionate about pi?

Am I passionate about Pi which does not claim to be atheist, or passionate about Tao who claims to be atheist?

Do we claim Pi is infinite or that its decimal is infinite?

We claim? If Pi is of this universe, and the universe is not infinite, then what makes we think or we claim the decimal of Pi is infinite?

If you feel the decimal is not infinite can you please tell us how many places it goes to and what the last number is?

The decimal of Pi can go for as many places as are permitted by the universe.

Are you saying 'nothing' is infinite? Or 'no thing' is infinite?

Yes I have said that.

Do define G!d as finite?

No. God is not a thing. The symbol or word comprised of 'G, o, d' is a thing of this universe, but the real God I refer to with the word is not. That will surely not help Tao... <sigh>

 

[wil]

Re: 3.141592653589793238462643383279502884197169399375 105820974944592307816406286208

Am I passionate about Pi which does not claim to be atheist, or passionate about Tao who claims to be atheist?

I was referring to cyberpi's passion about pi, which as a number can't quite claim to be anything as far as I know.

If Pi is of this universe, and the universe is not infinite, then what makes we think or we claim Pi is infinite?

Is something continually expanding finite? Is something we have yet to determine the edges of finite? That is a discussion for another thread, in this one we are speaking fof pi which doesn't take on area or mass, it is simply a number whose decimal goes on an infinte number of spaces as defined by the math that utlizes pi.

Pi can go for as many places as are permitted by the universe, which is permitted by God.

Permitted by the universe, does the universe permit? Are you equating the universe to G!d? (not that I mind mind you)

Yes I have said that.

said what? I gave you two choices, you choose both?

No. God is not a thing. The symbol or word comprised of 'G, o, d' is a thing of this universe, but the real God I refer to with the word is not. That will surely not help Tao... <sigh>

What is G!d? if not a thing? Would G!d then be nothing?

 

[Tao_Equus]

Re: 3.141592653589793238462643383279502884197169399375 105820974944592307816406286208

False. I see a mistake whenever someone says what 'we believe' or 'we see' or 'we know', etc... without really knowing every member of 'we'. That is regardless of the subject. You don't really know everyone who has ever lived, and what evidence existed in their time... do you.

I am not stating without real evidence what you have seen, yet you are stating without real evidence what I and everyone who has ever lived has seen. Real evidence is all around you but the evidence alone is not even a proof, and whether or not you are compelled by anything is between you and God.

I never said I did. But by your own words you cannot be sure that they felt as you. History is replete with the ignorant calling ignorance God. It shows that the highest religious authorities were no less superstitious and mistaken than the common man. If even they, with all their pursuit and claims get it so wrong how can any of it be trusted? The fact remains that not a shred of evidence has ever been presented that stands scrutiny by anyone, atheist or believer.

False. God is not a buzz.

Exactly!!

If God were to permit that, then I would have to contend with the criminals.

Criminals?

Before you put that very pride on your own shoulders, first examine the way I am taking.

Taking?


Tao

 

[cyberpi]

Re: 3.141592653589793238462643383279502884197169399375 105820974944592307816406286208

I was referring to cyberpi's passion about pi, which as a number can't quite claim to be anything as far as I know.

What passion... because of my name here? 2 digits is all that is really needed... I prefer 10... on occasion have had to use 16.

Is something continually expanding finite?

Yes. Infinity can not expand, nor contract.

Is something we have yet to determine the edges of finite?

Yes. The word and the thought of something is itself an edge... a division between that something and something else. Thus it is not infinite.

Try dividing anything into pieces of nothing and you will find an edge... that edge says the math and concept of infinity is an error.

That is a discussion for another thread, in this one we are speaking of pi which doesn't take on area or mass, it is simply a number whose decimal goes on an infinte number of spaces as defined by the math that utlizes pi.

Two lies. Show me a circle that has no area or no mass... do you remember the definition of pi? If you claim that pi can not claim anything then why do you say that math can utilize something?

Permitted by the universe, does the universe permit?

In the language of science, yes: Permittivity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Are you equating the universe to G!d? (not that I mind mind you) said what?

No.

I gave you two choices, you choose both?

I've said both. The difference between the two looks like a single, finite, space: (nothing), (no thing).

What is G!d? if not a thing? Would G!d then be nothing?

Not a thing, or nothing, of this Universe. Someone outside of it. Hence again the Universe is not infinite.

Infinity is an imaginary extreme that might look like good math on paper but in the real world it is as real as absolutely nothing. Try dividing anything into pieces of nothing and you will find a real limit... that limit says the math and concept of infinity is an error. An infinite amount of nothing does not even amount to anything.

 

[wil]

Re: 3.141592653589793238462643383279502884197169399375 105820974944592307816406286208

Two lies. Show me a circle that has no area or no mass... do you remember the definition of pi? If you claim that pi can not claim anything then why do you say that math can utilize something?

pi does not have area, pi is a constant that assists us in finding the area. 1/3 is not an infinite number it is 1/3 however its decimal equivilant goes on for an infinite amount of spaces. 0.3333333 if it doesn't please tell me how many spaces it does go on for. hehe and then double it, or cube it and you still won't be there.

Not a thing, or nothing, of this Universe. Someone outside of it. Hence again the Universe is not infinite.

G!d is 'Someone outside for our universe', interesting, hence we found another belief we differ on.

Infinity is an imaginary extreme that might look like good math on paper but in the real world it is as real as absolutely nothing. Try dividing anything into pieces of nothing and you will find a real limit... that limit says the math and concept of infinity is an error. An infinite amount of nothing does not even amount to anything.

Yes but an infinite amount of something is something. We obviously use a different math. And yes while I'll agree I only need a few decimal spaces for most of my work, I do know there are more available should I need to be more accurate and that they have use. And while you don't believe infinity exsits can you cite any others of your mind that are on that page? I am just getting used to the understanding that there are multiple infinities ie the infinite number of odd whole numbers is half that of the infinite number of whole numbers, and the infinite number of prime numbers is a fraction of that....what fraction I wonder?

But as you have been trying to prove your belief in the finite to no avail, do you have some corraboration, some other folks you can site?

 

[Tao_Equus]

Re: 3.141592653589793238462643383279502884197169399375 105820974944592307816406286208

Two lies.

Dude.......get over yourself!!!

 

[cyberpi]

Re: 3.141592653589793238462643383279502884197169399375 105820974944592307816406286208

pi does not have area, pi is a constant that assists us in finding the area. 1/3 is not an infinite number it is 1/3 however its decimal equivilant goes on for an infinite amount of spaces. 0.3333333 if it doesn't please tell me how many spaces it does go on for. hehe and then double it, or cube it and you still won't be there.

I submit that a true constant is finite in both magnitude and definition (decimal places). I see pi as an equation which is never fully calculated within this universe. Outside of this universe... it probably is constant with a known fixed value, but inside this universe the number is always an approximation.

How long does the decimation of 1/3 go on for you asked... for as long as you have the space, the time, and the resource to do the calculation, each of which is finite.

G!d is 'Someone outside for our universe', interesting, hence we found another belief we differ on.

I did not say 'our' universe.

Yes but an infinite amount of something is something.

An infinite amount of something will require all somethings. There could be no something (other thing) outside of the infinite amount of somethings.

And while you don't believe infinity exsits can you cite any others of your mind that are on that page?

Yes.

I am just getting used to the understanding that there are multiple infinities ie the infinite number of odd whole numbers is half that of the infinite number of whole numbers, and the infinite number of prime numbers is a fraction of that....what fraction I wonder?

As I see it, the word 'infinite' you are using does not mean infinite... it simply means the largest possible number that could ever possibly exist... which is finite.

But as you have been trying to prove your belief in the finite to no avail, do you have some corraboration, some other folks you can site?

Prove? Oh hell no. I'm perfectly content leaving it to the mathemagicians who have led you to believing that something here is infinite.

 

[wil]

Re: 3.141592653589793238462643383279502884197169399375 105820974944592307816406286208

.... Outside of this universe... it probably is constant with a known fixed value, but inside this universe the number is always an approximation.

How long does the decimation of 1/3 go on for you asked... for as long as you have the space, the time, and the resource to do the calculation, each of which is finite.

I did not say 'our' universe.

Prove? Oh hell no. I'm perfectly content leaving it to the mathemagicians who have led you to believing that something here is infinite.

Namaste Cybernoninfinitepi,

You've gone a long way to explaining yourself here.

Inside this (but not our) universe it is an approximation and probably a constant outside...

You said this universe, I said our universe other than the possessive which I guess does not exist, what exactly is the difference, were you referring to a different universe than I was? And outside of this universe have you some insight as to the finite nonifinite math that exists and works there? I would think the 'someone' you refer to as G!d out there, would need and infinite something to stand on.

And your last response I am taking to mean you are basically alone in this finite theory of yours, and it applies to not this universe where our infinite math works perfectly welll and the finite lacks, but to this other universe where finite exists.

 

[cyberpi]

Re: 3.141592653589793238462643383279502884197169399375 105820974944592307816406286208

You said this universe, I said our universe other than the possessive which I guess does not exist, what exactly is the difference, were you referring to a different universe than I was?

I refer to this finite universe. Finite size, finite energy, finite mass, finite time for interaction, finite velocity, in summary... a finite universe.

And outside of this universe have you some insight as to the finite noninfinite math that exists and works there?

While here the interactions are limited by resource, time, and neighbor, I can only imagine another world without the thermodynamics, where the interaction would become potentially infinite. It would be potentially dangerous. Something more everlasting could be heaven, and it could be hell. I see that 'could' as not a function of the universe itself, but of the will of the souls that reside in it.

I would think the 'someone' you refer to as G!d out there, would need and infinite something to stand on.

According to Jesus in (Matthew 5:35)... no.

And your last response I am taking to mean you are basically alone in this finite theory of yours, and it applies to not this universe where our infinite math works perfectly welll and the finite lacks, but to this other universe where finite exists.

I don't feel alone. As I read it, both the gospel and the qur'an say the same: this finite universe has a finite shelf life. Science agrees too that there is an arrow of time, and there is an arrow of energy. They go in one direction, and not forever. Per Einstein, infinite velocity is even curtailed against as a boundary. There are also boundaries against anything infinitesimal, discovered at the level of an atom in just the last century.

Math itself is very imperfect with infinity. If infinity shows up in an equation it is usually a mistake... a divide by zero error. The math operators: +,-,x,/, etc... become obsolete or ambiguous with infinity. A unique and very limited math is required to contend with something allegedly infinite. In engineering where math is applied, an infinite result in the calculation does not occur in reality: for example an underdamped oscillation that is increased without bounds will never make it... something blows up and the alleged math no longer applies. Kind of like this video: Image:Tacoma Narrows Bridge destruction.ogg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[cyberpi]

Re: 3.141592653589793238462643383279502884197169399375 105820974944592307816406286208

I should also add that the math of fractions is a generalization that does not necessarily apply to something within this real and finite universe. For instance any fraction of something that is composed of a prime number of particles, or a prime quantum amount of mass, or a prime quantum amount of volume, etc... is actually impossible to divide evenly.

This is similarly the reason for the .33333... in 1/3. It is impossible to divide 10 by 3 evenly, so a base 10 representation of 1/3 becomes an allegedly infinite and thus impossible decimation. For example when you get down to the atom, it may not have 10 parts but if it does then it still can't be divided into 3rds evenly. Every decimal place is an attempt to divide another 10th into 3rds, which never divides evenly. In base 3, or base 6, or base 9, or base 12, etc... then it works. So this infinite series of digits really reflects the fact that something can not really be done... 10 never divides by 3 evenly. Calculating a continuous string of decimal places is just a futile frustration against something designed here to be impossible.

 

[Tao_Equus]

Re: 3.141592653589793238462643383279502884197169399375 105820974944592307816406286208

Calculating a continuous string of decimal places is just a futile frustration against something designed here to be impossible.

Designed!! Ok provide your evidence that this is 'design'. As for futile frustration, perhaps, but even with the vast consecutive string of figures in that decimal no pattern emerges to predict subsequent digits and it has to be calculated conventionally. It is no .33333333 ad infinitum.
tao

 

[cyberpi]

Re: 3.141592653589793238462643383279502884197169399375 105820974944592307816406286208

Designed!! Ok provide your evidence that this is 'design'. As for futile frustration, perhaps, but even with the vast consecutive string of figures in that decimal no pattern emerges to predict subsequent digits and it has to be calculated conventionally. It is no .33333333 ad infinitum.
tao

I wonder if you have considered the square root of (2),... or 3, 5, 6, 7, 8, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24,... or ANY other positive number that is not a perfect square. There is allegedly an infinite number of calculations on an infinite number of numbers, resulting in an infinite number of irrational numbers... there are allegedly more irrational numbers than there are rational... but there are NONE of them in this Universe. None!

If you think that PI of an alleged 'perfect circle' is proof of an allegedly infinite non-repeating decimal... perhaps you have not realized that the circumference to diagonal of every alleged 'square', and most (not all) alleged 'rectangles' is also allegedly with an infinite non-repeating decimal. The math is trying to describe something that is NOT physically real or possible. It is an approximation at best.

The 'root' error is that any number can be divided infinitesimally. A scientist, physicicst or a chemist can realize this by seeing the limits at the small level, yet the mathemagician does not. I wonder why that is. The numbers are 'irrational' for a reason... I wonder if a mathemagician wishes to be rational or irrational. No computer and no brain in this Universe will ever contain or utilize an irrational number... ever. They are all rational numbers... approximations at best of the allegedly irrational. If every single particle or least amount of quantum energy in this galaxy could be used to calculate an irrational number... it would fail. The result would still be rational.

 

[Tao_Equus]

Re: 3.141592653589793238462643383279502884197169399375 105820974944592307816406286208

The result would still be rational.

Once upon a time rational men believed the world was flat, and that the Gods rode in fiery chariots across the heavens. That such an 'irrational' as Pi keeps cropping up in nature surely suggests that this irrationality is a dynamic? Perhaps we will never get the rational behind irrational equations but I am confident that they will in time reveal hidden gems amongst them that are clues to the many mysteries we ponder today and those that will arise in the future. In the meantime.... What does happen when an unstoppable force meets an immovable object?

Tao

 

[greymare]

Re: 3.141592653589793238462643383279502884197169399375 105820974944592307816406286208

its called rugby league.

 

[Snoopy]

Re: 3.141592653589793238462643383279502884197169399375 105820974944592307816406286208

Once upon a time rational men believed the world was flat

According to the Book of General Ignorance (so it must be true!):

“Since around the fourth century BC, almost no-one, anywhere, has believed that the earth is flat.

Belief in a flat earth may not even have actually originated until the nineteenth century. The guilty text was Washington Irving’s semi-fictional The Life and Voyages of Christopher Columbus (1828) which, incorrectly, suggests that Columbus’s voyage was made to prove the world was round.”

For more details buy the book; it’s really good (it’s a QI spin off).

s.

 

[cyberpi]

Re: 3.141592653589793238462643383279502884197169399375 105820974944592307816406286208

Once upon a time rational men believed the world was flat

Good to see you holding out for the possibility of something that you have yet to witness.

 

[Tao_Equus]

Re: 3.141592653589793238462643383279502884197169399375 105820974944592307816406286208

According to the Book of General Ignorance (so it must be true!):

“Since around the fourth century BC, almost no-one, anywhere, has believed that the earth is flat.

Belief in a flat earth may not even have actually originated until the nineteenth century. The guilty text was Washington Irving’s semi-fictional The Life and Voyages of Christopher Columbus (1828) which, incorrectly, suggests that Columbus’s voyage was made to prove the world was round.”

For more details buy the book; it’s really good (it’s a QI spin off).

s.

I'l keep my eye open, love QI ...and Fry's intellect. Thanks

Tao